Toast Jonathan Brown appreciation thread

[Skoob]

No one has directly said that - but I just get a general feeling across numerous threads on Big Footy as well as in the media of a signficant over-simplification of what is a complex, uncertain and unsettled area of medical science.

There is no doubt concussion / hits to the head lead to a higher risk of brain related problems. And that multiple concussions make that risk a lot higher. But we here have got no real idea what those risk levels actually are (or even the starting point), and I dare say the medical community are only just starting to seriously look at the issue themselves so I seriously doubt they can put an accurate number on it either.

Yeah they have started to do studies and there are some scary stories that have been written about the NFL and other sports (even soccer players who have headed the ball their whole life). Obviously it needs to be investigated a lot more - but the AFL's current approach seems like it is the best given our current knowledge (apparently often it is getting a second concussion shortly after an initial one that can lead to big problems).

I mean you can throw your hands up and not play any contact sports, you can ignore the risk altogether (like millions of people across the world have basically done throughout history up until pretty recently) or you can just get the most up to date advice from doctors and try to weigh up the potential risk vs. rewards of playing on.

Cheers LOR, didn't mean to sound overly accusing.
Definitely some comments have come across all doom & gloom if he plays on, and the reality is it's just uncertain. The part I hadn't seen was the suggestion that he'd be ok if he stopped now. No-one can answer that.
The other aspect is that as we get older, our values and perspectives change. The answer to the question, "Is it worth it" would also change at some point, both for the sports person and the fans.

I mean you can throw your hands up and not play any contact sports, you can ignore the risk altogether (like millions of people across the world have basically done throughout history up until pretty recently) or you can just get the most up to date advice from doctors and try to weigh up the potential risk vs. rewards of playing on

It is a scary thought that as we travel through time, with the more we learn, what will the human race be like in a hundred years. All the dangers will not only be better identified, but we will become more sensitive and cautious of them. Will we play contact sport at all? Even from a legal point of view, as the world becomes more litigious, what will we be allowed to do?
A bit off track, but this is why I do not understand UFC cage fighting, one little bit. The rules of boxing have become stricter in the face of medical evidence and someone thought it a good idea to start a bare knuckle, kicking allowed, spectacle. Madness.
On JB, it is really up to him & family whether he plays on or not. Whatever the decision, I won't be disappointed.

 

[Dylan12]

A bit off track, but this is why I do not understand UFC cage fighting, one little bit. The rules of boxing have become stricter in the face of medical evidence and someone thought it a good idea to start a bare knuckle, kicking allowed, spectacle. Madness.

A pretty ignorant summation of UFC and MMA in general.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Is it? In the admittedly limited time I have spent watching it, those guys often take some serious shots to the head before the ref stops the fight.

 

[Voss the boss]

love boxing - that is an art and skill imo, refuse to watch UFC, so brutal and inhuman - horrible sport.

 

[Hollow Knight]

love boxing - that is an art and skill imo, refuse to watch UFC, so brutal and inhuman - horrible sport.

I'm sure there is plenty of art and strategy to MMA as well, and as a non-fan I am reluctant to argue otherwise. But it would be foolish to argue that they aren't risking serious injury.

 

[Ironmonger]

A bit off track, but this is why I do not understand UFC cage fighting, one little bit. The rules of boxing have become stricter in the face of medical evidence and someone thought it a good idea to start a bare knuckle, kicking allowed, spectacle. Madness.

I couldn't care less about the idiotic 'sport' of MMA, but one easy way to reduce the number of head injuries in boxing would be to get rid of the gloves.

Won't be too many hard hits to the head when you have to belt your fragile knuckles into someone's rock-hard skull.

 

[Skoob]

A pretty ignorant summation of UFC and MMA in general.

I have seen it, not just read about it somewhere.
I have seen blokes (and women for that matter) punch and kick each other, with no padded protection, resulting in their opponents having blood flowing from their heads. I don't think I need to know any more than that.

Add to that, that the "sport" has been so glamorously promoted that some Yanks are letting their 6,7 and 8 year olds get involved (by using a loophole to avoid its illegality), it's pretty disgusting. IMO.

 

[Skoob]

I couldn't care less about the idiotic 'sport' of MMA, but one easy way to reduce the number of head injuries in boxing would be to get rid of the gloves.

Won't be too many hard hits to the head when you have to belt your fragile knuckles into someone's rock-hard skull.

I understand the theory behind that, though I suspect the nature of injuries changes. I'll take your word on this.


Edit: I don't support boxing either, gloves or no gloves, BTW.

 

[Kevvo]

I know this has diverted far from the point of the thread, but I think this is telling.

The Toronto researchers, who examined UFC matches, found the time from a knockout blow -- often a punch to the jaw -- until matches were stopped averaged 3.5 seconds with losers on average getting hit 2.6 more times to the head. With TKOs, they found that in the last 30 seconds before a match was stopped the loser was hit on average 18.5 times, 92 percent of those to the head.

You may skillfully hit someone 3 times in the head after a knockout blow, but it remains stupid and bloodthirsty.

 

[Tairy Greene]

Yeah there has been a few articles about gloves v. gloveless fights and the trauma caused to the head as a result. Usually going gloveless results in bruised and broken knuckles before any considerable damage to the head happens. Hitting someone in the temple or jaw has other consequences, on top of that, elbowing or kneeing someone in the head is much worse than punching.

 

[POBT]

I want Browny to make the right decision for himself, his health and his family. I suspect that we're all in the same boat - the media, club people, fans etc.

But that groundswell of "we just want the right thing for Browny" is starting to transform a bit to "you've only got one option Browny - retire."

At the end of the day, it is his decision. He's an adult, surrounded by people who will give him great advice and doctors who presumably have given him every piece of medical information he needs to make an informed decision. But, in the (probably unlikely) event that he does decide to stay on, I hope that the footy world accepts his decision.

My gut feel is that if he plays again, he'll face all sorts of moralising and "won't somebody think of the children/Kylie" type statements. I don't think that is fair. Everyone is entitled to make their own health decisions.

We all want what is best for Browny but it is his decision and, if he makes the unexpected decision to play again, we should respect him for that and not judge him for making a decision that we don't agree with.

 

[winged1]

I couldn't care less about the idiotic 'sport' of MMA, but one easy way to reduce the number of head injuries in boxing would be to get rid of the gloves.

Won't be too many hard hits to the head when you have to belt your fragile knuckles into someone's rock-hard skull.

Yes the gloves and more importantly the wraps protect the hands so you can punch longer, but because of the size and weight of gloves it is easier to block and slip punches. You would get a lot more cuts in bare knuckle and likely more landed shots (until your hands gave out).

There was a case in NY Resto vs Collins where they removed padding from the gloves of Resto but the fighters hands were wrapped. Collins didn't fight again. Panama Lewis the trainer was banned for life.

Another issue is loading the wraps with plaster of paris, which is why Antonio Margarito was banned after his fight with Cotto.

So it's not so much the gloves as the wraps that protect your hands.

 

[Hollow Knight]

My gut feel is that if he plays again, he'll face all sorts of moralising and "won't somebody think of the children/Kylie" type statements. I don't think that is fair. Everyone is entitled to make their own health decisions.

We all want what is best for Browny but it is his decision and, if he makes the unexpected decision to play again, we should respect him for that and not judge him for making a decision that we don't agree with.

Yep, I nearly posted something very similar last night.

You just know there are a bunch of snipers on the main board waiting to call him a selfish idiot with a hero complex if he goes on. He attracts the short poppies like few others.

As I said already, it's his life, his call.

A lot of people have rushed to frame the whole thing as "he doesn't owe us anything". That's very nice and I agree, but maybe he wants to play on for himself. For all we know, the most terrifying fear Browny might have is that he didn't leave absolutely every last ounce of what he had on the footy field. He is a competitive beast and you're a long time retired.

EDIT: FWIW (not much) as a brief side note on factual accuracy, for at least one of those head injuries, Browny didn't even get a concussion.

 

[Ironmonger]

I want Browny to make the right decision for himself, his health and his family. I suspect that we're all in the same boat - the media, club people, fans etc.

But that groundswell of "we just want the right thing for Browny" is starting to transform a bit to "you've only got one option Browny - retire."

At the end of the day, it is his decision. He's an adult, surrounded by people who will give him great advice and doctors who presumably have given him every piece of medical information he needs to make an informed decision. But, in the (probably unlikely) event that he does decide to stay on, I hope that the footy world accepts his decision.

My gut feel is that if he plays again, he'll face all sorts of moralising and "won't somebody think of the children/Kylie" type statements. I don't think that is fair. Everyone is entitled to make their own health decisions.

We all want what is best for Browny but it is his decision and, if he makes the unexpected decision to play again, we should respect him for that and not judge him for making a decision that we don't agree with.

I agree with the principle of medical self-autonomy, but within the bubble of a football club it's possible to overemphasise the needs of the footy club and underemphasise your own health and safety. I reckon that factor played a part in the Essendon supplements program.

In most cases I can think of, if someone had copped four bad head knocks in four (five?) years in their profession, you'd pretty much say at that point that that's it, don't do it again. And yep, I reckon if you knew someone like that, whatever they did, you'd question them if they kept going in that profession.

Some amount of external concern is healthy, in my opinion. I'm not sure exactly what the right amount is.

 

[Pacman82]

The Duck just reported on MMM that Lethal spoke to Browny the other day. Lethal said that Brown was leaning towards playing on.

 

[Last of the Roys]

The Duck just reported on MMM that Lethal spoke to Browny the other day. Lethal said that Brown was leaning towards playing on.

I was just about to post - in case people hadn't seen / heard:

- Lethal was reported yesterday in the Herald Sun as having told Browny he thinks he should retire.
- I heard Vossy on SEN briefly this morning. He told Robbo that he hadn't spoken to Browny (although he did text him), as he thought he already had too many people telling him what to do and knowing Browny he might just play on as he is so competitive.

Oh he did say something interesting which I had picked up on as well. It was really Brown himself who started all the speculation off from his Sunday Footy Show interview - admitting that he would think about whether to retire or not. Voss said normally Browny gives off the bullet proof persona - so for him to say that publiclly means he is definitely seriously considering it.

Given his wife is about to have another baby any moment / and with all this retirement stuff going on as well, you could easily see Browny having another 1-2 weeks off to decide. Although part of me thinks if you take that long the decision seems obvious.

Another part of me thinks come back and play against North at the Gabba and Richmond at the MCG as a farewell, and yet another part thinks he should just play on regardless.

In the end it is up to Browny himself and that is fine with me.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Part of me wants him to sign a three year contract extension just as a middle-finger to all the media blowhards using his personal situation as fodder to justify their existence as dial-a-quote hacks.

 

[Skoob]

I don't get the calls for a "farewell" game.
If he is going to play 1, he may as well play 8.
He simply either retires or he doesn't.

 

[POBT]

I don't get the calls for a "farewell" game.
If he is going to play 1, he may as well play 8.
He simply either retires or he doesn't.

Me either. In fact, I reckon this is the least likely outcome. It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing Browny would do.

 

[luthor]

Me either. In fact, I reckon this is the least likely outcome. It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing Browny would do.

I just can't see it either.

And what is the deal with this "farewell game" stuff anyway?

Seems that at least some of the know-alls who are urging him to hang up the boots for "health reasons" are quite happy for him to risk more serious damage in the interests of having a glory trip on the way out.

Doesn't make sense.

As Skoob said, retire or don't.

 

[John]

Farewell games IMO with a big emphasis on that S. He can be the Kiss of the footy world and from now on we can promote each match we get out of him as a farewell just like Kiss tour.

 

[Skoob]

Farewell games IMO with a big emphasis on that S. He can be the Kiss of the footy world and from now on we can promote each match we get out of him as a farewell just like Kiss tour.

Farnham.

At least we won't have to worry about a Mal Michael style retirement.

 

[Cousin Jed]

JB having a press Conference with Leigh and Leppa this afternoon

 

[lionbear]

JB having a press Conference with Leigh and Leppa this afternoon

I would say he is riding off into the sunset then.

If correct, I don't think words can describe the thanks I can give him for what he has done for the footy club and the enjoyment watching him as a supporter of the club.

 

[Hollow Knight]

JB having a press Conference with Leigh and Leppa this afternoon

2 year contract extension. Nice.

Seriously though:

Ain't changing my username.