Nathan VB - yes I know Im about to get slaughtered

[jo172]

And please enlighten me how is Reilly an outside midfielder?!

A former AFL commentator probably said so and since he played in the AFL he must be right!

 

[ThePeckers]

I would give up VB for Pav any day of the week

 

[Crow-mo]

Fact is, his last 2 months have been shite -

www.dictionary.com

look up fact. seems to be the most abused and misunderstood word on these forums.

 

[Crow-mo]

I didnt realise VB was your brother/son/father/mother/sister?

boring.

And in case you didnt realise, he's in our midfield rotation. If he was assigned a tagging role on the weekend he failed (as per the freo stats I posted previously) and if he's not then he's surely not getting tagged so he should be getting more of the ball.

logically this doesn't make sense.

you make all these statements about his output, and then admit you don't even know what his role was on the weekend.

how can you say you don't know, in the midst of polemic?

 

[Crow-mo]

Ask yourselves, surely VB should get a fair share of the ball considering our better midfielders are getting tageed? Hell he should be racking up the numbers to offset the close attention paid to Edwards and Goodwin and the like.

well seeing as you've already admitted you don't know his role, why should your generalised views be taken as anything other than random hot air?

"I don't know if he's tagging, if he's a primary ball winner, what his rotations are etc etc etc" this is your polemic remember, yours. and your doing a shit job. you're making it impossible for anyone to agree with you.

Ask yourselves, with all these "career best" numbers he's supposedly racking up, how many forward 50 entries does he get credit for? Thats the primary role of a midfielder, to transition the ball from defence to attack.

again, why ask the question: if you're so sure, you should be supplying the answers. you keep claiming to have the inside track, all the while highlighting key points you don't have knowledge of.

this does not make sense, not matter how much you try to convince yourself. it just doesn't.

that said, I struggle to see what you're seeing. you highlight his last 2 months as being especially poor (i.e. standing out as unusually ordinary by his own standards) when they sure do seem to be the best 2 months of his career. that's an ambitious line of thinking

you might be right, you might be wrong, what is clear is that you have no idea how to advance an argument. none.

 

[Crow-mo]

Please keep up...I said we have heaps of his type...so clearly losing him is not going to detract much from our list now is it

um... because "you said" does not have the natural implication you'd like it to.

perhaps you can start by identifying who you think all these similar midfielders are? stylistically, I think we do not have many of his type at all.

 

[Crow-mo]

What, you dont think you can spot who's trying to match up on who in a close shot of a centre square contest, stoppage, or boundary throw in? You're funny

don't laugh so hard there champ, you've already stated quite the opposite.

but you keep contradicting yourself over and over, so...

 

[Crow-mo]

People dont have to agree with me and Im not saying Im right (in fact the Brady Rawlings comment will have me looking again at the Roos game). But people who come in with a wholier than thou attitude when it suits them lack courage in my book.

oh, so you've gone from "I know, I know" to I'm just trying to start a discussion. seems your holier than attitude has undergone an about face. very courageous there sport

 

[smoovy]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of everyone on this board, I have to say how completely disappointing VB's form has been over the last 2 months. He looked shot to pieces against Freo, constantly turning the ball over, shocking disposal, no defensive action. I cant believe Champion Data had him down as only 3 clangers - I counted 5 at least.

I'd put him up for Pav - I think he's another in the mould of "good-average" players of which we have far too many.

*sits back and waits for the thundering herd*

There are a lot of rose coloured Van Berlo glasses on this board, so you were always going to get hammered.

However I have to disagree with you saying that he has been poor for the last two months. By this comment you are saying his performances have dropped off from say last years standard. I cannot agree.

Sure his last two weeks have been poor. But before that I actually declared him as taking the next step and believed he should step into the role as being our no.1 centreman.

I take some of your comments on board in that when panicked and under pressure his disposal and decision making wilts. However these are areas he is working on and I think he will only improve on. At least he has the right attitude to accepting his faults and working hard on improving them.

 

[NikkiNoo]

This is van Berlo's first full year in the midfield and IMHO he has mad a lot of progress this year. Sure he does make mistakes but so does every one else. I would say that Edwards' form this year has been more prone to criticism but there is none forthcoming.

As always Stiffy you make a lot of sense, but can I put my hand up and say that I criticised Edwards form this year and got howled down at the start.

 

[feenix67]

Now that I have recovered from Cro-mo's concerted and rather personal attack, let me reiterate, for those who have become overly emotional and consequently illiterate, my point and the point of this thread.

1. IMO VB has been disappointing in the last two months.
2. I would much rather see him involved in a Pav trade than Griffen, who IMO has more "star" potential

Clearly the post was going to be controversial. I expected that and hoped to spark lively debate (why else do we post?). However, to be ridiculed on this board as someone without a clue yada yada quite frankly leaves me a little speechless. The post wasn't "VB is the cause of all our problems, including global warming". Yet the response and vitriol I have recieved would have one think I had picked him out of a police lineup as a mass murderer or something.

As I have mentioned before, I think he has a lot of mates at the moment. I clearly rate him as a decent player, why else would I consider him a likely candidate for trade bait in relation to Pav? Freo arent going to accept any old hack are they? Or was that logic so obvious that it was missed? I dont have definitive stats, nor do I think they paint the whole picture, but as an example, his clangers have almost doubled in the last 8 games compared to the first 8, reinforcing my view that he is looking increasingly confused and panicky.

I dont question his effort levels either, he clearly is an elite athlete. But his effectiveness is questionable. I dont have access to inside 50's stats, but on watching the game against Freo I think he had one - not enough for a midfielder I would have thought.

If he became our next Bickley I'd be more than satisfied. Bickley was a total workhorse who never gave up and was a vital cog in our midfield rotations. I dont see it, but again thats just my opinion and Im happy to be proven wrong.

People here who seem to think that everyone is fair game should take a good look at themselves. You have no idea who I am, but Im sure that if you met me in the street or in a pub you wouldnt talk to me the way some have here. Last time I looked, noone here is an expert, so my opinion and my right to express it is just as valid as any other person on this board. So if you're going to reply, do it with a level of courtesy. If thats too much trouble, dont bother.

 

[Sanguinarius]

Thats why I would trade VB instead of Griff for Pav - we have truckloads of his type of player.

we do?

Chris Knights
Scott Thompson
Brent Reilly

they're similar players to VB, hey?

 

[feenix67]

I didn't comment on this thread because IMHO its not worthy of a comment. Its a case of someone making a habbit of highlighting something from a particular player when even the best in the side make greater mistakes.

Sorry but you did comment - to take a cheap shot - which is why I targeted you. And please - "making a habit (sic)"?? - I'd like you to give me examples, or are you just going to make this accusation without basis?

This is van Berlo's first full year in the midfield and IMHO he has mad a lot of progress this year. Sure he does make mistakes but so does every one else. I would say that Edwards' form this year has been more prone to criticism but there is none forthcoming. van Berlo is a kid that is still developing and is only 20 years of age. And you are quite right in saying that he will likely never be a cream of the crop midfielder, but he is well on the way to become a good 200+ game player for us in the mould of Mark Bickley. He played no worse than most of his team mates on the weekend and its only been the last couple of weeks that his form has dropped off so this 2 month window you are talking about is just something that you have planted in your head.

Did I not say he had plenty of mates against Freo? And as I point out in my post above, he is making more mistakes than earlier in the season and he is not damaging enough as a midfielder.

And despite his struggles, I saw on saturday in that 3rd quarter than he was the one willing to stand up and be counted and started giving us something in the midfield to make a come back. Like every other youngster he WILL be inconsistent but once he takes that next step (which he is on the way to taking) then I have no doubt he will be a quality player of this club and a future leader. Sure some of the people go overboard with the van Berlo love but by the same token you have gone the other way. There would be few players I would be looking at dropping well before van Berlo.

1. I agree he does always put in
2. "Sure some people go overboard..." awarded 2007 understatement of the year.
3. Dont disagree - I have previously posted about my wish for Doughty to be dropped, among others.

And on his defensive game, I couldn't disagree more. He has a very strong defensive side to his game. When Kerr was ripping Shirley to pieces, van Berlo was swung to him in the 2nd half and negated him very very well. He also can be damaging with his offensive game. Sure that side of his game is inconsistent but he brings more good than bad to the table IMHO.

When he has a defensive job to do I agree, he does quite well. My comments regarding his defensive action were in relation to when he is playing a regular midfield role. He tends to get out of position and gets caught quite regularly in the wrong positions at stoppages. I dont see him working to provide screens and shephards, or working to try and release his fellow midfielders who may be subject to a tag.

And please enlighten me how is Reilly an outside midfielder?!

My opinion based on my view of the games. I dont have any "hardball get" stats. He appears to me to get a lot of cheap disposal and goes missing at crucial times. I was hoping he would turn into a bit of a midfield game breaker but I think he's had enough time in the system to suggest he wont be that. Reminds me of David Marshall, exquisite skills, excellent player in space, not a recognised hard ball winner.

 

[Crow-mo]

Now that I have recovered from Cro-mo's concerted and rather personal attack, let me reiterate, for those who have become overly emotional and consequently illiterate, my point and the point of this thread.

actually it was rather dispassionate deconstruction on how little sense you made, and how flawed your logic was. this little burst of hysteria is just to hide how little come back you've got.
if that was too personal for you petal, I am sure you can discuss avon products or tupperware on the appropriate forums.

Clearly the post was going to be controversial. I expected that and hoped to spark lively debate (why else do we post?). However, to be ridiculed on this board as someone without a clue yada yada quite frankly leaves me a little speechless.

why? your observations were somewhat inconsistent, and you ducked all follow up.

The post wasn't "VB is the cause of all our problems, including global warming". Yet the response and vitriol I have recieved would have one think I had picked him out of a police lineup as a mass murderer or something.

whoa is me. stop being so dramatic.

As I have mentioned before, I think he has a lot of mates at the moment. I clearly rate him as a decent player, why else would I consider him a likely candidate for trade bait in relation to Pav? Freo arent going to accept any old hack are they? Or was that logic so obvious that it was missed? I dont have definitive stats, nor do I think they paint the whole picture, but as an example, his clangers have almost doubled in the last 8 games compared to the first 8, reinforcing my view that he is looking increasingly confused and panicky.

a more meaningful stat would be his clanger count as % of his total possessions. how has that changed from the first 8 games over the second?

People here who seem to think that everyone is fair game should take a good look at themselves. You have no idea who I am, but Im sure that if you met me in the street or in a pub you wouldnt talk to me the way some have here.

look, aside from the slightly pathetic pseudo physical posturing implied here, all you've done is come on, made a big deal about how you see it right, and everyone else is wrong; and then threw a hissy fit when you got picked apart. pretty sure we always had a name for people like that in the pub too.

 

[feenix67]

Now that I have recovered from Cro-mo's concerted and rather personal attack,

Cro-mo, one day you'll understand sarcasm It seems to me that you're the type who like to come in and snipe at posters using an elevated vocabulary. Yet, not one post from you in this thread contributes to the debate. Your efforts have merely been petty attempts at ridicule.

A good example of someone like you would be Grant Thomas, who liked to display his heightened vocabulary and advanced knowledge of the human psyche, people management techniques and all things AFL. In the end, like you, he was found to be FOS.

You say: "you might be right, you might be wrong, what is clear is that you have no idea how to advance an argument. none."

I would suggest that, on balance, your inability to stay on topic in this instance makes a mockery of your ability to judge my conversational ability.

But full marks for giving it your best shot

 

[Southerntakeover]

Cro-mo, one day you'll understand sarcasm It seems to me that you're the type who like to come in and snipe at posters using an elevated vocabulary. Yet, not one post from you in this thread contributes to the debate. Your efforts have merely been petty attempts at ridicule.

A good example of someone like you would be Grant Thomas, who liked to display his heightened vocabulary and advanced knowledge of the human psyche, people management techniques and all things AFL. In the end, like you, he was found to be FOS.

You say: "you might be right, you might be wrong, what is clear is that you have no idea how to advance an argument. none."

I would suggest that, on balance, your inability to stay on topic in this instance makes a mockery of your ability to judge my conversational ability.

But full marks for giving it your best shot

So, you dont like being told you dont have a clue, yet thats the second person youve called 'full of shit'. Double standards anyone?

Dont fall back onto emotive crap like 'you're being mean' when you lose an arguement.

 

[jenny61_99]

For what it's worth Feenix I also believe VB's games have been down - but only for the last 2 weeks. I feel he has really struggled, his disposal has been poor, and tackles not sticking, but he is not on his pat malone there! As for trading him for Pav?? No thanks, I'd rather keep him because I do believe he has great potential for YEARS to come. Pav is a quick fix but ultimately short term. We need to be thinking of the long term future now (particularly considering the certain loss of Roo, McLeod, Goodwin, Edwards, Torney etc etc in the next couple of years).

 

[Southerntakeover]

For what it's worth Feenix I also believe VB's games have been down - but only for the last 2 weeks. I feel he has really struggled, his disposal has been poor, and tackles not sticking, but he is not on his pat malone there! As for trading him for Pav?? No thanks, I'd rather keep him because I do believe he has great potential for YEARS to come. Pav is a quick fix but ultimately short term. We need to be thinking of the long term future now (particularly considering the certain loss of Roo, McLeod, Goodwin, Edwards, Torney etc etc in the next couple of years).

2 weeks fair enough. Two months? Not.

 

[feenix67]

For what it's worth Feenix I also believe VB's games have been down - but only for the last 2 weeks. I feel he has really struggled, his disposal has been poor, and tackles not sticking, but he is not on his pat malone there! As for trading him for Pav?? No thanks, I'd rather keep him because I do believe he has great potential for YEARS to come. Pav is a quick fix but ultimately short term. We need to be thinking of the long term future now (particularly considering the certain loss of Roo, McLeod, Goodwin, Edwards, Torney etc etc in the next couple of years).

Actually jenny I agree with you re not getting Pav. I posted on one of the pav threads that to use draft picks to get Pav at a time when our premier midfielders are nearing retirement would be counter-productive. I guess my statement should have been prefaced with "If we were to trade for Pav......"

 

[Southerntakeover]

Actually jenny I agree with you re not getting Pav. I posted on one of the pav threads that to use draft picks to get Pav at a time when our premier midfielders are nearing retirement would be counter-productive. I guess my statement should have been prefaced with "If we were to trade for Pav......"

If your majory worry is our aging midfield stocks, why would you rather trade a young midfielder who is doing well, than a Ruckman, given we have fairly good ruck stocks as well.

 

[Crow-mo]

Cro-mo, one day you'll understand sarcasm

I already understand people who come in full of hot air and go to water when challenged.

It seems to me that you're the type who like to come in and snipe at posters using an elevated vocabulary. Yet, not one post from you in this thread contributes to the debate. Your efforts have merely been petty attempts at ridicule.

well I'm ok, with anything that "seems to you".

oh, and it's quite cute that you think this was a debate. Mr "I don't know what his role was, but whatever it was, it wasn't good enough". ho ho, good times.

A good example of someone like you would be Grant Thomas, who liked to display his heightened vocabulary and advanced knowledge of the human psyche, people management techniques and all things AFL. In the end, like you, he was found to be FOS.

well I think Grant Thomas' stock is rising this year given the season they're having under Ross Lyon. I guess that's another of your quality insights.

you know what, I really admire the advanced thinking and conceptual analysis of someone who comes in with an underdeveloped argument and an overdeveloped emotional side, but is never too cool to use terms like FOS - is that because of your limited vocabulary and plodding intellect? full of shit presumably? wow. so very clever as well, the way you choose to leave it out there unexplained, no doubt giggling like a school girl to yourself.

that sort of thing used to get a real laugh in the back of the classroom in high school didn't it? no one thought you were a discredited shambles when you couldn't back up yourself up then. ah those were they days, eh?

You say: "you might be right, you might be wrong, what is clear is that you have no idea how to advance an argument. none."

I would suggest that, on balance, your inability to stay on topic in this instance makes a mockery of your ability to judge my conversational ability.

oooh you used mockery in a sentence. 10 points! do I have to sign something for your scout master? well done you

But full marks for giving it your best shot

nah, i think I need to mark myself down for shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[feenix67]

So, you dont like being told you dont have a clue, yet thats the second person youve called 'full of shit'. Double standards anyone?

Dont fall back onto emotive crap like 'you're being mean' when you lose an arguement.

I dont mind being told I dont have a clue - hell I get it from my wife most days . Cro-mo contributed nothing to the discussion, except for his view on my ability to run an argument, which is not the subject of this thread. Having said that, I will return fire if fired upon

 

[Crow-mo]

So, you dont like being told you dont have a clue, yet thats the second person youve called 'full of shit'. Double standards anyone?

you worked out what it means too. maybe he needs to work on his code a bit better?

 

[Crow-mo]

I dont mind being told I dont have a clue - hell I get it from my wife most days . Cro-mo contributed nothing to the discussion, except for his view on my ability to run an argument, which is not the subject of this thread. Having said that, I will return fire if fired upon

yes, we've all felt the wrath of your FOS's.
please, anything but that.

 

[jenny61_99]

you worked out what it means too. maybe he needs to work on his code a bit better?

I think it's time you started playing the ball, not the man.