Non-AFL chat thread part 2

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LittleG

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I agree, painting groups as victims doesn't help them escape victimhood. Watch out for the offended, though.
Because you agreed with me.... You might need a big flu shot!!!!



I know it isn’t Friday but I hope the weekend has been better for you.
 

dogwatch

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My take on the issues that some African-Americans face:

Multiple generations of people who have never seen anyone work hard for anything. Never seen someone strive and achieve. Never understood that they have control over their own destiny. That they could actually change the course of their lives by putting forth a little effort. They are stuck in perpetual asking and not doing.

Instead... we just keep pouring in more money... and every year it gets worse... and every year we decide that maybe we haven't yet pissed away enough money.. and that more would help.

You're creating generations of people who cannot escape the cycle of dependency because people aren't willing to consider the idea that the "help" is the problem. It's heartbreaking.

The cycle is perpetuated by the parents who never give their children an example of aspiration to do better. Too many will never take responsibility for their own failings and just stick out their hands.

These problems aren’t confined to African Americans, I see this every time I go out into the towns / cities in Australia too.


Since this is political commentary, I apologise for anyone that would prefer this thread not be polluted with thoughts like these.
Handing out money and sympathy is probably easier than dealing with the underlying problems and it assuages any matters of conscience.

I don't know enough about the US situation and even here I'm like a lot of urban Australians - not directly involved with indigenous issues despite a fair amount of reading on it. Their claims appear to be that the problem is structural.

As soon as ideas are put forward to address this they are deemed to be too radical, e.g. the Uluru Statement.
 

D Mitchell

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Because you agreed with me.... You might need a big flu shot!!!!



I know it isn’t Friday but I hope the weekend has been better for you.
Thanks, humour again. Last week no tougher than most. Every week is tough for most of us, Friday evening's the time to relax a bit. There are a lot having far tougher weeks than me.
 

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D Mitchell

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Handing out money and sympathy is probably easier than dealing with the underlying problems and it assuages any matters of conscience.

I don't know enough about the US situation and even here I'm like a lot of urban Australians - not directly involved with indigenous issues despite a fair amount of reading on it. Their claims appear to be that the problem is structural.

As soon as ideas are put forward to address this they are deemed to be too radical, e.g. the Uluru Statement.
You can read/listen to Anne Aly or Karla Grant, bemoaning the terrible state of Aborigines on national TV, no solution offered, on the one hand or Shirleen Campbell, campaigning for victims of abuse of Aboriginal women and children and Jacinta Price, Alice Springs council member on Aborigines taking responsibility on t’other. Bashed Aborigine women and neglected Aborigine children are immediate problems to be solved. It isn’t the Government or non Aboriginal Australians doing the bashing and/or neglecting.

There’s no immediate, certainly no easy, solution to disadvantage. It isn’t structural or institutional, they are 2 words that relieve both Aborigines and public servants who administer, of responsibility. Rule of Law and first World standards of living are here to stay. The eggs can’t be unscrambled.

You have access to enough information to express an opinion, as long as you are prepared to listen to others who may have even more information, are prepared to evaluate what you hear/read and have enough flexibility to change your mind, feel free to proclaim. But be careful how you express it.
 

dogwatch

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You can read/listen to Anne Aly or Karla Grant, bemoaning the terrible state of Aborigines on national TV, no solution offered, on the one hand or Shirleen Campbell, campaigning for victims of abuse of Aboriginal women and children and Jacinta Price, Alice Springs council member on Aborigines taking responsibility on t’other. Bashed Aborigine women and neglected Aborigine children are immediate problems to be solved. It isn’t the Government or non Aboriginal Australians doing the bashing and/or neglecting.

There’s no immediate, certainly no easy, solution to disadvantage. It isn’t structural or institutional, they are 2 words that relieve both Aborigines and public servants who administer, of responsibility. Rule of Law and first World standards of living are here to stay. The eggs can’t be unscrambled.

You have access to enough information to express an opinion, as long as you are prepared to listen to others who may have even more information, are prepared to evaluate what you hear/read and have enough flexibility to change your mind, feel free to proclaim. But be careful how you express it.
Reading your comments I think we are a long long way apart on this issue DM.
Tempting as it is to respond to each of your comments I think it'd become a drawn out threadkiller.

So taking your advice I'll pursue my interest in this issue elsewhere. (First hand sources where I can get them.)
 

D Mitchell

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Reading your comments I think we are a long long way apart on this issue DM.
Tempting as it is to respond to each of your comments I think it'd become a drawn out threadkiller.

So taking your advice I'll pursue my interest in this issue elsewhere. (First hand sources where I can get them.)
Nothing wrong with being a long way apart, DW, Xmas Lunches would be boring, otherwise. If you have or stumble across first hand sources, particularly first hand sources, please let me know, I have been known to change my mind (I voted ALP for most of my life). The next Mitchell Xmas Dinner will be a ripper.
 

ManOfClay

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Man I’m getting old.

Normally a Sunday morning would be spent hungover, probably sore from footy, now it’s a golf lesson and back home to froth over my new solar panels and the ability to monitor in real time how much energy i’m generating and using and what I’m putting back into the grid in anticipation of the tariff I’ll receive once the paperwork is ticked off.
 

Floridog

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I agree, painting groups as victims doesn't help them escape victimhood. Watch out for the offended, though.
Pretending that groups are not victims certainly doesn't help them escape victimhood. You should do a little research into Black Wall Street or the Greenwood Massacre to get an idea of what happens when African Americans work hard and achieve.
 

Mattdougie

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The tide is turning for the BLM corporation with many organisations and major sporting clubs calling them out and moving away from them and their agenda.

I wonder if we in this country have the strength to be honest also and stand against this Organisation and it’s destructive hidden agendas? Doubt it when we are flooded with virtue signalling PC warriors but one can only hope.

Ps before anyone starts the organisation and movement while intrinsically linked are not the same thing.
 
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D Mitchell

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Pretending that groups are not victims certainly doesn't help them escape victimhood. You should do a little research into Black Wall Street or the Greenwood Massacre to get an idea of what happens when African Americans work hard and achieve.
Thanks for that reference, I hadn't heard of that incident in particular. Is your focus on that the blacks there were aspirant or black ? Rhetorical question, I don't expect a response. My proposition, that depicting a group as victims, isn't helpful to them, is in the context of Aborigines. I'd prefer to keep out of debates about racism in the US.
 

Next Waiting

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Pretending that groups are not victims certainly doesn't help them escape victimhood. You should do a little research into Black Wall Street or the Greenwood Massacre to get an idea of what happens when African Americans work hard and achieve.
I saw a doco on that incident a few years ago. Utterly despicable. The racial undercurrents in the US appear as long standing as they are seething....so many black victims over the last century (at least) of terrible and widespread injustices that we could barely comprehend from our relatively privilidged time and place in history.
Barely acknowledged and rarely if ever addressed, I find it utterley unsurprising the place is a tinderbox.
 

LittleG

Norm Smith Medallist
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I saw a doco on that incident a few years ago. Utterly despicable. The racial undercurrents in the US appear as long standing as they are seething....so many black victims over the last century (at least) of terrible and widespread injustices that we could barely comprehend from our relatively privilidged time and place in history.
Barely acknowledged and rarely if ever addressed, I find it utterley unsurprising the place is a tinderbox.
Many of the ‘white males’ over there I talk to, feel like the current environment is discriminating against them. That the movement toward equality has gone too far. Women, African Americans, Latinos, Gay/Lesbian & Asian; are all getting jobs before them as a result of quota filling. Globalisation is causing corporations to move jobs offshore, which is making the situation worse. Less jobs = more angst.


Gun sales at record levels. I would say powder keg is a better description.
 

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Next Waiting

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Many of the ‘white males’ over there I talk to, feel like the current environment is discriminating against them. That the movement toward equality has gone too far. Women, African Americans, Latinos, Gay/Lesbian & Asian; are all getting jobs before them as a result of quota filling. Globalisation is causing corporations to move jobs offshore, which is making the situation worse. Less jobs = more angst.


Gun sales at record levels. I would say powder keg is a better description.
I can't even begin to imagine how you go about fixing something like that other than being certain Trump is not part of the solution...if there is one.
 

LittleG

Norm Smith Medallist
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I can't even begin to imagine how you go about fixing something like that other than being certain Trump is not part of the solution...if there is one.
IF the GOP get a whipping in some key states in November, there may be movement towards a solution.... without the GOP being part of the solution, nothing will change. It has to be bipartisan or it won’t last.

I don’t like Joe Biden but he isn’t trump.
 

Virgin Dog

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Many of the ‘white males’ over there I talk to, feel like the current environment is discriminating against them. That the movement toward equality has gone too far. Women, African Americans, Latinos, Gay/Lesbian & Asian; are all getting jobs before them as a result of quota filling. Globalisation is causing corporations to move jobs offshore, which is making the situation worse. Less jobs = more angst.


Gun sales at record levels. I would say powder keg is a better description.
We're simply a few years behind the US. The PC crowd have the right idea, but in practice they completely overdo it and end up alienating large groups of people (in this case - young, straight, white males) who then become reactive and defensive. It's why at the same time as the world becoming more PC, we've also observed the rise in hateful right-wing trolls like Ben Shapiro, or even the more educated types with clear agendas like Jordan Peterson. Even a bunch of AFL players follow him.

Feminism, gay pride, BLM, etc. are concepts that anyone who isn't clearly ignorant should be agreeing with, but so often it gets twisted into becoming an "us vs them" battle. It starts early, with scholarships targetting women and minorities, then limiting places in university/tafe due to favouring indigenous people or women, then you try to enter the job market and find the same thing again. Of course people end up developing these hateful attitudes when they're being pushed down all their lives. Ironic, considering this whole movement was a result of certain demographics being disadvantaged right from the start.

We're starting to observe larger amounts of people voting for political parties that clearly have no ******* idea, and no clear ability to lead a country. In no sane society would someone like Fraser Anning develop the support that he did last election. The dude is clearly a white supremacist. There is a stark difference between conservatives, and the types of alt-right, hateful people who are enjoying growing support in western countries over the last 5 years or so.

Honestly, with people like Dutton seeing growing levels of power, we are going to end up with our own version of Trump within the next decade at the rate things are going. Pauline Hanson is harmless compared to people like him
 

D Mitchell

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I can't even begin to imagine how you go about fixing something like that other than being certain Trump is not part of the solution...if there is one.
Trump is the beginning of the solution, like Brexit. Globalisation allowed Aus to go from Keating's banana republic and Mahatir's white trash of Asia to about the highest living standard in the World, 30 years of uninterrupted growth, in less than 40 years. Perhaps a reality check is happening.

Back to your doco. It's easy for us here to piously criticise the Britain and European descended majority in the US for being racist. Roughly 150 years after the US early settlers, our former convicts and later free settlers didn't face a fierce and aggressive indigenous nor a resentful and fearsome, to them, freed oppressed of striking physical and cultural difference. You could argue that genocide took care of that, I suppose. Significant numbers of non Brit-European descendeds here has only occurred in the last 40 years or so, in enlightened times. Had that occurred 100 years ago, in less enlightened times, we might have been very different.
 

Next Waiting

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So Trump might be a catalyst for change, the darkest hour before the dawn. Still, historically these things take many generations and hundreds of years to get to the point where bygones can truly be bygones. Not sure how our time of instant gratification is going to cope with this as I reckon weve got at least a hundred years to go and maybe more.
 

Virgin Dog

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Oi, VD, what's wrong with cleaning up your room ?
Regarding Jordan Peterson, I highly recommend reading this essay:


Peterson I feel is far more dangerous than people like Milo, Ben Shapiro, etc. because they're basically trolls taking the low hanging fruit, saying controversial things for publicity then capitalising on that support. Peterson, on the other hand, is highly intelligent, and to put it bluntly - seems to be developing a pseudo-cult. He often contradicts his own rules which he built his following on, and he knows it
 

D Mitchell

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Regarding Jordan Peterson, I highly recommend reading this essay:


Peterson I feel is far more dangerous than people like Milo, Ben Shapiro, etc. because they're basically trolls taking the low hanging fruit, saying controversial things for publicity then capitalising on that support. Peterson, on the other hand, is highly intelligent, and to put it bluntly - seems to be developing a pseudo-cult. He often contradicts his own rules which he built his following on, and he knows it
Eh, it's locked.

Milo, yes, I think you are right. I haven't made up my mind about Shapiro, being American, it's hard to seperate Americanism from whacky. I'm more curious as to the identity of AFL players who are devotees of Petersen. Restricting myself to our club, I reckon they'd be

Wood, Wallis, Smith, Vandermeer, Naughton and McRae.

Rate my selection, honestly now, out of 6. If there are those I've left out, let me know. Don't worry about privacy, I won't tell anyone.
 

Next Waiting

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Trump is the beginning of the solution, like Brexit. Globalisation allowed Aus to go from Keating's banana republic and Mahatir's white trash of Asia to about the highest living standard in the World, 30 years of uninterrupted growth, in less than 40 years. Perhaps a reality check is happening.

Back to your doco. It's easy for us here to piously criticise the Britain and European descended majority in the US for being racist. Roughly 150 years after the US early settlers, our former convicts and later free settlers didn't face a fierce and aggressive indigenous nor a resentful and fearsome, to them, freed oppressed of striking physical and cultural difference. You could argue that genocide took care of that, I suppose. Significant numbers of non Brit-European descendeds here has only occurred in the last 40 years or so, in enlightened times. Had that occurred 100 years ago, in less enlightened times, we might have been very different.
I dont know that I was piously criticising the Euro desnedants for being racist. I think I was simply repulsed by some of the racially motivated murderous rampages that a number of them participated in in days gone by.
I remember being similarly repulsed by a redneck white australian I had the displeasure to meet in outback qld many years ago.

With relish he recounted the tale of how many years before hed caught a young aboriginal allegedly stealing something out of the boot of his car and how he'd physically overpowered him, tied him up, driven out of town and dropped him down a well where no one would find him.
 
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LittleG

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So Trump might be a catalyst for change, the darkest hour before the dawn. Still, historically these things take many generations and hundreds of years to get to the point where bygones can truly be bygones. Not sure how our time of instant gratification is going to cope with this as I reckon weve got at least a hundred years to go and maybe more.
I really hope Trump is the catalyst for change. That the America that comes next will be inclusive of everyone, regardless of who you are.

Our preferential voting stops movement to the extremes. I am so thankful for this.
 

D Mitchell

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I dont know that I was piously criticising the Euro desnedants for being racist. I think I was simply repulsed by some of the racially motivated murderous rampages that a number of them participated in in days gone by.
No, you weren't at all, your last dozen words or so illustrate that. we could barely comprehend from our relatively privilidged time and place in history. So many think that our lives are normal, we are super privileged. However abhorrent race relations appear, to us, to be in the US, is it any worse anywhere else in the World, excepting the Anglophone and parts of Western Europe ?
 

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