Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

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Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

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It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[QuietB]

Laughable nonsense, especially when you've invoked anti-semitic tropes yourself in this thread. People who accept the outcome of the Mexican War simply don't want to re-litigate past wrongs from over 150 years ago, whereas Palestinians are being murdered en masse right now. You're essentially arguing that two wrongs make a right, and that the law of the jungle should be standard practice now, simply because it was in the past.

Holding Israel to the standards of 18th and 19th century colonialism is a pretty low bar - that somehow Israel is going significantly lower than.

 

[Saint]

Worth pointing out that everyone involved with negotiations from Egypt, US, Qatar, Palestine, everyone, is saying that Israel have no intention of a deal.

Same with every peace deal prior. Israel either reject it at the last minute or reneg after they sign it.

And Israel want the UN to refuse Palestinian statehood until Israel agrees, but everyone knows Israel would never agree to it.

All of their positions have been exposed as disingenuous. Terrorists run amok in the West Bank while the Govt complains about global anti-semitic threats.

Israel has become the leading cause of anti-semitism and the least safe place in the world for Jews to live.

 

[Saint]

More war crimes shared directly by IDF forces

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Worth pointing out that everyone involved with negotiations from Egypt, US, Qatar, Palestine, everyone, is saying that Israel have no intention of a deal.

Same with every peace deal prior. Israel either reject it at the last minute or reneg after they sign it.

And Israel want the UN to refuse Palestinian statehood until Israel agrees, but everyone knows Israel would never agree to it.

All of their positions have been exposed as disingenuous. Terrorists run amok in the West Bank while the Govt complains about global anti-semitic threats.

Israel has become the leading cause of anti-semitism and the least safe place in the world for Jews to live.

Palestinians are far from faultless...they are such bad tenants, not even their own Islam aligned Neighbours will have a bar of them given the terrorism and civil war they have caused in Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon.

 

[faible]

Those same people are the first to whine about the mighty moderators.

Also suspect a strong convergence of 'the Jews were there first, it's their land' and 'If you don't know, vote no' cohorts.

I can see it now:

'So if they were their first a few thousand years ago, it's their land?'
'That's correct, it's theirs by right.'
'So the Aboriginal people?'
'No that doesn't count.'

 

[faible]

Palestinians are far from faultless...they are such bad tenants, not even their own Islam aligned Neighbours will have a bar of them given the terrorism and civil war they have caused in Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon.

Funny that oppressing people for a few decades will create problems. It's such an unforeseen outcome.

 

[Zidane98]

Worth pointing out that everyone involved with negotiations from Egypt, US, Qatar, Palestine, everyone, is saying that Israel have no intention of a deal.

Same with every peace deal prior. Israel either reject it at the last minute or reneg after they sign it.

And Israel want the UN to refuse Palestinian statehood until Israel agrees, but everyone knows Israel would never agree to it.

All of their positions have been exposed as disingenuous. Terrorists run amok in the West Bank while the Govt complains about global anti-semitic threats.

Israel has become the leading cause of anti-semitism and the least safe place in the world for Jews to live.

This isn't true at all. Isarel have accepted many ceasefire deals, all of which included return of all remaining hostages in exchange for thousands of Palestinian prisoners being released and a subsequent 6 week cease fire. Hamas continue to demand full recognition from the UN and a guarantee of staying in power to reach a cease fire agreement even though the Palestiinian Authority have called them out as basically terrorists.


It is a fact that during the last ceasefire negotiations Hamas attacked the Kerem Shalom border crossing and subsequent aid deliveries which had only been recently reopened after it was damaged during the Oct 7 massacre.


Israel even agreed a permanent end to the war at the end of March conditional upon return of all hostages and an Arab league regional organisation being in charge of security in Gaza. Hamas again refused this, they seem to believe that by starting a war that they should be able to dictate the terms of ending it and if they had it their way they don't even want to agree to not attacking Israel again. After all, the two sides both agreed a truce in August 2022 to not attack each other.

The UN already awarded Palestinian statehood in the past. Maybe it's time for the UN to rule again on statehood and territories, it can be done unilaterally without Israel or Palestine's agreement.

This time around anyone that refuses the UN ruling will have to accept this ends any chance of permanent statehood. There is no better organisation to mediate statehood than the UN general assembly.

 

[QuietB]

More war crimes shared directly by IDF forces

I assume there was a tunnel?

 

[Engimal v3]

To me the Jews are just looking for ways to get back what they see as theirs

To me Israel is trying to kill every Palestinian and reduce Palestine to rubble. They are terrorists, and their supporters are terrorist sympathisers.

 

[Trouto]

They're both sunni muslims though.

Maybe it's true what some say, Hamas is in the state of "Israel's" pocket?

Hamas was allowed to flourish by

I assume there was a tunnel?

lets ask the IDF shall we? I am sure the have a good reason for blowing up this obviously empty place of worship

 

[Trouto]

To me Israel is trying to kill every Palestinian and reduce Palestine to rubble. They are terrorists, and their supporters are terrorist sympathisers.

anyone who is sympathetic to the Zionist actions would howl in outrage if the same actions were being undertaken by, say, Russia in Ukraine.

Or any other 2 countries for that matter

 

[Tiger 79]

'So if they were their first a few thousand years ago, it's their land?'
'That's correct, it's theirs by right.'
'So the Aboriginal people?'
'No that doesn't count.'

And you're not a man with double standards, so we can all ask you, what should happen in both cases?

People who accept the outcome of the Mexican War simply don't want to re-litigate past wrongs from over 150 years ago

So that land theft doesn't count because Mexicans have learnt to accept it? Maybe the Palestinians can learn something from the Mexicans. Accept it now, stop the war, and put an end to the death toll?

 

[faible]

It is a fact that during the last ceasefire negotiations Hamas attacked the Kerem Shalom border crossing and subsequent aid deliveries which had only been recently reopened after it was damaged during the Oct 7 massacre.

Strange you'd omit Israel seizing border crossings and killing (at least) 27 people in Rafah prior to those rockets being launched.

 

[Zidane98]

Strange you'd omit Israel seizing border crossings and killing (at least) 27 people in Rafah prior to those rockets being launched.

Strange you'd link that to a different aid border crossing being attacked by Hamas during cease fire negotiations.

 

[Saint]

This isn't true at all. Isarel have accepted many ceasefire deals, all of which included return of all remaining hostages in exchange for thousands of Palestinian prisoners being released and a subsequent 6 week cease fire. Hamas continue to demand full recognition from the UN and a guarantee of staying in power to reach a cease fire agreement even though the Palestiinian Authority have called them out as basically terrorists.


It is a fact that during the last ceasefire negotiations Hamas attacked the Kerem Shalom border crossing and subsequent aid deliveries which had only been recently reopened after it was damaged during the Oct 7 massacre.


Israel even agreed a permanent end to the war at the end of March conditional upon return of all hostages and an Arab league regional organisation being in charge of security in Gaza. Hamas again refused this, they seem to believe that by starting a war that they should be able to dictate the terms of ending it and if they had it their way they don't even want to agree to not attacking Israel again. After all, the two sides both agreed a truce in August 2022 to not attack each other.

The UN already awarded Palestinian statehood in the past. Maybe it's time for the UN to rule again on statehood and territories, it can be done unilaterally without Israel or Palestine's agreement.

This time around anyone that refuses the UN ruling will have to accept this ends any chance of permanent statehood. There is no better organisation to mediate statehood than the UN general assembly.

While Israel were releasing Palestinian prisoners, they went out into the West Bank and picked up the same amount (thousands of people), some for posting on Instagram and held them in "administrative detention". Hardly sticking to the deal of letting people go. Can you imagine if Hamas went out and kidnapped a bunch more people like the IDF do every week?

What "last ceasefire"? Israel had paused, but not in a deal with Hamas. They attacked Israeli troops. It's a war. All Israeli troops are part of it.

When did the UN award Palestine statehood? US have vetoed it every time. Over 140 countries recognise Palestinian statehood. It's just not official at the UN because US vetoes in the Security Council. The US keeps saying Israel has to agree, but Israel will never agree, so the US is saying "Never".

Israel never made that Arab League offer, Netanyahu repeatedly denies it. That was exactly what was agreed to last week and Israel rejected it. Israel rejects things then denies they have and every other country involved has called them out on it. Just the US hasn't done it formally, just with press releases of "unnamed US sources".

Point out when, for more than a week after August 2022, Israel didn't attack Gaza or take more land in the West Bank? Israel cheats on every deal. Even the settlements are a direct violation of 1993 peace agreement.

 

[Saint]

Strange you'd link that to a different aid border crossing being attacked by Hamas during cease fire negotiations.

During negotiations while Israel was bombing Hamas (and civilians). Why can Israel continue but Hamas cannot.

And don't even get started on the terrorism in the West Bank which goes on every day. But everyone who hates terrorists so much is silent about.

It's outright racism that Palestinians are called terrorists, but Israelis are called settlers.

 

[DangerousD]

Also suspect a strong convergence of 'the Jews were there first, it's their land' and 'If you don't know, vote no' cohorts.

I can see it now:

'So if they were their first a few thousand years ago, it's their land?'
'That's correct, it's theirs by right.'
'So the Aboriginal people?'
'No that doesn't count.'

Straight out of the US playbook

 

[faible]

Strange you'd link that to a different aid border crossing being attacked by Hamas during cease fire negotiations.

Rafah crossing and Kerem Shalom crossing are ~ 3.2km apart.

 

[Tiger 79]

They are terrorists, and their supporters are terrorist sympathisers.

The Jews are defending their land from terrorists (supposed or otherwise) is all anyone can know if they're not in the know.

I don't support anyone in this war, who do you support?

 

[Saint]

The Jews are defending their land from terrorists (supposed or otherwise) is all anyone can know if they're not in the know.

I don't support anyone in this war, who do you support?

You do support Israel. Your tax dollars go towards them. That's why people in Australia have the right to protest their Government's support (and yours and my tax dollars going towards it).

And Palestinians are also protecting their land from Israeli terrorists.

 

[Zidane98]

While Israel were releasing Palestinian prisoners, they went out into the West Bank and picked up the same amount (thousands of people), some for posting on Instagram and held them in "administrative detention". Hardly sticking to the deal of letting people go. Can you imagine if Hamas went out and kidnapped a bunch more people like the IDF do every week?

What "last ceasefire"? Israel had paused, but not in a deal with Hamas. They attacked Israeli troops. It's a war. All Israeli troops are part of it.

When did the UN award Palestine statehood? US have vetoed it every time. Over 140 countries recognise Palestinian statehood. It's just not official at the UN because US vetoes in the Security Council. The US keeps saying Israel has to agree, but Israel will never agree, so the US is saying "Never".

Israel never made that Arab League offer, Netanyahu repeatedly denies it. That was exactly what was agreed to last week and Israel rejected it. Israel rejects things then denies they have and every other country involved has called them out on it. Just the US hasn't done it formally, just with press releases of "unnamed US sources".

Point out when, for more than a week after August 2022, Israel didn't attack Gaza or take more land in the West Bank? Israel cheats on every deal. Even the settlements are a direct violation of 1993 peace agreement.

The UN awarded official statehood to Palestine and Israel in 1948. You are fully aware of this.

As for your claims on cease fires, pretty much nonsense mostly with a bit of propaganda thrown in. Great rhetoric but the reality is pretty much every ceasefire agreement by Hamas has them asking for recognition by the UN, a guarantee to stay in power while also themselves not guaranteeing to launch another Oct 7 attack.

Any reasonable person would assess those demands as ridiculous and clear evidence that Hamas do not want a cease fire.

Your claim about Gaza post Aug 2022 truce is also false. In every instance before the Oct 7 massacre any operations undertaken by Israel were in response to large scale rocket attacks by PIJ / Hamas - ie Hamas breaking truce agreements. Israel had also opened up the Gaza border to Gazan residents for travel to West Bank and/or access to health / employment opportunities in Israel literally one week prior to the outbreak of the current ongoing war. Let's not let facts get in the way of your story though.

 

[Zidane98]

You do support Israel. Your tax dollars go towards them. That's why people in Australia have the right to protest their Government's support (and yours and my tax dollars going towards it).

And Palestinians are also protecting their land from Israeli terrorists.

Our tax dollars also go to aid in Gaza and usually into the hands of Hamas. Anyone who is genuine in wanting the war to stop and protection for innocent civilians in Gaza should be protesting against the actions of both the IDF and Iran/Hamas.

 

[faible]

In every instance before the Oct 7 massacre any operations undertaken by Israel

Settler terrorism included?

 

[Zidane98]

Settler terrorism included?

I did specify Gaza. It's not surprising you deliberately left that part out of the quote. Hamas are not the governing power in West Bank so it doesn't concern them. For the record, settlers need to be charged crimes against humanity and put away for life. That is a separate issue to Gaza though. There was absolutely zero cases of alleged settler terrorism in Gaza in the leadup to the Oct 7 terrorist attack, even you will agree that as a fact.

 

[Saint]

The UN awarded official statehood to Palestine and Israel in 1948. You are fully aware of this.

As for your claims on cease fires, pretty much nonsense mostly with a bit of propaganda thrown in. Great rhetoric but the reality is pretty much every ceasefire agreement by Hamas has them asking for recognition by the UN, a guarantee to stay in power while also themselves not guaranteeing to launch another Oct 7 attack.

Any reasonable person would assess those demands as ridiculous and clear evidence that Hamas do not want a cease fire.

Your claim about Gaza post Aug 2022 truce is also false. In every instance before the Oct 7 massacre any operations undertaken by Israel were in response to large scale rocket attacks by PIJ / Hamas - ie Hamas breaking truce agreements. Israel had also opened up the Gaza border to Gazan residents for travel to West Bank and/or access to health / employment opportunities in Israel literally one week prior to the outbreak of the current ongoing war. Let's not let facts get in the way of your story though.

So you think letting Palestinians out, inconsistently, to work on minimum wage where they pay a third of that for the permit is equivalent to 30,000 illegal new Israeli terrorists moving into the West Bank?

Netanyahu wants unconditional surrender and won't commit to a permanent ceasefire even if every hostage is released and won't commit to acknowledging a Palestinian state run by anybody except Israel. Any reasonable person would assess those demands as ridiculous and clear evidence that Israel do not want a ceasefire, or their hostages back alive.

"In every instance before the Oct 7th massacre any operations undertaken by Israel were in response to large scale rocket attacks by PIJ/Hamas"

An astoundingly ill-informed comment to make.

Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2023 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org