List Mgmt. List Management Thread

[Mostyn]

Not too many would agree that Murray or Himmelberg to this point have ever been classed as ruck/forwards more forwards capable of chopping out in ruck if required. With Murray since he's joined the Crows there's really no evidence in his SANFL games we're concentrating on him being our back up ruck going forward.

Sorry - I meant forwards who are the 2nd ruck.

That's always been Himmelburg's role and seems the most obvious role for Murray. Burgess has never been a good 2nd ruck option.

 

[The Shapeshifter]

You want to run a business where you pay someone for two years work in its entirety in the first year?

That's NOT how front loading works.

Front loading is taking a four year $2m contract and paying it $750k/$750k/$250k/$250k.

Your suggestion only makes sense if you DO want to cut them. What if they have a fantastic first year and demand to be traded?

What's the pitfall chief? You seem to be deliberately avoiding answering that question? Do you reckon that both Schoey and Burgess would phone in 2025 with their careers on the line if they'd been paid their contract up front? Do you think the higher end player reduces output when the $250k part of their $500k average arrives? Risk is less with the Schoeys and Burgesses. The players with value, ie Gibbs, might decide they'll cash in and move on when the cheap part arrives. No risk with our $250k guys in the soon to delist pile.

Again, what's the pitfall?

 

[GreyCrow]

What about taxable income? The player would be advised to carefully consider those implications

 

[Mostyn]

What's the pitfall chief? You seem to be deliberately avoiding answering that question? Do you reckon that both Schoey and Burgess would phone in 2025 with their careers on the line if they'd been paid their contract up front? Do you think the higher end player reduces output when the $250k part of their $500k average arrives? Risk is less with the Schoeys and Burgesses. The players with value, ie Gibbs, might decide they'll cash in and move on when the cheap part arrives. No risk with our $250k guys in the soon to delist pile.

Again, what's the pitfall?

I said an obvious one. You did notice that, right? Considering you've weirdly said I've avoided your question.

You pay them for two years in the first year, they have a great year - and demand a trade.

Which they'd be pretty likely to do, considering you're paying them specifically so you can cut them without remorse.

Their agent would be licking their lips to sell them to someone else. ANYTHING he gets would be found money.

Meanwhile, by stacking your current year salary cap with two years of salary for some players - surely that means someone is getting less than they deserve? So they want to leave as well?

What about tax? What about employment status of someone who is your "employee" but you're not giving him any salary payments for a whole year - is that even legal?

Front load a bit, sure. But your idea seems nuts.

 

[bayside_crow]

What about taxable income? The player would be advised to carefully consider those implications

Yes. Though as long as they don’t drop any year below $190k, all the money shuffled around would be in the top tax bracket anyway.


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[Mostyn]

Yes. Though as long as they don’t drop any year below $190k, all the money shuffled around would be in the top tax bracket anyway.


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I think the idea proposed is to pay someone $450k one year and nothing the next

 

[spenze]

It probably happens a lot more with rucks that go late/rookie/MSD than most other roles, and maybe not gamechangers but way way above average ruckmen and many decent lead rucks like the current Tristan Xerri, Lloyd Meek, Jordan Sweet and ***Sam Draper and let's not forget Reilly O'Brien

Dean Cox #28 Rookie Draft
Aaron Sandilands #33 Rookie Draft
Jarrod Witts #67 National Draft
Rowan Marshall #10 Rookie Draft
Oscar McInerny #37 Rookie Draft
Shane Mumford #67 National Draft
Stefan Martin #3 Preseason Draft
Sam Jacobs #1 Rookie Draft
Darren Jolly #31 Rookie Draft

Witts was a NSW scholarship player like Tex, he was always being taken with Collingwoods last pick in the draft

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I think the idea proposed is to pay someone $450k one year and nothing the next

Football years are not financial year, so you could flow it across 2 financial years.

 

[The Shapeshifter]

I said an obvious one. You did notice that, right? Considering you've weirdly said I've avoided your question.

You pay them for two years in the first year, they have a great year - and demand a trade.

Which they'd be pretty likely to do, considering you're paying them specifically so you can cut them without remorse.

Their agent would be licking their lips to sell them to someone else. ANYTHING he gets would be found money.

Meanwhile, by stacking your current year salary cap with two years of salary for some players - surely that means someone is getting less than they deserve? So they want to leave as well?

What about tax? What about employment status of someone who is your "employee" but you're not giving him any salary payments for a whole year - is that even legal?

Front load a bit, sure. But your idea seems nuts.

If they demand a trade, then we hold the cards having paid them and they remaining contracted. It's pretty simple really.

 

[The Shapeshifter]

What about taxable income? The player would be advised to carefully consider those implications

Sportspeople's taxable income is averaged, being paid in advance is swings and roundabouts.

Income averaging for special professionals 2024 | Australian Taxation Office

Information about types of professional income and how to work out the tax payable with income averaging.

www.ato.gov.au

 

[The Shapeshifter]

Yes. Though as long as they don’t drop any year below $190k, all the money shuffled around would be in the top tax bracket anyway.


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You don't understand tax.

 

[Big Dub]

You don't understand tax.

In my opinion, that's a compliment.

Tax people are weird

 

[Mostyn]

If they demand a trade, then we hold the cards having paid them and they remaining contracted. It's pretty simple really.

Yes, that happens a lot. Holding someone to a contract where you do not plan to pay them for that year.

Again - these are employees. What you're proposing would break a stack of laws. No manager in existence would agree to it.

 

[Big Dub]

Yes, that happens a lot. Holding someone to a contract where you do not plan to pay them for that year.

Again - these are employees. What you're proposing would break a stack of laws. No manager in existence would agree to it.

Actually, legally it's pretty simple to hold someone to a contract where you have paid upfront.

It might practically be a bit harder in AFL land where the player tends to end up where he wants. But you can always hold an employee to a contract you have already paid for.

 

[crow2crow]

I had signed off for the year but then I caught a glimpse of toby murray in a video... you can't put on that much size in 3 months surely?? holy moly

 

[crow2crow]

What about taxable income? The player would be advised to carefully consider those implications

their tax works differently to ours
look it up for professional sports people, it doesn't work on the tax year like the rest of us

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

Football years are not financial year, so you could flow it across 2 financial years.

I thought professional athletes had special averaging rules for tax purposes.

 

[cleanhands]

I had signed off for the year but then I caught a glimpse of toby murray in a video... you can't put on that much size in 3 months surely?? holy moly

D Jarman didn’t have any trouble

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Actually, legally it's pretty simple to hold someone to a contract where you have paid upfront.

It might practically be a bit harder in AFL land where the player tends to end up where he wants. But you can always hold an employee to a contract you have already paid for.

Surely there's a minimum annual payment players must receive as part of the CBA

 

[Vader]

Surely there's a minimum annual payment players must receive as part of the CBA

There are minimum conditions, with minimum base payments and match fees specified.

Obviously, the match fees can't be paid in advance, as they're dependent upon weekly team selections.

What I'm not clear about is whether there are any rules stating that those base payments need to be paid in every year of a multi-year contract, or if they can be distributed unevenly.

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[Vader]

The CBA has the following to say about the Timing of AFL Player Payments:

1.1 Timing of AFL Player Payment
(a) An AFL Player will be paid the amounts they are due as set out in Schedule 2A and their Standard Playing Contract in accordance with this item 1.1 of Schedule 4.
(b) An AFL Player will be paid their:
(i) minimum base payment or base payment (as the case may be) by twelve (12) equal monthly instalments commencing on 1 November to 31 October the following year; and
(ii) Senior Match Payments (payable if the Player is listed on the Official Team Sheet as defined in the AFL Regulations) on the 15th day of each month for Matches played in the preceding month or such earlier date as agreed between the Player and the AFL Club.
(c) Any payment due to an AFL Player pursuant to an Additional Services Agreement will be payable in accordance with the terms of the Additional Services Agreement.
(d) AFLPA may raise with AFL during the term of this Agreement, the implementation of appropriate procedures to ensure timely payment of Player’s payment under this item 1 of this Schedule 4.
(e) An AFL Player will be paid all bonus and incentive payments by no later than 31 October in the year in which the bonus and/or incentive payments were earned.

The Base and Senior Match Payments are specified in Schedule 2A of the CBA:

3. Base and Senior Match Payments
(a) Subject to item 7, a Club will pay each AFL Player it employs other than a First Year Player, Second Year Player, Third Year Player or AFL Rookie Player a minimum base payment per annum and a minimum Senior Match payment per Senior Match as set out in the table below:

For 2025, the Base Payment is $145K, and Senior Match Payments are $5K.

By my understanding, clubs should be able to bring forward payment, but not to the point where a player is paid less than the CBA mandated minimum in any given season.

 

[Danger in Texas]

Way, way, way too early crack at the 2025 off-season:

Out: Walker (ret), Smith (ret), Strachan (del), ROB (FA), Crouch (FA), Murphy (del, re-rookied); Schoenberg (del), Burgess (del)

End of 2nd rd compensation for both Crouch and ROB. Leaves us with a first, two end-of-second round picks and three thirds. I also assume we draft someone in the mid-season draft

NWM, Max Heath, 2026 St K 2nd for 2025 and 2026 Adel 1sts (assuming we finish around 7th to 9th next year)
Will Verrall for 2025 Adel 3rd
Jacob Bauer for 2025 end of 2nd
2026 3rd for 2025 GWS/Melb 3rd

Draft a ruck and a small forward with the remaining 2nd and 3rd round pick we have

In: NWM (trade), Heath (trade), Verrall (trade), Bauer (trade), small forward (draft), ruck (draft); Murphy (re-listed), MSD player (draft)

 

[Vader]

Way, way, way too early crack at the 2025 off-season:

Out: Walker (ret), Smith (ret), Strachan (del), ROB (FA), Crouch (FA), Murphy (del, re-rookied); Schoenberg (del), Burgess (del)

End of 2nd rd compensation for both Crouch and ROB. Leaves us with a first, two end-of-second round picks and three thirds. I also assume we draft someone in the mid-season draft

NWM, Max Heath, 2026 St K 2nd for 2025 and 2026 Adel 1sts (assuming we finish around 7th to 9th next year)
Will Verrall for 2025 Adel 3rd
Jacob Bauer for 2025 end of 2nd
2026 3rd for 2025 GWS/Melb 3rd

Draft a ruck and a small forward with the remaining 2nd and 3rd round pick we have

In: NWM (trade), Heath (trade), Verrall (trade), Bauer (trade), small forward (draft), ruck (draft); Murphy (re-listed), MSD player (draft)

What makes you think anyone will be interested in taking Crouch as a FA? He didn't have any suitors the last 2 times he tried it.

 

[Cromulant]

What makes you think anyone will be interested in taking Crouch as a FA? He didn't have any suitors the last 2 times he tried it.

Another year like this year he'll have suitors

 

[Danger in Texas]

What makes you think anyone will be interested in taking Crouch as a FA? He didn't have any suitors the last 2 times he tried it.

1) I thought he had a level of interest from Sydney and/or Geelong last time?
2) he’s been in a lot better form since 3/4 of the way through 2023, should have at least a couple more suitors

Either way, we need to get Draper fully in the midfield rotation by 2026, so even if Crouch keeps his current form up I’d only offer him a one-year deal for 2026, in order to hint that the back end of his career may lie elsewhere