Review Learn more from a loss...What have we learnt?

[Knight Ryders]

It has been commonly stated in sport in general that you learn more from a loss than you do from a win (we should be football scholars after the last 5 years!). So what have we learnt from the last 3 rounds where we have lost to Richmond, Melbourne and Fremantle?

1. We have a massive void in gut running, class outside midfielders. Stanton, Winderlich and Dempsey out have exacerbated this but we need classy outside runners to compliment our in and under types in Watson, Lonergan, Hocking and Howlett. Finishing into our forward line has been terrible with us either bombing it in or kicking it above the leading players head. If I was Crameri, Ryder and Hurley, I'd want to give them a few uppercuts because they can not buy an easy kick atm from good delivery.

2. With Fletcher injured we are struggling for playmakers from half back. We need to develop some more play makers from the back half. I'd love to see Pears play this role but it may also be worthwhile trying Zaharakis back here as well. We need some more creativity from back there; Dyson (seems to be on the nose with Hird) is another who must get a shot at it before the end of the year.

3. Jetta is top 5. It's taken a while, but we are starting to see the player we all hoped for and because of this, we need another small forward and if Davey can't cut it, we need to recruit one. Why? We desperately need Jetta in the midfield.

4. Hocking just may be our spiritual leader. He's not Cousins, he's not Hodge, but he epitomises hardness, strength and hard work; has a lot of follow me about him. Not underrated around Windy Hill, but everywhere else.

What are some of the observations you've made over the last 3 rounds?

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Without wanting to harp on about it too much, our injuries have pretty much targeted specific parts of our team:

Speed and/or gut running: Winderlich, Dempsey, Stanton
Defensive zoning: Dempsey, Fletcher, Pears
Grunt: Watson, Hocking (not injured, just dumb), Lonergan, Slattery
Hit-up forward: Hurley, Gumbleton

While you obviously have to expect injuries, we've just had the top end of our list decimated in those important areas. If you add Hardingham to the second list, you pretty much have the most important players for each category.

11 names there, and they'd be 11 of our 12 most important for those categories.

Our depth is either injured (Prismall, Dyson) or overrated, because we're not even close to covering those injuries even with Watson, Slattery and Hurley back.

Pears can't come back soon enough. We can't get back to Etihad soon enough.

 

[TheDon35]

We played dumb, week and gutless footy.

We need our 2nd 3rd and 4th best mids Hocking, Lonergan & Stanton respectively in the side or we will battle.

Slattery, McVeigh, NLM, Welsh should never play in the same team again.

NLM shouldn't play again as he's selective in when he decides to try. An unacceptable liability to the side.

I'm not going to blame 1st second and 3rd year players for that debacle when the senior players put up a disgraceful effort like they did.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

I'm not going to blame 1st second and 3rd year players for that debacle when the senior players put up a disgraceful effort like they did.

Great point.

The first, second and third year players were relied upon yesterday, when they should be the icing on the cake. I'm excluding Hurley from that category, because he's a freak.

 

[Jelly_Baby]

It has been commonly stated in sport in general that you learn more from a loss than you do from a win (we should be football scholars after the last 5 years!). So what have we learnt from the last 3 rounds where we have lost to Richmond, Melbourne and Fremantle?

1. We have a massive void in gut running, class outside midfielders. Stanton, Winderlich and Dempsey out have exasperbated this but we need classy outside runners to compliment our in and under types in Watson, Lonergan, Hocking and Howlett. Finishing into our forward line has been terrible with us either bombing it in or kicking it above the leading players head. If I was Crameri, Ryder and Hurley, I'd want to give them a few uppercuts because they can not buy an easy kick atm from good delivery.

2. With Fletcher injured we are struggling for playmakers from half back. We need to develop some more play makers from the back half. I'd love to see Pears play this role but it may also be worthwhile trying Zaharakis back here as well. We need some more creativity from back there; Dyson (seems to be on the nose with Hird) is another who must get a shot at it before the end of the year.

3. Jetta is top 5. It's taken a while, but we are starting to see the player we all hoped for and because of this, we need another small forward and if Davey can't cut it, we need to recruit one. Why? We desperately need Jetta in the midfield.

4. Hocking just may be our spiritual leader. He's not Cousins, he's not Hodge, but he epitomises hardness, strength and hard work; has a lot of follow me about him. Not underrated around Windy Hill, but everywhere else.

What are some of the observations you've made over the last 3 rounds?

Totally agree - who'd want to be a forward for us at the moment?

 

[Jesse Custer]

Enough excuses. The amount of 'learning' our boys have been doing over the years they should be NASA scientists.

 

[fishardansin]

Good question. A loss like yesterday teaches us a lot. This is because we were absolutely humiliated for long periods of the game and had a period of dominance. So what was different from the last few minutes of the 3rd and first half of the 4th compared to the rest of the game. For me it was simple. Running.

This is where we look ordinary and have done for over 5 years now. I can remember Hird's last game and continually seeing more Richmond jumpers at each contest was frustrating. This hasn't changed much over the years. There has been the odd game here and there where we get our hands on the ball and our disposal is good and we look a million $$ but mostly we don't and look ordinary.

I feel that up to end of 09 we were clearly developing into the quickest team in the league and with our KPPs we had two advantages over teams at the same stage of development. Namely Carlton, Richmond and Melbourne. Freo have bobbed up unexpectedly as a good side last year too. Now I'd say that all four of them are quicker then us across the ground and with Demspey, Winderlich and Davey all out it is disasterously so.

Modern football relies on having at least two very quick players in each third of the ground. Right now we have one in the whole team.

Clearly since Winderlich and Dempsey went down Essendon has gone to the old Sydney/St Kilda play book and is just closing down the game and going for stoppage after stoppage as Watson, Hocking, Lonergan and Howlett make a good stoppage combination. With at least two of those guys missing for the last few games we have numerically won these battles but have still got less quality out of our clearances.

What changed yesterday was that players started running at the stoppages. Instead of handballing to stationary players there were mobile targets for the handball.

Everyone bagged Knights for his last year at the job. However, it was clear to me that if our mids ran harder to keep pressure on the other team's transition and ran back to help backs clear the ball and our half forwards worked harder to provide targets that were leading into space we would have been a much better team. That isn't the coaches fault. It was clear from our good patch last year how the coaches wanted the team to play.

The other thing to think of is in our good run of games this season and last, under two different coaching regimes, our tackles stuck.

So what I've learnt is that until the mids work hard to pressure the opposition transition and run at stoppages so good clearance work leads to handballs to moving players we will continue to kick blindly under pressure, usually to a nest of opposition players. Our KPFs need to provide more movement too.

Out total dominance of that period was undermined by how far behind we were in the game. There were many turnover caused by players going for too much as there was no time for patience.

The other problem is that there is a clear hole in our zone that wasn't there early in the season. I think this because Dempsey is out and Fletch is restricted. our forward press needs them two to combine with Hardingham and Hooker at the back to work. All four have speed for their size and are good are reading the ball in flight to cut off opposition kicks.

 

[Smokin]

I know what we are not learning, that team balance is the most important thing for a group and we continually monumentally stuff it up.

The reason is - we cant seem to let go of our yesterdays footballers. Im talking Welsh, Slattery, McVeigh, Monfries, perhaps NLM, Lonergan*, Myers etc.

Most of these seem to have some sort of hold on the club and must be played at all times. I *'d Lonergan, because he has proven through form that his elite ball winning ability keeps him in. But we cant go too heavy of these types hence the next person named, Myers. With Jobe and Heath, one of these maximum with form being the factor. We have simply turned into a team of turtles with no ability to cover the ground.

The past 3 years, the only time our team has looked balanced has been when injuries took over. When all the you-know-whos were "back"" and near best 22, our form suffered. This year is a little different, but the same problems are sticking out.

We can only play a select couple of these guys, depending on team balance. Yet we have drowned the team with them, and they havnt got the aerobic athleticism to take on a season with todays demands. thats the other issue of us hitting the wall before half way.

Collingwood took off when they got rid of these one dimensional types. We are seeing it - todays footballer Hardingham is levels above a McVeigh or Slattery and he has been in the system 5 minutes. You could nearly argue Heppel the same. Im not sure any of those listed are currently offering more than Lockyer did for Collingwood when he was surpassed, yet they are all taking up space for us.

Carlton have seen kids walk straight past of yesterdays footballers in McClean, Houlihan etc. Hawthorn have found a whole new life through transition to todays types. 2 years ago Ellis was supposed to be a gun - but he is a yesterdays footballer type and they have realised they have kids who, given half a chance, will waltz passed him because today's football demands are a lot different to even 5 years ago whether these individuals like it or not.

We are stuck in an old school mentality. The Welsh selection just puts that without a shadow of a doubt and it is extremely alarming. And I posted this in the Freo pre-game thread.

We seem too scared to let go.

In some ways I hope we get totally exposed, and someone like Bomber says Jimmy, step back a sec you are too close to certain individuals, leave to me and Im going ...CHOP.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

We are stuck in an old school mentality. The Welsh selection just puts that without a shadow of a doubt and it is extremely alarming. And I posted this in the Freo pre-game thread.

We seem too scared to let go.

I'm not quite sure that's right. Welsh's instant selection seemed to be borne of the fact that Winderlich is out.

We tried Davey, we tried Reimers but neither of them were capable of playing the defensive forward role. Silverlock isn't ready, Williams hasn't shown he's able to be that tackling forward at VFL level, so we went to a bloke who's had moderate success there in the past.

I'm just glad Hirdy's accepting other options have tried and failed, so we need something else. If that's one of the older guys so be it. If it's one of the younger guys, then great.

 

[Smokin]

This whole 'defensive forward' cr@p which everybody is going on about is driving me a little nuts too. (not a go at you Ben, just on this)

So what, one player who can play one specific role is going to change everything now??? Spare me.

The issue is, that in itself is old school, yesterdays football thinking.

Today, 18 players are defending without the ball, and 18 are attacking with it. Everything effects everything today.

By adding Welsh to the rest of the turtles (who go embarrassingly run off our feet by 2 fairly ordinary teams), just compounded and the issue and was never going to fix anything!

What we need to fix it keeping the ball in the forwardline. That is a job for 18, not for 1. We have been getting caught in this area, because, as a team, others teams are simply putting numers back then running us off our feet, we have turned into a team with no speed, no run (notice a difference between run and speed), and no flexibility.

But the point was, after first telling us players will earn spots, go through vfl blah blah blah, they went against that to roll the red carpet for a guy who hasnt played a good game in a long, long time and has hardly played in half a year. We seem spell-bound by those who made us mediocre for so long.

Again, other teams have worked out these one-role type players, unless freakish in it, dont really cut it anymore.

 

[djrossie16]

We played dumb, week and gutless footy.

We need our 2nd 3rd and 4th best mids Hocking, Lonergan & Stanton respectively in the side or we will battle.

Slattery, McVeigh, NLM, Welsh should never play in the same team again.

NLM shouldn't play again as he's selective in when he decides to try. An unacceptable liability to the side.

I'm not going to blame 1st second and 3rd year players for that debacle when the senior players put up a disgraceful effort like they did.

I hope these players get phased out by the end of the season.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

This whole 'defensive forward' cr@p which everybody is going on about is driving me a little nuts too. (not a go at you Ben, just on this)

So what, one player who can play one specific role is going to change everything now??? Spare me.

The issue is, that in itself is old school, yesterdays football thinking.

Today, 18 players are defending without the ball, and 18 are attacking with it. Everything effects everything today.

By adding Welsh to the rest of the turtles (who go embarrassingly run off our feet by 2 fairly ordinary teams), just compounded and the issue and was never going to fix anything!

What we need to fix it keeping the ball in the forwardline. That is a job for 18, not for 1. We have been getting caught in this area, because, as a team, others teams are simply putting numers back then running us off our feet, we have turned into a team with no speed, no run (notice a difference between run and speed), and no flexibility.

But the point was, after first telling us players will earn spots, go through vfl blah blah blah, they went against that to roll the red carpet for a guy who hasnt played a good game in a long, long time and has hardly played in half a year. We seem spell-bound by those who made us mediocre for so long.

Again, other teams have worked out these one-role type players, unless freakish in it, dont really cut it anymore.

Good post, especially the bolded points.

I suppose "defensive forward" has become the cover-all term for any sort of tackling forward regardless of role. I'm sure if I went looking for descriptions of Chris Mayne on here, I'd come across "defensive forward". He's Freo's full forward.

What I was getting at was the Jason Winderlich "fox in the box" type forward who won't present up at the ball as a first instinct (as opposed to a Gus Monfries type small forward) but who'll be floating around the 30m mark ready to pounce on an opposition player. Yes, everyone should be doing that with the forward press, but a guy who's primary aim in the team is to do that is important IMO. Especially if they have a bit of goal sense about them like Winders did. Hayden Ballantyne is a perfect example of a bloke whose primary role is to tackle like a mofo when the ball hits the deck, but who also has an amazing goal sense and ability to get into good positions. Cyril Rioli is another.

Obviously we don't have a Rioli or a Ballantyne, but Welsh is a guy who's experienced enough to find good positions and nab a goal or two, on top of that primary aim of tackling. Maybe it won't work, but it's absolutely worth a crack.

Recruiting a small forward should be a priority in the off-season. Having Winders and a new tackling forward setting up inside 50 together next season will be very exciting, and hugely important for the forward press.

 

[Knight Ryders]

Some top notch posting here guys, agree with a lot of what Fish and Smokin have stated.

Another thing that disappointed me yesterday was when Crowley was giving Heppell a bit of curry at the opening bounce. I don't care who was around, but somebody should have come in and just gave him a bit of support. Nothing stupid but someone should have made a stand; in reflection, it was was very reflective of what was about to happen.

Also, I thought on quite a few occasions, we jumped in front of the pack of bloke marking the ball instead of crashing into the player and making him earn the mark. Just too soft, too easy for the opposition. If they are going to sit under the ball, at least make the body contact to know they are in a contest.

 

[Smokin]

Obviously we don't have a Rioli or a Ballantyne, but Welsh is a guy who's experienced enough to find good positions and nab a goal or two, on top of that primary aim of tackling. Maybe it won't work, but it's absolutely worth a crack.

Recruiting a small forward should be a priority in the off-season. Having Winders and a new tackling forward setting up inside 50 together next season will be very exciting, and hugely important for the forward press.

Welsh, experienced or not, having played that role before or not is simply not anywhere near good enough to get the red carpet service. Not even sure Watson is - he only missed 3 weeks and was rusty first back. Welsh has hardly played in 12 months.

He was perhaps worth a crack, after a few weeks of VFL football surely. Especially when we are making others jump through hoops at VFL level week, after week after week etc.

If we really want a guy to play this sort of role, instead of Welsh I would look at two guys. Dyson and Hibberd.

Dyson is a whipping boy, I know, but I have watch half a dozen or so VFL games this year and he is putting in. Sure, hasnt played that role specifically that I have seen, but has the tools, can actually cover the ground better than a pole, will tackle and has a beautiful left foot driving kick.

Hibberd, as I have said on another thread, will IMO be the Hardingham next year. Has the tools, jumps a little early but can jump, can move, is prepared to run off and is a junk yard dog type. He has assets all over welsh, for example.

Both would not only provide a little hard nosed defending aspect to the forwardline, but can actually run a little and perhaps create some space.

thats if we were at the welsh level - ruled a line through everyone else at VFL level.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Welsh, experienced or not, having played that role before or not is simply not anywhere near good enough to get the red carpet service. Not even sure Watson is - he only missed 3 weeks and was rusty first back. Welsh has hardly played in 12 months.

He was perhaps worth a crack, after a few weeks of VFL football surely. Especially when we are making others jump through hoops at VFL level week, after week after week etc.

If we really want a guy to play this sort of role, instead of Welsh I would look at two guys. Dyson and Hibberd.

Dyson is a whipping boy, I know, but I have watch half a dozen or so VFL games this year and he is putting in. Sure, hasnt played that role specifically that I have seen, but has the tools, can actually cover the ground better than a pole, will tackle and has a beautiful left foot driving kick.

Hibberd, as I have said on another thread, will IMO be the Hardingham next year. Has the tools, jumps a little early but can jump, can move, is prepared to run off and is a junk yard dog type. He has assets all over welsh, for example.

Both would not only provide a little hard nosed defending aspect to the forwardline, but can actually run a little and perhaps create some space.

thats if we were at the welsh level - ruled a line through everyone else at VFL level.

I don't necessarily disagree with you re the "red carpet" but my guess is Hirdy's thinking was "Reimers has failed, Davey has failed, not having one has failed (Melbourne game), so there's no point wasting a week, let's try Welsh who's next in line". Whether that was the best way to go, I don't know, and I guess we'll never know for sure.

Re Hibberd - perhaps. I wouldn't be averse to Hardingham doing it, because as brilliant as he's been down back, the forwardline is a bigger issue at the moment.

Dyson's been injured, but I have no doubt he'll be in soon. Ditto Prismall.

 

[TheDon35]

I don't necessarily disagree with you re the "red carpet" but my guess is Hirdy's thinking was "Reimers has failed, Davey has failed, not having one has failed (Melbourne game), so there's no point wasting a week, let's try Welsh who's next in line". Whether that was the best way to go, I don't know, and I guess we'll never know for sure.

Re Hibberd - perhaps. I wouldn't be averse to Hardingham doing it, because as brilliant as he's been down back, the forwardline is a bigger issue at the moment.

Dyson's been injured, but I have no doubt he'll be in soon. Ditto Prismall.

Dyson injured? I thought he had been playing in Bendigo all year.

I don't see the forward line as a bigger issue than our defence. Strong defences are the corner stone of a majority of premiership sides. At the moment ours is pitiful. I would want to get that right before the fwd line.

It's amazing how much more functional forward lines become when the ball starts getting in there with some consistency and efficiency.

I'd also be loath to take arguably one of our best couple of players for the year - Hardingham away from the area where he'd be close to AA selection.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Dyson injured? I thought he had been playing in Bendigo all year.

I don't see the forward line as a bigger issue than our defence. Strong defences are the corner stone of a majority of premiership sides. At the moment ours is pitiful. I would want to get that right before the fwd line.

It's amazing how much more functional forward lines become when the ball starts getting in there with some consistency and efficiency.

I'd also be loath to take arguably one of our best couple of players for the year - Hardingham away from the area where he'd be close to AA selection.

He's been carrying a niggle, similar to Prismall (and Stanton, Fletcher, Lonergan etc.)

I wouldn't say our defense (as in, our back six or seven) have been pitiful at all. You disagree with me on Hooker, but I think he's been solid all year, and exceptional at times. Fletch was in sublime nick before his knee started playing up around the Gold Coast game. Hardingham as you close to AA level. Myers has been OK, but in reality, he's a place-holder for Pears, and I think he's earmarked as a mid anyway. Slattery and McVeigh have been solid when they've played back. And what needs to be said about Dyson Heppell?

So from a current point of view, and from a development point of view, I don't have any issues with the backline, especially with guys like Hibberd and Dyson pushing for selection and creating competition for spots back there.

The forwardline however, is like a brick wall - you kick the footy in there and it bounces straight back out.

The delivery wasn't great early in the year either, but Hurley and Crameri made a contest every time, and the smaller guys like Winderlich and Jetta would pounce instantly. Now the bigger guys aren't contesting quite as well, and there's more uncontested marks to defenders in our forwardline, but the bigger issue is that there's no pressure at all when the ball hits the deck. Add that pressure in, and all of a sudden, the clearing kicks from our forwardline aren't as clean due to real and inferred pressure (or the Tony Shaw special "preferred pressure" ), the ball isn't cleared as often, and there's more chances to kick a winning score.

So while I believe the delivery inside 50 from the midfield, and the forward press absolutely need work, the biggest issue is the tackling pressure inside 50. Hardingham would definitely create some of that.

Your last line is the only concern I have about taking Hardingham out of the backline - would he be as effective up forward.

 

[coleman10]

The most stupid thread title of 2011 so far...

If we are "learning" from the past month, then we should be top of the class and graduate dux of the school, because over the last 4 weeks (and yes, I know theres been a bye in there before you all go off half-cocked) we have been schooled by some of the poorer teams in the competition. And now we get a Roo's team buoyed by a percentage booster against Gold Coast? Yippeee.....
Michael Voss syndrome is in full effect.

 

[Knight Ryders]

The most stupid thread title of 2011 so far...

If we are "learning" from the past month, then we should be top of the class and graduate dux of the school, because over the last 4 weeks (and yes, I know theres been a bye in there before you all go off half-cocked) we have been schooled by some of the poorer teams in the competition. And now we get a Roo's team buoyed by a percentage booster against Gold Coast? Yippeee.....
Michael Voss syndrome is in full effect.

We may not see it straight away, but I'd imagine that the coaching panel has learnt plenty over the last month which will be taken into consideration next year.

I'd say that Knights lack of learning was a big reason in why he is now gone. We didn't see any change on performance/defensive structure in 3 years.

 

[ant555]

What do we learn ?

Those who said we are a middle of the rode side that will finish 6th to 12th or with around 11 wins look to be correct so far.

I also know that a number of players are seriously over rated by the punters and as i said last week we are 2 good mids and a decent crumbing forward away from being a good side.

 

[Valve Bounce]

I have learnt that our guys have taken up a new past-time during games called "spectating". In fact that has become a huge part of our game plan.

 

[The Donners]

We are slow with too many plodders, we need to move on a number of players, one way or another:

Hille
Monfries
Welsh
McVeigh
Lovett-Murray
Dyson
Prismall
Williams
Winderlich
Slattery

Will most definitely hurt in the short term.

 

[The Donners]

I also know that a number of players are seriously over rated by the punters and as i said last week we are 2 good mids and a decent crumbing forward away from being a good side.

I believe Shuey would help, possibly in both departments. We've got plenty of WA boys, just sayin'...

Robbie Gray may be a chance on the trade table, we have a certain SA small forward that may be an option as part of a package, again, just sayin'...

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

1. Too many pea hearted players
2. Monfries is a cancer on the forward line.
3. Our coach is still learning on the job and has made some profound mistakes the past few weeks.
4. Jetta is a player that stands out when the side is crawling at snails pace. Why select a side that is sooo slow?
5. What on earth is Welsh doing in the leadership group and getting gifted games?

The nucleus of a good side is there. Just some tweaks and we'll be right.

 

[Childish Gambino]

Many are saying we lack speed... I don't agree. What we lack are genuine gut runners. Apart from Stanton there is not one other gut runner in our side that wills themselves to every contest.

You look at Collingwood and you have the likes of Thomas, Wellingham, Swan and to a lesser extent Pendlebury all providing gut running. They're not the quickest players but my word when they come off the field they're spent.