No Oppo Supporters Non Bulldog Footy Talk - Bulldogs only - Part 2

[go you pups]

FWIW with the Dees, I reckon Tyson and Brayshaw could easily transition to an outside role if needed be if they do land Rockliff on top of Lewis.

Surely Lewis can play as a mid/fwd type also like what he did 4-5 years ago, he's an excellent mark for his size, as long as he's still got agility then a defensive forward role who pinch hits in the middle could work

 

[Norm De Guerre]

So, Hawthorn effectively delist the winner and runner-up in the 2016 Peter Crimmins medal for their best and fairest.

If a family in the real world treated their elderly citizens in the same way as 'the family club' has, they'd be before a magistrate.

The norfs must be quite amused as the Karma bus arrives at Waverley park

 

[Unorth]

So, Hawthorn effectively delist the winner and runner-up in the 2016 Peter Crimmins medal for their best and fairest.

If a family in the real world treated their elderly citizens in the same way as 'the family club' has, they'd be before a magistrate.

The norfs must be quite amused as the Karma bus arrives at Waverley park

And no matter how they dress it up- 'just want Sam to advance his career'- they're doing it purely for cap space. Seems as if they've looked at it purely by the numbers. Need cap space, player is old, don't want to tie up cap space, trade for peanuts. Just forgetting the fact that they're club greats in the process.

So they're freeing up space to accommodate the JOM deal, obviously, but would be looking at the long term. Knowing the Hawks and how they like to attract stars, they'd surely have their sights set firmly on Fyfe, and probably other targets. Problem is they've removed the human element from the process. Sure, Fyfe can go to the Hawks if they have the cap space to accommodate him- but surely Fyfe would see all this and start to think it could well happen to him if he joins the Hawks.

I just don't get it. They're making moves to free up cap space, but in doing so are making themselves look really unappealing to the long term prospects of good players. There had to be a better way to handle it.

 

[LittleG]

They wanted to be #FourThorn but instead are trying for #NoMoreThorn.

 

[giblj]

Just when you think the Hawfs have come to realisation that contested ball does actually matter with them going after Titchell and O'Meara, they give away their two highest contested possession winners from this year for nothing! They only had four players who averaged 8 or more contested possies a game this season, the only team worse than that is Carlton, and now half of them are gone. Talk about two steps forward, two steps back. Huge pressure on O'Meara to perform straight away after two years out.

 

[Next Waiting]

With rumours swirling that Melbourne will bring in both Jordan Lewis and Tom Rockliff this week, I must ask: what the **** are they doing?

Rockliff, Lewis, Jones, Viney, Tyson, Brayshaw, Oliver, Neal-Bullen, Bugg, Kennedy.

That is an incredible number of low-impact, relatively inflexible players. I don't see how it works. So many of their assets have gone into the same type of player.

They keep getting praised but I don't understand their list build in the slightest.

I think you're underselling some of those players a bit Dan10 (Brayshaw, Viney and Oliver are good, tough young players). I think Macca will also have a bit of influence over it looking through the types of players they are but is right to do so. How can any team realistically expect to beat the reigning premiers without being able to compete with them at the coal face? Melbourne are building depth from the inside out (Petracca and Gawn on the list too) much like we did and look where that got us. And because it's also getting very brutal in there you need that depth and probably a season long player management and rotation system.
Melbourne are on the right track in my view and have one of the few midfields in the comp that will able to genuinely compete with us at the afore-mentioned coal face over the next few years.

 

[jdz101]

Sorry to intrude, but in whose world are Jones, Viney, Tyson, Brayshaw and Oliver low-impact players?

I think he's just making the point that there are a lot of similar inside mids there at the moment. I don't think low impact is the right word for it.

When I watch Melbourne as a neutral observer it does sort of strike me as a Macca (our old coach) type midfield sometimes where there is a giant crowd around the contest and there's good effort to get the ball fed out from the initial scrum but then the second or third possession out of there don't have a whole lot of direction or thought to them.

The matches Melbourne played against st kilda were decent examples of that. Worked hard and did well on the contest, but then got pretty heavily butchered on the spread.

Obviously working hard at the contest and winning that area is a pretty important step considering the two grand finalists this year, and sometimes a new set of eyes/new coach with a better system can unleash a lot more offensive firepower in players. Let's hope Goodwin is that for you guys and that macca isn't holding the reigns in any way because there are a few macca fingerprints on the dees in my opinion.

 

[jdz101]

Yup. Norf, meet Cliff.

From their 2016 best and fairest count:

1. Robbie Tarrant 263
2. Jack Ziebell 257
3. Sam Gibson 234
4. Daniel Wells 221
5. Brent Harvey 217
6. Jamie Macmillan 213
7. Nick Dal Santo 210
8. Ben Cunnington 207
9. Andrew Swallow 192 [headed to GC?]
10. Ben Brown 181
11. Todd Goldstein 179
12. Lindsay Thomas 177
13. Drew Petrie 167
14. Shaun Atley 156
15. Scott Thompson 146

For some reason was reading back through this thread....I think the far more concerning thing out of that list is Sam Gibson came third in their best and fairest.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I think you're underselling some of those players a bit Dan10 (Brayshaw, Viney and Oliver are good, tough young players). I think Macca will also have a bit of influence over it looking through the types of players they are but is right to do so. How can any team realistically expect to beat the reigning premiers without being able to compete with them at the coal face? Melbourne are building depth from the inside out (Petracca and Gawn on the list too) much like we did and look where that got us. And because it's also getting very brutal in there you need that depth and probably a season long player management and rotation system.
Melbourne are on the right track in my view and have one of the few midfields in the comp that will able to genuinely compete with us at the afore-mentioned coal face over the next few years.

It's not about them not being good. The players I mentioned are all good to very good - potentially elite - players. My issue is that there is a degree of similarity within the group. They have quite a large proportion of assets tied up in a group of players who to my eye have relatively similar strengths and weaknesses. For example, off the top of my head: Brayshaw - top five pick; Oliver - top five pick; Viney - second round pick; Tyson - heavily downgraded a top five pick and a top twenty pick. All will command pretty generous salaries soon as well. The group I listed in my earlier post aren't identical, but don't have massive points of difference from each other to my eye. Rockliff does not appear to be happening now and to be fair that was my biggest issue with the list. Seemed like outrageous overkill. That list alone is largely okay.

With that said, I look at the list and see a lot of similar types and almost nothing on the outside though. Some of those guys do offer a bit in that regard but are first and foremost inside types that don't excel in moving the ball systematically, nor do they really break lines to any real extent. A decent number of them are prone to turning the ball over and that's what stood out when watching the Dees this year. I think that will continue to be an issue for them this year and I'm not as convinced on them being a finals team as most in the media seem to be.

While true we were always geared towards contested ball and competing on the inside, we didn't show genuine improvement until we began to move away from that. Correlation does not equal causation but as we fielded more balanced sides we improved. Further I think our core group of midfielders had and have greater points of difference to each other than the Dees' do.

Could well prove me wrong, but I don't see it just yet.

Then again I didn't see our balance getting us a premiership so what do I know.

Sorry to intrude, but in whose world are Jones, Viney, Tyson, Brayshaw and Oliver low-impact players?

I agree we'd be stuffed to sign Rockliff, but we're not signing him.

Low-impact not the right phrase - I don't view any of them as being particularly damaging in the way they move and use the ball. I think they all play similar-ish roles also.

That said, Rockliff was my biggest issue with it. I still have doubts over whether Lewis, Jones, Viney, Tyson, Brayshaw and Oliver (plus potentially one or two of the others and Melksham) can play together successfully, but that's not really a huge issue - depth is great, as is competition for spots. I just think potentially there are a few too many assets bundled up in similar players, and that would have come to a head if you added Rockliff on his reported salary.

 

[giblj]

Well the two first rounders in four years rule didn't last long.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Wait does that mean Tuohy for a first rounder?

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Wait does that mean Tuohy for a first rounder?

There was Smedts and a future second round selection going back the other way?

 

[Hard Ball Get]

There was Smedts and a future second round selection going back the other way?

Ah ok. Because of it was a straight swap then what were they thinking.

 

[Some Idiot]

Low-impact not the right phrase - I don't view any of them as being particularly damaging in the way they move and use the ball. I think they all play similar-ish roles also.

That said, Rockliff was my biggest issue with it. I still have doubts over whether Lewis, Jones, Viney, Tyson, Brayshaw and Oliver (plus potentially one or two of the others and Melksham) can play together successfully, but that's not really a huge issue - depth is great, as is competition for spots. I just think potentially there are a few too many assets bundled up in similar players, and that would have come to a head if you added Rockliff on his reported salary.

Is Rockliff one dimensional? We're talking about a guy that was a 50-60 goal small forward as a junior. (In the Brad Johnson mold, equally capable of racking up possessions as a high half forward and using the ball well and playing out of the goal square as a marking forward) I don't think a player like that just becomes one dimensional because they've transitioned into a mostly inside midfield role.

 

[jdz101]

Ah ok. Because of it was a straight swap then what were they thinking.

Still an awful trade for geelong...

 

[Unorth]

At this point, imo, the AFL should just go full NBA- let clubs trade players wherever they want.

Pendlebury had a point in that article- players for so long have been able to bend clubs over by demanding to be traded to club(s) of their choice, severely limiting the original club's ability to get something decent back. Don't even get me started on homesickness, a card that you won't see played in America, because they understand that they're professional athletes which might just require having to move away from home. Players being able to veto any trade is also way more power than you see in other sports. We lost out on two first rounders last year because Hrovat didn't want to leave. Which is flattering and he's a great guy...But those picks would have been nice.

Just give the clubs power to have open trading. Is it traditional? No. Would it really change up how loyalty is viewed in this league? Yes. But players are changing that up anyway. The AFLPA would demand some kind of trade-off (pun not intended) in exchange for this; so make it easier to be a free agent, both restricted and unrestricted.

I know there's a certain romance in having a league where loyalty has, for the most part, remained a factor far longer than other sporting codes. I think it's just time to give clubs the power to influence trades as much as players currently do.

 

[Boristown]

At this point, imo, the AFL should just go full NBA- let clubs trade players wherever they want.

Pendlebury had a point in that article- players for so long have been able to bend clubs over by demanding to be traded to club(s) of their choice, severely limiting the original club's ability to get something decent back. Don't even get me started on homesickness, a card that you won't see played in America, because they understand that they're professional athletes which might just require having to move away from home. Players being able to veto any trade is also way more power than you see in other sports. We lost out on two first rounders last year because Hrovat didn't want to leave. Which is flattering and he's a great guy...But those picks would have been nice.

Just give the clubs power to have open trading. Is it traditional? No. Would it really change up how loyalty is viewed in this league? Yes. But players are changing that up anyway. The AFLPA would demand some kind of trade-off (pun not intended) in exchange for this; so make it easier to be a free agent, both restricted and unrestricted.

I know there's a certain romance in having a league where loyalty has, for the most part, remained a factor far longer than other sporting codes. I think it's just time to give clubs the power to influence trades as much as players currently do.

100% agreed. Homesickness, family issues, etc are laughable excuses in modern day sport. Doesn't happen in any other major league in the world. And it's only played in one freaking country. Imagine getting sold to overseas teams.

 

[Struggle]

Is deledio going to push griffey out of the side leaving him to rot in the neafl? If either of them can stay healthy that is

 

[dergert]

If the afl allow players to be traded anywhere without consent, I think players will be more inclined to honour their contracts imo. Will never happen though, with the aflpa running the show.

 

[Next Waiting]

It's not about them not being good. The players I mentioned are all good to very good - potentially elite - players. My issue is that there is a degree of similarity within the group. They have quite a large proportion of assets tied up in a group of players who to my eye have relatively similar strengths and weaknesses. For example, off the top of my head: Brayshaw - top five pick; Oliver - top five pick; Viney - second round pick; Tyson - heavily downgraded a top five pick and a top twenty pick. All will command pretty generous salaries soon as well. The group I listed in my earlier post aren't identical, but don't have massive points of difference from each other to my eye. Rockliff does not appear to be happening now and to be fair that was my biggest issue with the list. Seemed like outrageous overkill. That list alone is largely okay.

With that said, I look at the list and see a lot of similar types and almost nothing on the outside though. Some of those guys do offer a bit in that regard but are first and foremost inside types that don't excel in moving the ball systematically, nor do they really break lines to any real extent. A decent number of them are prone to turning the ball over and that's what stood out when watching the Dees this year. I think that will continue to be an issue for them this year and I'm not as convinced on them being a finals team as most in the media seem to be.

While true we were always geared towards contested ball and competing on the inside, we didn't show genuine improvement until we began to move away from that. Correlation does not equal causation but as we fielded more balanced sides we improved. Further I think our core group of midfielders had and have greater points of difference to each other than the Dees' do.

Could well prove me wrong, but I don't see it just yet.

Then again I didn't see our balance getting us a premiership so what do I know.



Low-impact not the right phrase - I don't view any of them as being particularly damaging in the way they move and use the ball. I think they all play similar-ish roles also.

That said, Rockliff was my biggest issue with it. I still have doubts over whether Lewis, Jones, Viney, Tyson, Brayshaw and Oliver (plus potentially one or two of the others and Melksham) can play together successfully, but that's not really a huge issue - depth is great, as is competition for spots. I just think potentially there are a few too many assets bundled up in similar players, and that would have come to a head if you added Rockliff on his reported salary.

I agree that Rockliff seemed surplus to requirements but I like what they have already and think Lewis is a good addition. At this stage of their progression as a team/unit, I think they've done exactly the right thing with this group they've assembled. They can win their own ball which in my view is pretty much the most important element to their build at this stage, as it was with us. Everything comes and evolves from that. A sort of horse and cart thing, the horse being your ability/appetite to contest for and win the ball. I'd be confident enough that their players are good, determined and smart enough to evolve from that platform (once laid) with experience. Add 1 or 2 like JJ to their team and they'll quickly become very dangerous but they don't necessarily need it right now. It won't derail them if that player doesn't appear for the next 12 months or so. I'm sure they're aware it's a piece they'll need to add but we may be surprised either by what they draft over the next year or alternatively who comes knocking at their door.
I can definitely see them making the 8 next season. They're 2 years behind us by my reckoning.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

The last thing we want is an NBA style system.

 

[immortalmike]

The last thing we want is an NBA style system.

Too late.

 

[glenashley]

I see some of the boys in Bali for Griffs wedding.
Gia, Coons, Will, Picken, Jake, Ray from what I could see.

 

[giblj]

So the Hawfs' first pick in this year's draft is the pick 88 they received for Mitchell. Wow.

 

[JTCWBFC]

So the Hawfs' first pick in this year's draft is the pick 88 they received for Mitchell. Wow.

Is that a joke?