MFC Fans Only Non-Dees AFL discussion - 2015

[LeverPuller]

Brad Scott missing 4 games cos he needs back surgery - convenient as hell.

 

[Bluelegs]

Does anyone on here watch offsiders? Waleed absolutely nailed the reasons behind the ridiculous response to Goodes' celebration.

Goodes didn't really offer that kind of explanation though. When asked about it he mostly just threw up his hands and said he wanted to talk about footy instead.

 

[Djcjdees]

Goodes didn't really offer that kind of explanation though. When asked about it he mostly just threw up his hands and said he wanted to talk about footy instead.

Not i the interviews i saw. He said he was representing and was proud to do so in the interviews i saw/heard

 

[Djcjdees]

I don't watch it or heard of it to be honest. but i'm interested what he had to say

Basically said that in Australia we like to think of ourselves as tolerant of minorities and we do things like indigenous rounds and then pat ourselves on the back for how progressive and multicultural we are. Everything goes fine until someone from a minority group acts out, or acts in a way that makes the 'majority' uncomfortable. Then it becomes a bit of a case of 'OI! Know your place and get back in your box, mate.'

In my experience, this nails it on the head. If Goodes had have chosen to represent his heritage in a way that is accepted by the majority (ie. some sort of compassionate speech or other platitude, maybe play some didge during the week etc), no one would have cared. However because the way he chose to do it was confusing to people (mostly because most Australians have no idea about aboriginal culture), it caused the 'majority' to freak out because he wasn't acting like he was meant to - a subservient member of the minority..

BTW Offsiders. Sports show on ABC Sunday mornings at 10am (I think). Usually pretty good, balanced show with different journos on there giving opinions. Hosted by Gerard Whately. Caro appears occasionally (and is the best performer IMO). Ange Postecoglou sometimes gets on, Waleed Aly and Gideon have become fairly regular. Old mate rugby league Roy Masters is the other regular. No ads. No matey bogan shite. Just good discussion.

 

[Cannon82]

Basically said that in Australia we like to think of ourselves as tolerant of minorities and we do things like indigenous rounds and then pat ourselves on the back for how progressive and multicultural we are. Everything goes fine until someone from a minority group acts out, or acts in a way that makes the 'majority' uncomfortable. Then it becomes a bit of a case of 'OI! Know your place and get back in your box, mate.'

In my experience, this nails it on the head. If Goodes had have chosen to represent his heritage in a way that is accepted by the majority (ie. some sort of compassionate speech or other platitude, maybe play some didge during the week etc), no one would have cared. However because the way he chose to do it was confusing to people (mostly because most Australians have no idea about aboriginal culture), it caused the 'majority' to freak out because he wasn't acting like he was meant to - a subservient member of the minority.

That's a bit reductive, and the "if this offends you, you must be a racist" argument is a cop out. If you run at people screaming like a madman, some of them might get offended, particularly if they haven't been to the U16 games in Goodesy's youth where apparently this was on display. Act like a dropkick, play the race card when people get critical.

 

[Bluelegs]

Not i the interviews i saw. He said he was representing and was proud to do so in the interviews i saw/heard

Basically said that in Australia we like to think of ourselves as tolerant of minorities and we do things like indigenous rounds and then pat ourselves on the back for how progressive and multicultural we are. Everything goes fine until someone from a minority group acts out, or acts in a way that makes the 'majority' uncomfortable. Then it becomes a bit of a case of 'OI! Know your place and get back in your box, mate.'

In my experience, this nails it on the head. If Goodes had have chosen to represent his heritage in a way that is accepted by the majority (ie. some sort of compassionate speech or other platitude, maybe play some didge during the week etc), no one would have cared. However because the way he chose to do it was confusing to people (mostly because most Australians have no idea about aboriginal culture), it caused the 'majority' to freak out because he wasn't acting like he was meant to - a subservient member of the minority..

BTW Offsiders. Sports show on ABC Sunday mornings at 10am (I think). Usually pretty good, balanced show with different journos on there giving opinions. Hosted by Gerard Whately. Caro appears occasionally (and is the best performer IMO). Ange Postecoglou sometimes gets on, Waleed Aly and Gideon have become fairly regular. Old mate rugby league Roy Masters is the other regular. No ads. No matey bogan shite. Just good discussion.

Do you think Goodes would have copped the same flak if he had directed the exact same war dance as a celebration towards his Aboriginal teammates, or at opposition players? Directing it at a concentrated section of Carlton supporters is why it's such a hot topic. Do you think anyone would have really cared if instead of Goodes doing a war dance it was Lewis Jetta or Chris Yarran doing the same thing?

I think timing is important here. Goodes having moments like this with the crowd gives him a relationship with the crowd other players don't have. One week he gets booed the next he does a war dance towards the crowd, next week the boos will be even louder because he stirred the pot.

I think to say this is all about race or to be more specific Goodes' aboriginality is a bit simplistic. And Goodes saying it had nothing to do with the crowd is also weak. Goodes maintains a heated relationship with the crowd more so than most other players.

 

[Topkent]

I don't have a problem with the dance and I wish more afl players would incite the crowd

But goodes is a ********

 

[Djcjdees]

That's a bit reductive, and the "if this offends you, you must be a racist" argument is a cop out. If you run at people screaming like a madman, some of them might get offended, particularly if they haven't been to the U16 games in Goodesy's youth where apparently this was on display. Act like a dropkick, play the race card when people get critical.

I don't think that is what he was saying. Regardless, I think it is completely fair to assume there is indeed a part of this that has to do with the levels of tolerance (and i HATE that word) that people really do have deep down. Sure I can be tolerant as long as you act in a way that has been approved by the majority, but as soon as you act as if you actually are my equal or heaven forbid, superior to me, then get back in your box. That is more what he was saying. And to me, that makes sense in this situation. If you disagree, that is fine too.

I think if we had a bit more education from a young age on aboriginal culture and somehow create an environment where we are actually proud of our aboriginal culture (as in really proud, deep down, not just 'lets have indigenous round and focus on them for a week'), then maybe people wouldn't get all offended and threatened by it.

I sorta also find it funny that it seems like we (the AFL/supporters) dictate to indigenous players how they should represent their own heritage. We say 'we are doing indigenous round to give you a chance to represent your culture/people' aren't we great? Then when someone actually does something that they feel does express their feelings on their heritage, everyone gets upset because it hasn't been preapproved or pre-explained. Can't we just be happy that something a bit different happened and not the same robotic fist pump or kiss of the badge? I can't think of anything that was wrong with it to be honest.

 

[Djcjdees]

Do you think Goodes would have copped the same flak if he had directed the exact same war dance as a celebration towards his Aboriginal teammates, or at opposition players? Directing it at a concentrated section of Carlton supporters is why it's such a hot topic. Do you think anyone would have really cared if instead of Goodes doing a war dance it was Lewis Jetta or Chris Yarran doing the same thing?

I think timing is important here. Goodes having moments like this with the crowd gives him a relationship with the crowd other players don't have. One week he gets booed the next he does a war dance towards the crowd, next week the boos will be even louder because he stirred the pot.

I think to say this is all about race or to be more specific Goodes' aboriginality is a bit simplistic. And Goodes saying it had nothing to do with the crowd is also weak. Goodes maintains a heated relationship with the crowd more so than most other players.

Weren't they sitting next to the goals that he just kicked the ball through?

And heaven forbid he stirs the pot. Yep, as long as he does things in the preapproved and vanilla way, there'll be no problem. Maybe he doesn't give a fk about yobbos booing him. Who would? It's booing. People that boo only boo because they aren't clever enough or are too lazy to think of something clever to yell IMO

 

[Cannon82]

I don't think that is what he was saying. Regardless, I think it is completely fair to assume there is indeed a part of this that has to do with the levels of tolerance (and i HATE that word) that people really do have deep down. Sure I can be tolerant as long as you act in a way that has been approved by the majority, but as soon as you act as if you actually are my equal or heaven forbid, superior to me, then get back in your box. That is more what he was saying. And to me, that makes sense in this situation. If you disagree, that is fine too.

I think if we had a bit more education from a young age on aboriginal culture and somehow create an environment where we are actually proud of our aboriginal culture (as in really proud, deep down, not just 'lets have indigenous round and focus on them for a week'), then maybe people wouldn't get all offended and threatened by it.

I sorta also find it funny that it seems like we (the AFL/supporters) dictate to indigenous players how they should represent their own heritage. We say 'we are doing indigenous round to give you a chance to represent your culture/people' aren't we great? Then when someone actually does something that they feel does express their feelings on their heritage, everyone gets upset because it hasn't been preapproved or pre-explained. Can't we just be happy that something a bit different happened and not the same robotic fist pump or kiss of the badge? I can't think of anything that was wrong with it to be honest.

I'm not sure it is about the minority / majority argument either though. He ran screaming at the opposition supporters. If anyone else had done it or something similarly aggressive towards opposition fans, the opposition crowd would still boo them, and if race wasn't in play at all, we'd probably have the likes of Luke Darcy, Flog Barrett and the rest of the moral highground collective telling all and sundry that the game doesn't need that sort of thing.

Could be right about the education thing - I haven't seen that sort of thing done by an aboriginal in sport before, and I've watched more than my fair share. On the flipside, expecting people to know is a bit ridiculous as well. My reaction on seeing it is that he'd lost his shit and looked like an eejit. I can understand the Carlton folk in that section of the crowd wanting to give their own back and then some. Carlton fans are mindless animals.

Indigenous round is a token gesture and a novel date on the AFL calendar. The fans still turn up for the footy and I'd guess that many don't care what the song and dance is before the game. Expecting everyone to say "how wonderful" at someone throwing imaginary spears around is a bit much, although it sounds more fun when you type it out like that. I don't care about the dance (as I said, looked a bit much at the time), more that it's coming from the guy who likes to play security guard during matches.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Weren't they sitting next to the goals that he just kicked the ball through?

And heaven forbid he stirs the pot. Yep, as long as he does things in the preapproved and vanilla way, there'll be no problem. Maybe he doesn't give a fk about yobbos booing him. Who would? It's booing. People that boo only boo because they aren't clever enough or are too lazy to think of something clever to yell IMO

Thats was a thing a beauty, i dont think anyone hated it except the WCE supporters, i think i speak on most people's behalf when i say as neutral supporter it was awesome, and wow what do you know? He's aboriginal..amazing huh?

Goodes on the other hand was saying how upset he was in the media the week before about the boo's then the very next game he comes out and goes straight at opposition supporters after a goal. I think that's why some people have their back up about it, you can't have it both ways sweetheart.

 

[Cannon82]

View attachment 139877

Shirt front that.

 

[Bluelegs]

Weren't they sitting next to the goals that he just kicked the ball through?

And heaven forbid he stirs the pot. Yep, as long as he does things in the preapproved and vanilla way, there'll be no problem. Maybe he doesn't give a fk about yobbos booing him. Who would? It's booing. People that boo only boo because they aren't clever enough or are too lazy to think of something clever to yell IMO

I'm not saying he shouldn't stir the pot. But if he does want to do so he'll cop the booes. My point was only that the argument that this is all about race isn't really satisfactory.

Steven Milne was also notorious for being hated by the crowd. No one gave a shit or put any more thought into it beyond the fact that he was hated for being antagonistic.

 

[Viney]

Petty or not, I don't like Goodes because of this

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Goodes has always been a dirty player. Loves sliding into players with his feet and knees.

 

[Cannon82]

Goodes has always been a dirty player. Loves sliding into players with his feet and knees.

Are you sure he's not expressing his heritage?

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Are you sure he's not expressing his heritage?

If one of his ancestors was a lawnmower, yes.

 

[Cannon82]

If one of his ancestors was a lawnmower, yes.

I've heard good things about the Victa ride-ons but I didn't realize that was one of their selling points.

 

[deeco]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-09-11/suspended-fine-for-martin

Dusty celebrates his "heritage" and gets fined $2k

 

[Djcjdees]

View attachment 139877
View attachment 139878

Thats was a thing a beauty, i dont think anyone hated it except the WCE supporters, i think i speak on most people's behalf when i say as neutral supporter it was awesome, and wow what do you know? He's aboriginal..amazing huh?

Goodes on the other hand was saying how upset he was in the media the week before about the boo's then the very next game he comes out and goes straight at opposition supporters after a goal. I think that's why some people have their back up about it, you can't have it both ways sweetheart.

Yeah i remember that. Had no problem with it, like i have no problem with what Goodes did

 

[Djcjdees]

Are you sure he's not expressing his heritage?

I'm not saying he shouldn't stir the pot. But if he does want to do so he'll cop the booes. My point was only that the argument that this is all about race isn't really satisfactory.

Steven Milne was also notorious for being hated by the crowd. No one gave a shit or put any more thought into it beyond the fact that he was hated for being antagonistic.

And I said it wasn't all about his race, but it is part of it. And when has Goodes said he isn't 'copping the boos'?

 

[Cannon82]

And I said it wasn't all about his race, but it is part of it. And when has Goodes said he isn't 'copping the boos'?

From last week.

SYDNEY Swans great Adam Goodes says he is "incredibly disappointed" he gets booed in Melbourne and has no idea why it happens.

And that's why he's the Precious.

 

[Djcjdees]

From last week.


And that's why he's the Precious.

He sure plays like he is 'incredibly disappointed.'

And I trust basically nothing that comes out of either player interviews, or articles written by journos. He can be dissapointed that he thought people were booing him for being aboriginal but seems to me like he is 'copping it' though? He's not coming out and slamming everyone that boos him is he?

Bit of a stretch to call him precious but I'm pretty much over debating it. Said what I think, and haven't been convinced to think any other way. You clearly aren't either so we are going around in circles.

 

[Cannon82]

He sure plays like he is 'incredibly disappointed.'

And I trust basically nothing that comes out of either player interviews, or articles written by journos. He can be dissapointed that he thought people were booing him for being aboriginal but seems to me like he is 'copping it' though? He's not coming out and slamming everyone that boos him is he?

Bit of a stretch to call him precious but I'm pretty much over debating it. Said what I think, and haven't been convinced to think any other way. You clearly aren't either so we are going around in circles.

If he reckons people are booing him for being aboriginal, he must think they're about 15 years slow on the uptake. Seems equally happy having a moan to umpires during games or the press afterwards, so I'm comfortable with the Precious. If he's that keen to get into political activism every week he should quit footy and go full time.

I don't have a problem with you liking Goodes and I'm not trying to change your mind. Whatever floats your boat. I don't like him, I don't mind having a dig at him and I'm happy to discuss it because it beats talking about another loss for a few days.

 

[Djcjdees]

If he reckons people are booing him for being aboriginal, he must think they're about 15 years slow on the uptake. Seems equally happy having a moan to umpires during games or the press afterwards, so I'm comfortable with the Precious. If he's that keen to get into political activism every week he should quit footy and go full time.

I don't have a problem with you liking Goodes and I'm not trying to change your mind. Whatever floats your boat. I don't like him, I don't mind having a dig at him and I'm happy to discuss it because it beats talking about another loss for a few days.

I don't particularly like him either. This isn't about liking Goodes or not for me. It's sorta not even about footy for me. Its about the attitude of our mainstream society. What Waleed said on Offsiders just resonated with me and my experience of the majority of attitudes I have come across with respect to indigenous people and with my experiences and relationships with black fellas. What he said made complete sense to me and expressed the feeling I had been having towards this over the last couple of weeks perfectly.

Even the notion of having indigenous round itself could be seen as further propagating distinctions upon racial lines couldn't it? I mean we don't have a Greek heritage round, and we've had some great Greek players contribute to the game right? However, I think the events of the last two weeks, if anything, highlight the HUGE amount of work there is to be done in this country with regard to even just the status quo attitude. Sure we have come a long long way, but I think where we need to get to is a place where indigenous round doesn't even make sense, because it is just common place for everyone, whites and blacks, to not only tolerate but be proud. Deep down proud, not just platitude proud, of sharing the country we live in with people that lived here for thousands of years. New Zealand had their problems but seem to have done a pretty good job of it i reckon. Seems that they are really proud of their Maori culture. The kiwis I know seem to genuinely know a fair bit about it and a pretty proud of it. Not sure the average Aussie does/would be though. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

I know I've gone slightly further (but as you say it's the week after a loss that Roos is blaming on the previous administration like a good politician) but I think for the time being at least stuff like this is happening in indigenous round and causing debate, which is a good thing. Hopefully it at least causes some people to think about it. I know it has had that affect on me.

At the end of the day though, i end up shaking my head and cant get away from the 'this is a whole bunch of (mostly) white people debating over what is or isnt racist and how indigenous people are supposed to represent themselves.' I know most of the black fellas i know would laugh at how uppity people have gotten over this