Marriage equality debate - Pt.3 - Australia votes yes

[Lebbo73]

Didn't even know shellyg was a woman.

And even if she is - does it matter? We're all equal on the internet.

Some people are more equal than others!

 

[Chief]

Jedi isn't recognised, I was just demonstrating that a lot of people don't take the census seriously, I haven't even looked at how many may have identified as Pastafarian. They're quite prepared to lie on it or throw it in the bin, with great force as I did.

There were a couple of reasons specifically not to trust this last census (& I'm not part of any ethnic / religious minority), even before the deadline it was a debacle.

Census: Australian Bureau of Statistics says website attacked by overseas hackers.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-...statistics-says-census-website-hacked/7712216

Former NSW Deputy Commissioner for Privacy called for it to be scrapped.

"The online census form was subject to four denial of service attacks yesterday," he explained.

DOS attacks are not hacking. They are DOS attacks.

This didn’t vindicate any of the tinfoil hat brigade’s decision to reject the census as witchcraft.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Kurve]

"The online census form was subject to four denial of service attacks yesterday," he explained.

DOS attacks are not hacking. They are DOS attacks.

This didn’t vindicate any of the tinfoil hat brigade’s decision to reject the census as witchcraft.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Perhaps not but the damage was done, obviously.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

That moment when you realise your mansplaining is letting you down.

PRIME Minister Julia Gillard revealed yesterday that her personal stance against gay marriage was due to her conservative upbringing.
Ms Gillard said she was "on the conservative side" of the gay marriage issue "because of the way our society is and how we got here", the Daily Telegraphreports.

"I think that there are some important things from our past that need to continue to be part of our present and part of our future," she said. "If I was in a different walk of life, if I'd continued in the law and was partner of a law firm now, I would express the same view, that I think for our culture, for our heritage, the Marriage Act and marriage being between a man and a woman has a special status.

"Now, I know people might look at me and think that's something that they wouldn't necessarily expect me to say, but that is what I believe.

"I'm on the record as saying things like I think it's important for people to understand their Bible stories, not because I'm an advocate of religion - clearly, I'm not - but once again, what comes from the Bible has formed such an important part of our culture."

Ms Gillard said she had a "pro-union, pro-Labor upbringing in a quite conservative family, in the sense of personal values".​

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/pm...g/news-story/2d7153fcb8cc968fb6648da6d89c00ce


Like I said, if you maintain the same views as Prime Minister Gillard a mere six years ago (or Rudd four) you are accused of being a bigot. It is absolute nonsense.

But do you actually believe that is her thought process? I don't. It's what politicians needed to say to keep a bunch of religious people happy (or Daily Telegraph readers, for that matter). But people felt Gillard would be different as she had bucked the trend and hadn't sold herself as a family woman. She was atheist. But she also came from a time where discussions around the patriarchal history of marriage were fairly common. I think that has more to do with it. Given it didn't take long for her to change her mind once she was out of office I don't think the comments quoted above were indicative of a principle.

 

[Gough]

It seems that up until last Wednesday morning we were told that the silent majority of Australians would speak and that marriage equality would be rejected, now it's the fault of the ALP that it wasn't passed years ago. There's some pretty spectacular mental gymnastics taking place here.

 

[TimmeT]

It seems that up until last Wednesday morning we were told that the silent majority of Australians would speak and that marriage equality would be rejected, now it's the fault of the ALP that it wasn't passed years ago. There's some pretty spectacular mental gymnastics taking place here.

Well why don't you actually attempt to refute the points raised then or is that beyond your ability?

 

[radiojake]

It's pretty disingenuous to blame muslims and the labour party for lack of SSM reform

That's some Orwell double speak for you

 

[radiojake]

I dont know why im surprised that this thread turned into another anti-muslim thread

Ofcourse they voted no but they did with a whole lot of other religious nutbags and nutbags who are actually in Parliament

 

[TimmeT]

It's pretty disingenuous to blame muslims and the labour party for lack of SSM reform

That's some Orwell double speak for you

Care to show me where I directly and exclusively blamed them for SSM reform? Or did I merely just point out the fact that Muslims had a significant influence in returning no results in certain electorate and point out the fact that Labor had stalled on instigating decisive ssm reform just like the LNP had?

 

[Kurve]

I dont know why im surprised that this thread turned into another anti-muslim thread

More an expression of frustration imo.

Ofcourse they voted no but they did with a whole lot of other religious nutbags and nutbags who are actually in Parliament

Loud and clear, the message I've taken is that these powerful religious nutbags are not representative. It really is mindblowing.

 

[Hoops]

It’s a lot easier to have social change policies in opposition than in government. The ALP had there chance. They blew it.

This is the biggest load of spin I've heard. The only reason that SSM will get through is because Labor changed their policy in 2011
2011 Labor allow concience vote on SSM whilst in Government
2017 Coalition allow conscience vote on SSM whilst in Government after spending $100m.
How can this be a win for the Coalition

 

[bourbons]

That wasn't the original point at all. The original point blamed were the greens blaming the government for causing trauma. My point was anyone claiming to experience trauma from a debate is weak. Don't be dishonest.

I'm still waiting for your point? This is just more trying to claim you are an authority.

Talk about dishonesty

Never claimed to be an authority, rather that my attitude has changed over time mostly due to exposure to additional info.

 

[TimmeT]

This is the biggest load of spin I've heard. The only reason that SSM will get through is because Labor changed their policy in 2011
2011 Labor allow concience vote on SSM whilst in Government
2017 Coalition allow conscience vote on SSM whilst in Government after spending $100m.
How can this be a win for the Coalition

There is no guarantee that SSM shall even pass in this term although there should be enough support across all parties to support it and get it approved in both houses. The Labor members are still not obliged to vote in support of SSM during this term, thus they can vote no without consequences or reprisal from the party. SSM will not be guaranteed passage during this term of parliament. Will definitely be guaranteed next term of parliament. The 2011 policy change has no influence on whether SSM will pass as legislation and both people inside and outside the Labor party were well aware of that. The 2015 policy position will however as it now will bind members to support it post next election. The 2011 policy was merely a stop gap and compromise between sides that really wasn't going to do anything at the end of the day. The Labor Party knew this.

 

[radiojake]

Care to show me where I directly and exclusively blamed them for SSM reform? Or did I merely just point out the fact that Muslims had a significant influence in returning no results in certain electorate and point out the fact that Labor had stalled on instigating decisive ssm reform just like the LNP had?

Merely point out muslims influence? You basically changed the topic of the thread

 

[TimmeT]

Merely point out muslims influence? You basically changed the topic of the thread

LOL this was a direct outcome of the SSM survey and thus is directly and highly relevant to this topic. Apparently though some can't cope with having to deal with this taboo subject both on here and elsewhere like the lefty looney loser Hannah McCann who complained that a TV person interviewing her commented that electorates with many Muslims had the biggest no vote and then tried to shift it back on to white males despite facts clearly indicating otherwise.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Funny how much we're accused of having our head in the sand while 2-3% of Australians apparently have to take responsibility for 38.5% of Australians voting No. That's why accusations of Islamophobia are warranted.

Guess you missed the article I posted in response to your post which said about the Catholic support for SSM. Here it is again for you

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/catholics-defy-church-leadership-to-become-biggest-backers-of-samesex-marriage-poll-20170825-gy49ea.html

As I suspected, your summation is wrong. Catholics and non-Christian religions were both 66%, as you highlighted in our pull quote just now, but non-religious was 79%. AKA Higher. So no, Catholics were not "the biggest backers of same sex marriage". They were equal in 2nd behind non-religious. Wouldn't Islam fit into "non-Christian religions"? So according to that poll, Islam were equally 'big backers' of SSM...? Uh oh.

Not to mention above this, I also acknowledged that the Labor will still allow a conscience vote during this term of parliament as shown below

Yeah, mate. You acknowledged it after a few other posters and I pointed out you were wrong. Commendations for acknowledging that correction.

Yet here we have you melting andf attacking others for supposedly getting things wrong and low and behold you cannot practice what you preach .

Oh, you're pretending my post was after your acknowledgement? That's weird. But you accused me of "melting" so you are clearly clear-eyed.

You are another who can't bear to state the fact which is clear as day that Muslims were overwhelmingly anti SSM and the majority religion group responsible for the no vote being recorded in pretty much all seats bar the Hillsong country.

"Clear as day" except when it was Christians. And it's not that clear, as we have seen while you have marauded over this territory trying to justify your heavy-handed statements.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Another thread hijacked by the Islam obsessed who will also say they can’t discuss Islam.

 

[madmug]

LOL this was a direct outcome of the SSM survey and thus is directly and highly relevant to this topic. Apparently though some can't cope with having to deal with this taboo subject both on here and elsewhere like the lefty looney loser Hannah McCann who complained that a TV person interviewing her commented that electorates with many Muslims had the biggest no vote and then tried to shift it back on to white males despite facts clearly indicating otherwise.

Yes being defensive about it is pointless. It's understandable that Muslims may, on the whole, be more anti SSM or homophobic than the rest of the community. They've been more brainwashed by religious/cultural norms than the majority of other Australians. Thats sad. Hopefully over time their kids & GKs will become more tolerant of 'others'.

We see much the same in some/many christian loony religious types in Australia. They preach love & forgiveness, but act out bigotry & intolerance.

Funny that, not.

 

[TimmeT]

Funny how much we're accused of having our head in the sand while 2-3% of Australians apparently have to take responsibility for 38.5% of Australians voting No. That's why accusations of Islamophobia are warranted.

As I suspected, your summation is wrong. Catholics and non-Christian religions were both 66%, as you highlighted in our pull quote just now, but non-religious was 79%. AKA Higher. So no, Catholics were not "the biggest backers of same sex marriage". They were equal in 2nd behind non-religious. Wouldn't Islam fit into "non-Christian religions"? So according to that poll, Islam were equally 'big backers' of SSM...? Uh oh.

Yeah, mate. You acknowledged it after a few other posters and I pointed out you were wrong. Commendations for acknowledging that correction.

Oh, you're pretending my post was after your acknowledgement? That's weird. But you accused me of "melting" so you are clearly clear-eyed.

"Clear as day" except when it was Christians. And it's not that clear, as we have seen while you have marauded over this territory trying to justify your heavy-handed statements.

LOL shifting the goal posts now. Here is the original quote where you asked the question and asked me to provide proof of.

Out of who? Religious people? I don't think that would be true, so please provide a link.

Non-Religion is not a religious group because they don't follow a religion. Thus that makes them irrelevant. Thus Catholics were the biggest backers of SSM from religion groups. What an excellent own goal you just scored.

Labor's 2010 position was marriage was between a man and a woman. This was bought to the election and was only changed after the 2011 conference. Even then this policy change was never intended to or going to result in SSM legalisation for the reasons stated previously and had people both within the party and outside openly saying it was not supportive of SSM.

So then explain to me why seats with high Christian populations and high migrant populations who identify as a various form of Christianity (especially those with Chinese migrants who are apparently a big no backer) such as Bennalong and Chisholm still returned a yes result for SSM on an electorate basis but seats with high Muslim populations such as Blaxland and Calwell returned no result?

 

[Forward Press]

Muslim rant

I already explicitly acknowledged it you dropkick. You seriously lack logic or comprehension skills. It is no wonder you keep getting banned.

I think maybe we are all in agreement and maybe are just arguing for the sake of it. There is little doubt that the more religious an electorate is, and the more foreign-born population there is in the electorate (especially from Islamic and Chinese backgrounds), the higher the opposition to same sex marriage. All analysts have agreed on those two points, and that is unsurprising as well. It is the reality in many western countries and Australia isn't an exception.

A more in-depth analysis (eg whether the Buddhists in Bruce voted No) is impossible as the ABS didn't collect that data during the postal survey and the census can only offer so much information - it does not tell us how many Chinese are Catholic, for example.

In the end, though, I think blaming Islam for the No vote is disingenuous considering they make up 2% of Australia's population and there are many more factors at play than just professing your adherence to Allah.

This has been repeated in the dozens of posts before.

You shift more goalposts than in the Katy Perry song Hot and Cold.

 

[TimmeT]

Yes being defensive about it is pointless. It's understandable that Muslims may, on the whole, be more anti SSM or homophobic than the rest of the community. They've been more brainwashed by religious/cultural norms than the majority of other Australians. Thats sad. Hopefully over time their kids & GKs will become more tolerant of 'others'.

We see much the same in some/many christian loony religious types in Australia. They preach love & forgiveness, but act out bigotry & intolerance.

Funny that, not.

Don't disagree with this. There are a number of whacko woeful Christian groups which doesn't surprise me that the seat in NW Sydney voted No. I do not support religion.

 

[BEaston]

Some fair melts in here last couple of days.

 

[TimmeT]

I already explicitly acknowledged it you dropkick. You seriously lack logic or comprehension skills. It is no wonder you keep getting banned.



This has been repeated in the dozens of posts before.

You shift more goalposts than in the Katy Perry song Hot and Cold.

Do you abuse your student's like this when they refuse to buy what you are saying blindly? If so you're a good example of the need to improve teacher standards if you need to call others names.

Muslims may make up 2% of the population but the evidence from ABS stats overwhelmingly demonstrates that high population Muslim areas returned no votes in the survey. The fact that it did not happen just once or twice but rather multiple times clearly shows that there is a connection with Muslims and anti-ssm support and it is reasonable to conclude that they were largely responsible for the no vote in the majority of electorates. This wasn't repeated anywhere near to the same extent in Christian electorates for example.

You whinge that I am shifting the goalposts, yet this is coming from the bloke who will only refer to or accept the statistics if it suits them.

 

[JackOutback]

Do you abuse your student's like this when they refuse to buy what you are saying blindly? If so you're a good example of the need to improve teacher standards if you need to call others names.

Muslims may make up 2% of the population but the evidence from ABS stats overwhelmingly demonstrates that high population Muslim areas returned no votes in the survey. The fact that it did not happen just once or twice but rather multiple times clearly shows that there is a connection with Muslims and anti-ssm support and it is reasonable to conclude that they were largely responsible for the no vote in the majority of electorates. This wasn't repeated anywhere near to the same extent in Christian electorates for example.

You whinge that I am shifting the goalposts, yet this is coming from the bloke who will only refer to or accept the statistics if it suits them.

The numbers don't add up, 2.6 per cent of the population aren't 'largely responsible' for anything. Or is just the 'vibe' that Muslims are to blame?

 

[TimmeT]

The numbers don't add up, 2.6 per cent of the population aren't 'largely responsible' for anything. Or is just the 'vibe' that Muslims are to blame?

When they make up over 30% of a seat such as Blaxland (close enough to 1/3 persons in the electorate) or 18% of a seat like Calwell which returned no vote I think the numbers do stack up and any reasonable person would think that group has a large impact on the result of the electorate.