Non-AFL chat thread part 2

[maddog37]

What part?

Ummm. Xenophobic. Please explain. U with me?

 

[The_torpedo]

All of these dodgy dealings may help explain why party politics generally is on the nose and a well-credentialled hard-working independent with demonstrated integrity is often very attractive.

It's just a shame that the nature of our democracy means it's always going to be one of those big two party groupings (ALP or Lib/NP Coalition) that forms government. Occasional minority governments are OK but perpetual minority governments (eg Italy, Japan) are problematical.

One wonders what would have happened if Bernie won the primaries & election in 2016/2020

 

[D Mitchell]

Yes, as I said originally, our democracy does gravitate towards party politics. A parliament full of independents would be chaotic - I reckon parties or factions of some sort would inevitably coalesce. However there's still an important role for an ethical cross-bench.

The benefit of parties (in theory) is that one lot can go in and implement their policies without interference or compromise. That is, you should be able to get an integrated, well thought out vision for the country, and a co-ordinated program of delivery of that vision.

In practice what we're seeing more and more is small-target election campaigns (such as Howard in the early 2000s and policy-free ScoMo at the last election) where the sole aim is to appear anodyne and comforting, seasoned with a few well-targeted electoral bribes so that you retain power.

That's a huge challenge for our democracy. It's delivering static, reactive government with no real program for development of the country other than let independent operators dig it up and take it away. Labor is only slightly better in this area of policy proposal but every time it sets out an agenda it creates a huge target on its back which is used for misinformation and scaremongering at election time. That's a huge disincentive to put forward anything constructive next time.

The following has been attributed variously to Alexander Tytler and Alexis de Tocqueville but whoever said it, it bears some thinking about.

Obviously we haven't reached that end-stage yet, if it really does work that way. But are we mature, perceptive and selfless enough to vote for a candidate (or party) that promises what's best for the nation rather than the one that offers the biggest personal kickback? I'm not encouraged by what I've seen in the last 20 years.

I’d like to translate parts of your post

Howard in the early 2000s and policy-free ScoMo at the last election)

Tr “Traditional adherence to conservative values, small-government and balanced books.”

...sole aim is to appear anodyne and comforting, seasoned with a few well-targeted electoral bribes

Tr “maintain present policies and values that the Electorate consistently accepts and with the commitment to small government finances”.

…very time it sets out an agenda it creates a huge target on its back which is used for misinformation and scaremongering at election time

Tr …” electorally stupid proposals that voters hate, Carbon Tax, More taxes, Subsidies for Green Energy, Disability Pensions, all those Shorten promises, Climate “emergency”, denunciation of Adani (that worked well in Qld, didn’t it)”

They all sound good in Canberra, inner Melbourne, inner Sydney, the Guardian and in the Fairfax press gallery but the rest of the Country see as a wank that will cost them.

At the time of the Scot and French pontifications about the future of democracy, Aus had yet to be invaded (how do you think that'll go ?). What will kill democracy is more likely to be mob rule which we are currently seeing in the US and, unbelievably, the home of Rule of Law, Britain. It hasn’t got that bad here because there isn’t any real rage here, just the expected ape of US protests, nothing's changed since 1966. A more immediate issue is disengagement of politicians from their constituents. I can’t see democracy disappearing easily here, too many of us, from those whose great great grand parents arrived mid 19th Century to PRs from Mainland China know and pass on skepticism of more autocratic regimes.

 

[dogwatch]

I’d like to translate parts of your post

Howard in the early 2000s and policy-free ScoMo at the last election)

Tr “Traditional adherence to conservative values, small-government and balanced books.”

...sole aim is to appear anodyne and comforting, seasoned with a few well-targeted electoral bribes

Tr “maintain present policies and values that the Electorate consistently accepts and with the commitment to small government finances”.

…very time it sets out an agenda it creates a huge target on its back which is used for misinformation and scaremongering at election time

Tr …” electorally stupid proposals that voters hate, Carbon Tax, More taxes, Subsidies for Green Energy, Disability Pensions, all those Shorten promises, Climate “emergency”, denunciation of Adani (that worked well in Qld, didn’t it)”

They all sound good in Canberra, inner Melbourne, inner Sydney, the Guardian and in the Fairfax press gallery but the rest of the Country see as a wank that will cost them.

At the time of the Scot and French pontifications about the future of democracy, Aus had yet to be invaded (I thought you might like that). What will kill democracy is more likely to be mob rule which we are currently seeing in the US and, unbelievably, the home of Rule of Law, Britain. It hasn’t got that bad here because there isn’t any real rage here, just the expected ape of US protests, just as they did in the Vietnam era. A more immediate issue is disengagement of politicians from their constituents. I can’t see democracy disappearing easily here, too many of us, from those whose great great grand parents arrived mid 19th Century to PRs from Mainland China know and pass on skepticism of more autocratic regimes.

We're seeing democracy diminished here year by year.

 

[D Mitchell]

I...

Back in November 2019, the Coalition tried to get through their union busting bill which would have been disastrous for workers rights as it would make it almost trivial to bring down unions, but One Nation (despite being right wing and teaming with the Coalition) and Jacqui Lambie voted with Labor and Greens to defeat it.

If those two were forced to go with a major, both would obviously be Coalition, in which case such a concerning bill may actually have been successful. Small parties and independents are vital for our democracy

Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Ensuring Integrity) Bill 2019. was defeated. As I recall, it was on the basis of an attack on freedom of association. That goes back to the 19th Century Tolpuddle Martyrs, pretty fundamental principle, beyond just unionism. I'll accept your on the ground version of Hansen and Lambie opposing it. But even if they had sided with the Coalition and the Bill proclaimed, if the Electorate, as distinct from a minority, unions now represent around 19 % of employees, disapproved, the Coalition would be be outed in 2 years time and the Act repealed. Put another way, if the ALP campaigned better, read that as proffered policies suitable to Tasmania and Qld, rather than inner Melbourne, it would have been in Government.

 

[Virgin Dog]

Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Ensuring Integrity) Bill 2019. was defeated. As I recall, it was on the basis of an attack on freedom of association. That goes back to the 19th Century Tolpuddle Martyrs, pretty fundamental principle, beyond just unionism. I'll accept your on the ground version of Hansen and Lambie opposing it. But even if they had sided with the Coalition and the Bill proclaimed, if the Electorate, as distinct from a minority, unions now represent around 19 % of employees, disapproved, the Coalition would be be outed in 2 years time and the Act repealed. Put another way, if the ALP campaigned better, read that as proffered policies suitable to Tasmania and Qld, rather than inner Melbourne, it would have been in Government.

I don't have confidence the government would be out. Look at all the failures of the current government that was only recently reelected.

People STILL believe the horsecrap of "better economic managers" despite that not having been true since before the Howard-era. Look at how poorly the bushfires were handled. That includes the promise of a $2 billion fund that NEVER EVEN EXISTED. And yet, the government's approval ratings are at some of the best levels they've seen in years. The average voter forgets very fast, we can't afford to trust that there are consequences for poor policy, because the only people who face consequences are the Australian people

 

[D Mitchell]

We're seeing democracy diminished here year by year.

Times are changing. 24 hour cycle, instant news. I wouldn't be a politician for all the tea in China (is that OK to say ?), with the exception of a safe seat in the Legislative Council, the ultimate Fat City, I'll make myself available if a Party offers. The present crop are probably no better or worse than John Curtin and his mates. Billy Hughes is an even better example, the electorate didn't even have radio. I think we are more democratic because we are so much better informed.

 

[D Mitchell]

I don't have confidence the government would be out. Look at all the failures of the current government that was only recently reelected.

People STILL believe the horsecrap of "better economic managers" despite that not having been true since before the Howard-era. Look at how poorly the bushfires were handled. That includes the promise of a $2 billion fund that NEVER EVEN EXISTED. And yet, the government's approval ratings are at some of the best levels they've seen in years. The average voter forgets very fast, we can't afford to trust that there are consequences for poor policy, because the only people who face consequences are the Australian people

Ah, yes but that's because you wouldn't have liked the bill to have gotten up. To 80 % of the Population, it would have made no difference, save the odd rogue tennis club. That's life in a democracy, not everyone gets what he/she wants. Morrison was crucified by the Fairfax Press and th rest of the media piled on. Government ratings are now good because of the Pandemic. The Government has been over generous, probably because of the Bushfire debacle. The Electorate doesn't easily forget things that effect it.

 

[Virgin Dog]

Ah, yes but that's because you wouldn't have liked the bill to have gotten up. To 80 % of the Population, it would have made no difference, save the odd rogue tennis club. That's life in a democracy, not everyone gets what he/she wants. Morrison was crucified by the Fairfax Press and th rest of the media piled on. Government ratings are now good because of the Pandemic. The Government has been over generous, probably because of the Bushfire debacle. The Electorate doesn't easily forget things that effect it.

They promised $2 billion to help rebuild fire-affected areas, yet that money never existed in the first place. That money would have done so much, and so many people were given false hope. There was never any intention of paying it, they just said it for cheap political gain.

That's beyond politicians just lying, that should be classed as fraud.

 

[BEaston]

Yep, which I had ahead of ON. I just meant I had ON ahead of Libs and Nats, not that they had my number 1 spot. They were all quite far down on my docket

haha oh s**t, I missed that part. Gotchya

 

[D Mitchell]

They promised $2 billion to help rebuild fire-affected areas, yet that money never existed in the first place. That money would have done so much, and so many people were given false hope. There was never any intention of paying it, they just said it for cheap political gain.

That's beyond politicians just lying, that should be classed as fraud.

I'm not on top of that, VD (I hesitated as I typed your initials, reflex) so I can't respond save that that looks like the responsibility of Insurance companies, too. I'll join you in criticism of a Government that promises what it can't deliver, though.

 

[Virgin Dog]

I'm not on top of that, VD (I hesitated as I typed your initials, reflex) so I can't respond save that that looks like the responsibility of Insurance companies, too. I'll join you in criticism of a Government that promises what it can't deliver, though.

Yeah the insurance part is messy. I don't feel it's strictly the government's responsibility to pay for these things, as that's what insurance is for (although I believe some people - not all - weren't actually able to be insured). My issue there was that the government made such a promise without ever actually intending on keeping it. They knew it was a lie right when they said it, and everything has just been forgotten

 

[Mattdougie]

Yeah the insurance part is messy. I don't feel it's strictly the government's responsibility to pay for these things, as that's what insurance is for (although I believe some people - not all - weren't actually able to be insured). My issue there was that the government made such a promise without ever actually intending on keeping it. They knew it was a lie right when they said it, and everything has just been forgotten

How can you not be able to be insured? More like didn’t want to pay the great expense of insurance because they live in a bushfire zone.

Could never work out why some made out it was the governments fault to rebuild people’s houses

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

I will never shut up over this issue Maddog. The discussion started as it was relevant to CV19 because the crew of the live export ship that docked in Freo was delayed in departing due to the crew having the virus. The rest of the live export discussion was due to the decision in parliament yesterday.

So oops! It's not in the correct thread. Apols.

Carry on.

NBates, good on you, it’s a topic a lot of people like to forget and it makes them uncomfortable being reminded of it. If I remember Gillard wanted the conditions in other countries to improve before it was reinstated, obviously this Government puts profit before animal welfare.

 

[Virgin Dog]

How can you not be able to be insured? More like didn’t want to pay the great expense of insurance because they live in a bushfire zone.

Could never work out why some made out it was the governments fault to rebuild people’s houses

Some areas are so dangerous to build the insurers will not provide insurance. So they literally can't.

Of course that raises the question - why would you live there or build a home there...

 

[NBates]

NBates, good on you, it’s a topic a lot of people like to forget and it makes them uncomfortable being reminded of it. If I remember Gillard wanted the conditions in other countries to improve before it was reinstated, obviously this Government puts profit before animal welfare.

The Gillard govt wanted to ban it for 6 months to address all aspects of animal welfare right across the horrific journey.

That was after Aussies saw horrific footage of what these animals have to suffer - frying before dying in the hottest part of the globe on route and the treatment once disembarked before archaic slaughter practices. I'd post photos, but I'd get banned from here I'm sure. But there's more. Long road trains journey through the heat of the day in Australia and languishing in smelly barren loading pens. Animal pee & poo being dumped by these ships straight into the ocean.

I mean if these were domestic pets all parties and all Govt would stop it outright because Australians wouldn't accept it. But it's easier for us to keep farm animals out of mind, out of sight.

We just need to wake up and have decent human beings speak up about it and put their vote where their morality is. Animals don't have a choice. We do.

Any economic fallout from stopping this business can be addressed. We're humans. We are able to pre-empt and make changes to transform for the better. Animals don't have this power. It's up to us to demand change for the better.

 

[Mattdougie]

The USA won’t have any police if this keeps going on

Charged with murder for doing your job in a pathetic attempt to virtue signal. Why would anyone risk their lives for this cr@p they are copping now?

 

[D Mitchell]

The USA won’t have any police if this keeps going on

Charged with murder for doing your job in a pathetic attempt to virtue signal. Why would anyone risk their lives for this cr@p they are copping now?

The next day, 57 members of the Buffalo Emergency Response Team resigned over action against police officers who pushed over the 75 year old, the full team. The catch is that they are still employed as police so it's not quite the principled stand that it first looks like. Tough job, riot control.

 

[LittleG]

The next day, 57 members of the Buffalo Emergency Response Team resigned over action against police officers who pushed over the 75 year old, the full team. The catch is that they are still employed as police so it's not quite the principled stand that it first looks like. Tough job, riot control.

Tough job, pushing an old man to the ground. An old man who is still hospitalised with a brain injury(still!).


The officer in charge that day, both the one in charge of the line and the one above him are both as responsible as the officers involved in the push.

 

[Mattdougie]

The next day, 57 members of the Buffalo Emergency Response Team resigned over action against police officers who pushed over the 75 year old, the full team. The catch is that they are still employed as police so it's not quite the principled stand that it first looks like. Tough job, riot control.

it’s hilarious that some are judging all police by the actions of a few

Not that it’s acceptable at any number but a total of 9 unarmed black men were shot in the USA last year By police (3 by fellow black officers) and that’s in a total of over 14.4 million arrests and nearly 200 million police interactions.

More Black people have died in the peaceful “protests” in the last month

 

[D Mitchell]

i... but a total of 9 unarmed black men were shot in the USA last year By police (3 by fellow black officers) and that’s in a total of over 14.4 million arrests and nearly 200 million police interactions.
...

I've already made up my mind, don't confuse me with facts

 

[LittleG]

My earliest memories of Radio was listen to the news around breakfast with my family. That morning News service, ABC 7:45 am news is going....

Murdoch got his wish.

 

[Mattdougie]

I've already made up my mind, don't confuse me with facts

Facts are unimportant it’s the feelings that matter and how offended our pretend to be.

in still trying to work out why any movement/organisation/policy etc would concentrate on fixing 10% of the issue while ignoring 90%. Well I’m actually not confused I know why but that’s the world we live in.

 

[LittleG]

I've already made up my mind, don't confuse me with facts

My take on the issues that some African-Americans face:

Multiple generations of people who have never seen anyone work hard for anything. Never seen someone strive and achieve. Never understood that they have control over their own destiny. That they could actually change the course of their lives by putting forth a little effort. They are stuck in perpetual asking and not doing.

Instead... we just keep pouring in more money... and every year it gets worse... and every year we decide that maybe we haven't yet pissed away enough money.. and that more would help.

You're creating generations of people who cannot escape the cycle of dependency because people aren't willing to consider the idea that the "help" is the problem. It's heartbreaking.

The cycle is perpetuated by the parents who never give their children an example of aspiration to do better. Too many will never take responsibility for their own failings and just stick out their hands.

These problems aren’t confined to African Americans, I see this every time I go out into the towns / cities in Australia too.


Since this is political commentary, I apologise for anyone that would prefer this thread not be polluted with thoughts like these.

 

[D Mitchell]

My take on the issues that some African-Americans face:

Multiple generations of people who have never seen anyone work hard for anything. Never seen someone strive and achieve. Never understood that they have control over their own destiny. That they could actually change the course of their lives by putting forth a little effort. They are stuck in perpetual asking and not doing.

Instead... we just keep pouring in more money... and every year it gets worse... and every year we decide that maybe we haven't yet pissed away enough money.. and that more would help.

You're creating generations of people who cannot escape the cycle of dependency because people aren't willing to consider the idea that the "help" is the problem. It's heartbreaking.

The cycle is perpetuated by the parents who never give their children an example of aspiration to do better. Too many will never take responsibility for their own failings and just stick out their hands.

These problems aren’t confined to African Americans, I see this every time I go out into the towns / cities in Australia too.


Since this is political commentary, I apologise for anyone that would prefer this thread not be polluted with thoughts like these.

I agree, painting groups as victims doesn't help them escape victimhood. Watch out for the offended, though.