Recruiting List Development 2017 - How do we develop our list?

[Teflon Dons]

Some people are very narrow minded when it comes to some of the stuff John has done thus far and subjects such as tagging and what defines an "inside mid".

His philosophy seems to be pretty simple, let them do all the hard, taxing contested work and we'll kill them off half back, make them chase us the length of the ground and repeat until their will is shattered.

I'm honestly not fussed if our set up in the midfield isn't attacking the contest, as long as they get worn out and our mids are set up so it gets booted to Hurley. Love seeing the big man wind up and set us off.

One dimensional inside mids are hurting us from playing that way. We need to improve all over the ground to really catch teams flat-footed. It's the perfect weapon against these tiny little bulldogs mids if we can get the right guys in to replace Jobe and Myers. Parish will be one.

They are rusty cogs in an otherwise well oiled machine. To displace one of these vital attacking cogs into a fully-defensive mindset renders the attacking structure useless. We are the least tackled team in the competition ****in catch us if you can you campaigners.

He has stated on multiple occasions that he's had guys doing run with jobs all throughout the season. Goddard being one who touched Pendles up at the stoppage where he hurts you then back on the offensive straight away.

Honestly could not be happier with Woosha's appointment, he's done an amazing job with this group.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Some people are very narrow minded when it comes to some of the stuff John has done thus far and subjects such as tagging.

His philosophy seems to be pretty simple, let them do all the hard, taxing contested work and we'll kill them off half back, make them chase us the length of the ground and repeat until their will is shattered.

I'm honestly not fussed if our set up in the midfield isn't attacking the contest, as long as they get worn out and our mids are set up so it gets booted to Hurley. Love seeing the big man wind up and set us off.

One dimensional inside mids are hurting us from playing that way. We need to improve all over the ground to really catch teams flat-footed. It's the perfect weapon against these tiny little bulldogs mids if we can get the right guys in to replace Jobe and Myers. Parish will be one.

They are rusty cogs in an otherwise well oiled machine. To displace one of these vital attacking cogs into a fully-defensive mindset renders the attacking structure useless. We are the least tackled team in the competition ****in catch us if you can you campaigners.

He has stated on multiple occasions that he's had guys doing run with jobs all throughout the season. Goddard being one who touched Pendles up at the stoppage where he hurts you then back on the offensive straight away.

Honestly could not be happier with Woosha's appointment, he's done an amazing job with this group.

Top post Teflon!

The sooner that guys like Jobe and Myers are replaced by players that can run the better we will look.

What people fail to see is that Dodoro has already started that process. Like you say Parish is an obvious one and then McGrath is the next one.I know some a re not a fan of Langford but I think his skillset will work perfectly with what we have and then I would try get Laverde up to speed as fast as possible to rput pressure on Colyer. I also believe that Begley can be our Dan Hannerbry!

What we need to continue to do is add players that can work on the outside as well as the inside and if they can go forward like most of our guys can then we have premiership list on our hands.

By adding bulldozers like Jobe and Myers all we are doing is saying we are happy to try and beat teams like Sydney at their own game, which we can't.

 

[Teflon Dons]

Top post Teflon!

The sooner that guys like Jobe and Myers are replaced by players that can run the better we will look.

What people fail to see is that Dodoro has already started that process. Like you say Parish is an obvious one and then McGrath is the next one.I know some a re not a fan of Langford but I think his skillset will work perfectly with what we have and then I would try get Laverde up to speed as fast as possible to rput pressure on Colyer. I also believe that Begley can be our Dan Hannerbry!

What we need to continue to do is add players that can work on the outside as well as the inside and if they can go forward like most of our guys can then we have premiership list on our hands.

By adding bulldozers like Jobe and Myers all we are doing is saying we are happy to try and beat teams like Sydney at their own game, which we can't.

Havent seen heaps of begley but that would be ideal mate. Hope you're right ive always loved how hannebary goes about it.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Havent seen heaps of begley but that would be ideal mate. Hope you're right ive always loved how hannebary goes about it.

I want Woosha to unleash him. Every time I see him he reminds me of Hannebary because of his perfect blend of inside outside game.

 

[BrunoV]

BrunoV
If you break it down more, we lack versatile midfielders. Our mids (namely Jobe, Zac, Myers, Howlett, Heppel) are virtually rendered useless when they are not played in there prime position.

I would not put Zac in that category. He is fine on a wing.

 

[BrunoV]

Who's arguing that Carlton's approach is better? It is clearly not and thats my point.

You are pulling a quote from Woosha from a week ago? Come on mate thats ridiculous. Of course he's going to say that now that we are in touch of the finals.

He has been tempering peoples expectations all year and you know it! Yet you like a few others want measure the side against where you think they are. Your thoughts are unrealistic and if you understood whats going on you would recognise that we have actually exceeded where we should be.

And I love how you think Carlton are in a "unique" situation! Our past five years have just been run of the mill football seasons!

Boredom is the only reason I am continuing with this.

Carlton's approach is absolutely correct. If they played us at our game yesterday we would have won by 100 points. What good does that do? Why would you bother comparing Carlton's predicament to our as part of this discussion anyway? It's irrelevant, there is no one who will argue that any any point (once it became clear that we weren't going to be de-registered) we were not better placed on filed and in terms of our list than Carlton was. They have turned over more than a list worth of players in the last 24 months. I highly doubt that we'll ever see a list that bad again.

As for Worsfold, he's said two main things which are not mutually exclusive. First is the week to week, it's about building a system and style, playing the way we want to play, the results speaking for themselves, etc. Then he tells an officially sanctioned program on the website that he is picking a side to make the finals there is absolutely no reason to assume that he is doing anything other than what he says.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Boredom is the only reason I am continuing with this.

Carlton's approach is absolutely correct. If they played us at our game yesterday we would have won by 100 points. What good does that do? Why would you bother comparing Carlton's predicament to our as part of this discussion anyway? It's irrelevant, there is no one who will argue that any any point (once it became clear that we weren't going to be de-registered) we were not better placed on filed and in terms of our list than Carlton was. They have turned over more than a list worth of players in the last 24 months. I highly doubt that we'll ever see a list that bad again.

As for Worsfold, he's said two main things which are not mutually exclusive. First is the week to week, it's about building a system and style, playing the way we want to play, the results speaking for themselves, etc. Then he tells an officially sanctioned program on the website that he is picking a side to make the finals there is absolutely no reason to assume that he is doing anything other than what he says.

You shouldn't have bothered.

 

[reincarnated]

Firstly, Prelims and Grand Finals are never a shoot out or a free running open games. They are rough and tough contests, which is a defensive battle all through out the ground.

You will be kidding if you think you can win without tough inside ball winners. I am not talking Watson or Mayers type who can't run to save them self. But rather Selwood, Lewis, Kennedy, Hayes types. Remember Hayes winning the 2010 norm smith. If Hayes wasn't playing Saints would have lost by 10 goals in the 1st GF.

Collingwood recruited Ball specifically for this reason. And Ball out played him in the 2nd GF and you saw the difference.

If Woosha isn't interested in winning centre clearances why is he even playing Watson and Mayers? You need tough bodies to take some hits. But they are a liability when opposition win it. Which seems to be majority of the times.

When Parish went in, he made a big difference with his quick reflexes. But he can't sustain taking these hits for the whole game.

Hopper would be awesome. We missed a trick with Steele.

 

[Teflon Dons]

I want Woosha to unleash him. Every time I see him he reminds me of Hannebary because of his perfect blend of inside outside game.

Can't believe he's waited this long, he was emergency for about 10 weeks straight till last week. You'd think if he was ready enough to come in as an emergency all that time he could've come in and made a better fist of it than Laverde? That was one selection I really questioned and just about everyone else. Clearly underdone

 

[Killer_Mike]

Tell me it's not so! They are some of the biggest names in the game.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-08-06/nine-things-we-learned-from-round-20

6. Melbourne's midfield desperately needs a gifted runner
Simon Goodwin has some outstanding ball winners at his disposal, but until he finds someone to be fed by his onballers on the outside of the contest, the Demons will be a pedestrian midfield unit. Jordan Lewis (13 kicks and 22 handballs), Clayton Oliver (10 and 22), Nathan Jones (11 and 18), Jack Viney (seven and 15), Dom Tyson (five and 16) and Christian Petracca (three and 13) all found the footy against the Giants, but with no running options to get on the end of their handballs, winning more of the footy than the opposition meant little. GWS has Callan Ward, Stephen Coniglio and Jacob Hopper as its hard nuts, but they're complimented by running machines Tom Scully and Lachie Whitfield, while they also have Josh Kelly and Dylan Shiel available to play both roles as required. The Demons beat the Giants in contested possession and disposals, but were easily shut down by the fanatical tackling and pressure of the winners, and unless they find some run and carry, they'll struggle to compete with the best teams in the competition. - Adam Curley

 

[Killer_Mike]

Can't believe he's waited this long, he was emergency for about 10 weeks straight till last week. You'd think if he was ready enough to come in as an emergency all that time he could've come in and made a better fist of it than Laverde? That was one selection I really questioned and just about everyone else. Clearly underdone

I would be surprised if he doesn't replace Fantasia.

 

[WEEVZ]

Boredom is the only reason I am continuing with this.

Carlton's approach is absolutely correct. If they played us at our game yesterday we would have won by 100 points. What good does that do? Why would you bother comparing Carlton's predicament to our as part of this discussion anyway? It's irrelevant, there is no one who will argue that any any point (once it became clear that we weren't going to be de-registered) we were not better placed on filed and in terms of our list than Carlton was. They have turned over more than a list worth of players in the last 24 months. I highly doubt that we'll ever see a list that bad again.

As for Worsfold, he's said two main things which are not mutually exclusive. First is the week to week, it's about building a system and style, playing the way we want to play, the results speaking for themselves, etc. Then he tells an officially sanctioned program on the website that he is picking a side to make the finals there is absolutely no reason to assume that he is doing anything other than what he says.

Us and Carlton are probably the opposite side of the same coin really. They're the ultra defensive side who have trouble kicking a winning score, while we're ultra attacking and don't have much of a problem kicking a winning score but seem to struggle when it comes to the grind it out defensive stuff.

In terms of rebuilding it's gotta be said the Blues and Bolton have done a really good job. Once they start scoring more freely they'll be tricky to play against especially if they can maintain that clamp down defense that they've employed so far.

Firstly, Prelims and Grand Finals are never a shoot out or a free running open games. They are rough and tough contests, which is a defensive battle all through out the ground.

You will be kidding if you think you can win without tough inside ball winners. I am not talking Watson or Mayers type who can't run to save them self. But rather Selwood, Lewis, Kennedy, Hayes types. Remember Hayes winning the 2010 norm smith. If Hayes wasn't playing Saints would have lost by 10 goals in the 1st GF.

Collingwood recruited Ball specifically for this reason. And Ball out played him in the 2nd GF and you saw the difference.

If Woosha isn't interested in winning centre clearances why is he even playing Watson and Mayers? You need tough bodies to take some hits. But they are a liability when opposition win it. Which seems to be majority of the times.

When Parish went in, he made a big difference with his quick reflexes. But he can't sustain taking these hits for the whole game.

Hopper would be awesome. We missed a trick with Steele.

Definitely agree, Hopper is about as close to a "must get" for us as it's possible to be. One thing he has over a few of our mids is he's a legitimate forward threat as well (having kicked 27 goals in the TAC Cup in 2015). Another player I'd be keen for us to look at is Devon Smith. For mine he'd replace Green in the side with his tackling and pressure up forward while also having the ability to play in midfield either on the inside or the outside.

 

[Teflon Dons]

Boredom is the only reason I am continuing with this.

Carlton's approach is absolutely correct. If they played us at our game yesterday we would have won by 100 points. What good does that do? Why would you bother comparing Carlton's predicament to our as part of this discussion anyway? It's irrelevant, there is no one who will argue that any any point (once it became clear that we weren't going to be de-registered) we were not better placed on filed and in terms of our list than Carlton was. They have turned over more than a list worth of players in the last 24 months. I highly doubt that we'll ever see a list that bad again.

As for Worsfold, he's said two main things which are not mutually exclusive. First is the week to week, it's about building a system and style, playing the way we want to play, the results speaking for themselves, etc. Then he tells an officially sanctioned program on the website that he is picking a side to make the finals there is absolutely no reason to assume that he is doing anything other than what he says.

Bruno, when Carlton start winning, it won't be by planning and training all week solely on how to stop their opponent scoring. Some coaches implement their defensive plans first, some don't.

Weevz said it, opposite sides of the same coin.

There's no right or wrong way to go about it, I'm personally ecstatic that Woosh went the other way. It's worked a treat and he's given the fans something to be happy about because honestly, there's been **** all the last half decade.

As far as that last paragraph goes, you've lost me. It doesn't really make sense.

No one has said contested possessions aren't important. You just don't have to smash the other team in that area to win any more. It is viable to let them do a lot more work when you've got guys like Hurley and Gleeson behind the play. As long as we're still setting up to force a kick or cause panic. It's not as important a stat as it used to be.

Now our defence is being put into practice, and seeing as we train once a week for 35 minutes, it will be gradual but absolutely noticeable as it has been on the offensive end throughout the year. I remember after round 4 we were cooked. Since then the expectations have skyrocketed and we're playing for finals. He knows what he's doing.

 

[Mr_McBoogerBalls]

Balance is the key to success.

The best teams over the years could stand up to all sorts of game styles; whether that be attacking, contested or defensive.

We should be looking at integrating different skill sets into the team, enabling us to reduce our weaknesses and be competitive no matter who we play. I believe the coaching staff are already doing this, as evidenced by our average losing margin this year.

 

[Teflon Dons]

Balance is the key to success.

The best teams over the years could stand up to all sorts of game styles; whether that be attacking, contested or defensive.

We should be looking at integrating different skill sets into the team, enabling us to reduce our weaknesses and be competitive no matter who we play. I believe the coaching staff are already doing this, as evidenced by our average losing margin this year.

Yeah a balance of all three is vital.

It's okay to play smart footy and know when to attack the contest and know when to let them kick in hope because we have weapons like Hurley set up behind the ball. While they're caught in an attacking mindset, we're already set for the rebound and then we run them ragged - forcing the opposition to chase to defend when they think they've put their team in attack is the single biggest soul destroyer in footy. Having it done to you repeatedly would be absolutely deflating. Which is the objective.

Although I would like at least one contested marking defender to make us even more potent. I could see Gleeson replacing Kelly as the loose back if we go out and get Lever. He's exactly what we need, along with an injection of inside midfield youth who can effectively play multiple roles. We're not heavily linked to guys like Lever and Johannisen just to piss you lot off!

We are on the right track, a LOT further down it than I'd anticipated.

We consistently post significantly lower gps numbers than the opposition. There's reasons Fantasia is one of very few players to miss with a soft tissue injury this year. It'll be this style that keeps guys like Francis on the park.

All you really want to see under a new coach is a whole team buy-in, which I think has been undeniably evident throughout the year.

With the way teams are drilled on their defensive structure in modern footy, our fast movement through the corridor is actually LOW risk football. Giving your opponent the chance to set up is the biggest risk in the game these days as you are guaranteed to be punished.

Half the group is under him for the first time, if you think we're not still in the development phase under John, well you're just wrong. I'm expecting our points for and against will look very similar to what Adelaide's is now in a year or 2's time.

Just because he has exceeded our expectations doesn't mean we're ahead of schedule in our development. In reality we're not even half way yet. Our attacking style just stacks up against the best.

I wouldn't be too worried about our game not standing up at the pointy end. Our main man's been there a couple of times... he knows what it takes. Woosh isn't a career coach by chance. He's an innovator, not a sheep. [emoji207]

 

[BrunoV]

Bruno, when Carlton start winning, it won't be by planning and training all week on how to stop their opponent scoring. Some coaches implement their defensive plans first, some don't.

There's no right or wrong way to go about it, I'm personally ecstatic that Woosh went the other way. It's worked a treat and he's given the fans something to be happy about because honestly, there's been **** all the last half decade.

Now our defence is being put into practice, and seeing as we train once a week for 35 minutes, it will be gradual but absolutely noticeable as it has been on the offensive end throughout the year. I remember after round 4 we were cooked. Since then the expectations have skyrocketed and we're playing for finals. He knows what he's doing.

I think if Carlton is going to continue to be part of this discussion the discussion would be better served by understanding what they've been doing (and why it couldn't really be any other way).

There is a right and wrong answer. Young forwards notoriously struggle. Young defenders can be protected by a midfield. They also have a really solid mix of 8 defenders to choose from. At the other end of the ground they've got Casboult, Wright and some kids with about 20 games of experience between them. If you're starting again as Carlton was defence was their only option.

We're not starting again.

With respect, I think there is a basic lack of comprehension. Where has the defence or attack dichotomy come from? All I ever said was that given the strength of our key forwards it makes no sense to refuse to adapt the way we play when another side is picking us apart.

For three weeks now we've been dictated to by average opponents during a time when all I am hearing is that out brand of footy is getting better or that we are working on something. The reality is that nothing has changed from the Geelong game which was the start of the first good run of form we had for the year.

Our form ebbs and flows but the way we are playing is the same.

I can only take Worsfold at face value when his response to questions amounts to 'we stopped moving the ball in the desired way'.

That to me is ridiculous. There is another side on the field who will end up with momentum, sometimes they completely pick us apart.

If we don't change the best we can hope for is that we wrestle momentum back from an opponent. If the past few weeks are anything to go by we'll give Adelaide 2.5 quarters this week. How good will our ball movement have to be to overcome a 150 point deficit?

You're not going to sell me on the merit of any plan which requires you to be beat an opponent head to head each week. If that's how the world worked GWS would be unbeatable.

 

[Teflon Dons]

I think if Carlton is going to continue to be part of this discussion the discussion would be better served by understanding what they've been doing (and why it couldn't really be any other way).

There is a right and wrong answer. Young forwards notoriously struggle. Young defenders can be protected by a midfield. They also have a really solid mix of 8 defenders to choose from. At the other end of the ground they've got Casboult, Wright and some kids with about 20 games of experience between them. If you're starting again as Carlton was defence was their only option.

We're not starting again.

With respect, I think there is a basic lack of comprehension. Where has the defence or attack dichotomy come from? All I ever said was that given the strength of our key forwards it makes no sense to refuse to adapt the way we play when another side is picking us apart.

For three weeks now we've been dictated to by average opponents during a time when all I am hearing is that out brand of footy is getting better or that we are working in something. The reality is that nothing has changed from the Geelong game which was the start of the first good run of form we had for the year.

Our form ebbs and flows but the way we are playing is the same.

I can only take Worsfold at face value when his response to questions amounts to 'we stopped moving the ball in the desired way'.

That to me is ridiculous. There is another side on the field who will end up with momentum, sometimes they completely pick us apart.

If we don't change the beat we can hope for is that we wrestle momentum back from an opponent. If the past few weeks are anything to go by we'll give Adelaide 2.5 quarters this week. How good will our ball movement have to be to overcome a 150 point deficit?

You're not going to sell me then the merit of any plan which requires you to be beat an opponent y head to head each week. If that's how the world worked GWS would be unbeatable.

I'm unsure of the relevance of comparing our development and adversity with Carlton's. Their problem was they were consistently having massive scores kicked against them so that was an obvious starting point for Bolton given the state of that list and lack of offensively capable cattle.

Woosh has come in to implement a game plan tailored for our list, focussed around a young dominant key forward who regularly gets double and triple teamed, and an AA interceptor who can pinpoint 60m bullets. Getting Joe's confidence up was obviously John's priority. He's top 3 in the Coleman. It's worked. Now it's time to sure up our defence.

He has rattled on about working hard to get consistency in our game, so why would we change anything about the way we've been going about it all year? Consistency does not come from constant tinkering. It causes confusion. Good coaches keep it very simple. The reason he has been periodically adding layers to our game plan and ensuring ALL the player's have their heads around exactly what is happening and when.

When all of the senior guys have got the system down pat, John's job gets a lot easier, they will be able to effectively communicate the game plan to any draftee, trade or FA recruits without him having to teach them from the ground up. This makes inconsistency basically impossible because everyone knows what's going on, so everyone's constantly communicating what needs to be happening out on the field. "Team defence".

No point throwing magnets around in a panic just because the players aren't getting EVERY single thing right. The movement and structure is actually extremely complex. If you think it's simple it makes me think you don't really get it.

Yeah you said the Hawks would've been unstoppable too, if Clarko had been as wise as you and gone out to get more inside grunt. I'm sure he's kicking himself... 3 in a row is about as unstoppable as it gets in AFL footy Bruno.

If you're expecting us to go into a final anywhere near the intensity we've been at throughout the H&A, you're in for a rude awakening (or pleasant surprise depending on how highly you rate your opinion), because good coaches also know the best time for their team's intensity to peak, Worsfold is an all time great. He has got us to the end basically unscathed and still in contention. We are fresh and the ferocity at the contest will be palpable if we make it. Wait and see..

 

[BrunoV]

I'm unsure of the relevance of comparing our development and adversity with Carlton's. Their problem was they were consistently having massive scores kicked against them so that was an obvious starting point for Bolton given the state of that list and lack of offensively capable cattle.

Woosh has come in to implement a game plan tailored for our list, focussed around a young dominant key forward who regularly gets double and triple teamed, and an AA interceptor who can pinpoint 60m bullets. Getting Joe's confidence up was obviously John's priority. He's top 3 in the Coleman. It's worked. Now it's time to sure up our defence.

He has rattled on about working hard to get consistency in our game, so why would we change anything about the way we've been going about it all year? Consistency does not come from constant tinkering. It causes confusion. Good coaches keep it very simple. The reason he has been periodically adding layers to our game plan and ensuring ALL the player's have their heads around exactly what is happening and when.

Yeah you said the Hawks would've been unstoppable too, if Clarko had been as wise as you and gone out to get more inside grunt. I'm sure he's kicking himself... 3 in a row is about as unstoppable as it gets in AFL footy Bruno.

I think we're discussing Carlton because we just played them but also, because Carlton, they are wrong in having implemented a defensive plan whereas Worsfold is right because Essendon he has implemented an attacking plan.

If you're drinking the Koolaid and there can be nothing wrong about the way we play, there is probably no point continuing to have the discussion. Like I said in the post you quoted, all of the talk of consistency and development of structures is misguided. We've been playing the same football since the Geelong game (at least from memory that was the start) and we win or lose based on the inconsistency of application. Why will sticking to the same structure make the same players any more of less likely to make the same mistakes that they've been making for 100 games?

As for Hawthorn, the point was that they didn't play an opponent's game to try to beat them head to head. They adapted the way they played to minimise an opponent's strength assuming that they'd lose clearances. They'd pressure the first/second disposal to limit it quality and then pressure the recipient to try to turn the ball over. They then possessed the ball and moved it methodically. Just say that Josh Kennedy had stayed and that they could get their hands on another mid or two they would not have had a weakness. That was the point I was making. Rather than playing from half back they'd be belting an opponent from stoppages (being able to fall back on a build up from half back).

 

[Killer_Mike]

I'm unsure of the relevance of comparing our development and adversity with Carlton's. Their problem was they were consistently having massive scores kicked against them so that was an obvious starting point for Bolton given the state of that list and lack of offensively capable cattle.

Woosh has come in to implement a game plan tailored for our list, focussed around a young dominant key forward who regularly gets double and triple teamed, and an AA interceptor who can pinpoint 60m bullets. Getting Joe's confidence up was obviously John's priority. He's top 3 in the Coleman. It's worked. Now it's time to sure up our defence.

He has rattled on about working hard to get consistency in our game, so why would we change anything about the way we've been going about it all year? Consistency does not come from constant tinkering. It causes confusion. Good coaches keep it very simple. The reason he has been periodically adding layers to our game plan and ensuring ALL the player's have their heads around exactly what is happening and when.

Yeah you said the Hawks would've been unstoppable too, if Clarko had been as wise as you and gone out to get more inside grunt. I'm sure he's kicking himself... 3 in a row is about as unstoppable as it gets in AFL footy Bruno.

If you're expecting us to go into a final anywhere near the intensity we've been at throughout the H&A, you're in for a rude awakening, because good coaches also know the best time for their team's intensity to peak, Worsfold is an all time great. He has got us to the end basically unscathed and still in contention. We are fresh and the ferocity at the contest will be palpable if we make it. Wait and see..

We have had 19 rounds to come up with a premiership gameplan. That's what I'm getting from everyone.

I agree with what you say about tinkering. Woosha is setting the blueprint this year and working out what players plug into that role. As you say, why would you keep shifting the goalposts.

Another big preseason to work on fitness and more importantly adding further layers to the gameplan and we will be fine.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Teflon Dons]

I think we're discussing Carlton because we just played them but also, because Carlton, they are wrong in having implemented a defensive plan whereas Worsfold right because Essendon he has implemented an attacking plan.

If you're drinking the Koolaid and there can be nothing wrong about the way we play, there is probably no point continuing to have the discussion. Like I said in the post you quoted, all of the talk of consistency and development of structures is misguided. We've been playing the same football since the Geelong game (at least from memory that was the start) and we win or lose based on the inconsistency of application. Why will sticking to the same structure make the same players any more of less likely to make the same mistakes that they've been making for 100 games?

As for Hawthorn, the point was that they didn't play an opponent's game to try to beat them head to head. They adapted the way they played to minimise an opponent's strength assuming that they'd lose clearances. They'd pressure the first/second disposal to limit it quality and then pressure the recipient to try to turn the ball over. They then possessed the ball and moved it methodically. Just say that Josh Kennedy had stayed and that they could get their hands on another mid or two they would not have had a weakness. That was the point I was making. Rather than playing from half back they'd be belting an opponent from stoppages (being able to fall back on a build up from half back).

No I just said neither of them are wrong implementing a plan that addresses their lists biggest deficiencies first... our's was not scoring enough with a very capable gun forward. They had Casboult and Liam Jones. So they've had to control the bleeding and wait it out till they recycle basically their entire list.

John had a list in good shape demographically and structurally, but they'd been put through the ringer and had all confidence in themselves and the club sapped. Completely different but equally difficult positions. For mine Woosh has done a lot better in an absolutely unique situation.

I'm not sure why you're protesting Carlton's situation is so unique when it's not. Clubs have had shit lists before, and they will have them again. What happened to us had never and will NEVER happen again.

I never said there's nothing wrong with the game plan. Worsfold said last week we have only just refocused attention to addressing our defence - indicating the likelihood we're having a big pre season dedicated to that aspect.

I'm just realistic that in his 2nd year with half of the senior players under him for the first time, it's probably our first year of real development under him.

As for hawthorn, they had a genius coach that knew how to keep his list healthy and fresh throughout the home and away, all while keeping themselves in a top 4 spot for basically 5 years straight. Saying teams like Richmond and GWS "troubled" them during their reign is silly.

Clarkson gave them an opportunity every year to dramatically increase their intensity when it mattered. Went in underdogs 2014 and 15 after having to play twice while their opponents had a week's rest. Accumulative fatigue is obviously a huge factor and they made all 3 teams look really slow and just out of place. Worsfold has done this perfectly. Tick.

 

[Teflon Dons]

We have had 19 rounds to come up with a premiership gameplan. That's what I'm getting from everyone.

I agree with what you say about tinkering. Woosha is setting the blueprint this year and working out what players plug into that role. As you say, why would you keep shifting the goalposts.

Another big preseason to work on fitness and more importantly adding further layers to the gameplan and we will be fine.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

I like that. Rome

He's building Rome Bruno give the bloke some time!!!

 

[Yoda_]

Would love to Dodo bird to have a geez at the international combine that was held earlier in the year and grab a tall US athlete giving us a free hit outside our list/salary cap at a key position without compromising the management of our list.

 

[Capt Hindsight]

So far we have 3 confirmed list changes in Watson & Kelly retiring and Eades (rookie list) delisted.
Stanton (7 AFL games in 2017, last game round 11) and Hocking (1 AFL game in 2017 in round 3) surely retire at the end of this season as well.

So locked in so far there will be 4 senior list spots and 1 rookie list spot to fill already without making any tough decisions.
Watson (midfield) and Kelly (back) retiring creates effectively 2 best 22 spots to fill.

Considering the club usually takes 4 players in the draft and 1-2 rookies.
Any further delistings will be for list spots for traded in players.

 

[eth-dog]

Can't see Jackson Merrett, Shaun McKernan or Alex Morgan continuing. Jake Long is in the promote/delist category and I suspect one of Howlett and Bird will be discarded.

Takes it up to 6/7 and 3 dependent on Long. I'm going with Long promotion.

 

[WEEVZ]

Can't see Jackson Merrett, Shaun McKernan or Alex Morgan continuing. Jake Long is in the promote/delist category and I suspect one of Howlett and Bird will be discarded.

Takes it up to 6/7 and 3 dependent on Long. I'm going with Long promotion.

With Bird still under contract (for whatever reason he's on a long term deal which doesn't expire until the end of 2019), I'd say Howlett goes. Definitely agree on Merrett, McKernan and Morgan.