List Mgmt. Our list is too nice

[dogwatch]

We are too nice for our own good.

I've been thinking about this for a while and some recent posts have brought my attention back to it.

Here's maddog37 the other day:

I would like to see our players be more physical. We need to crash packs in when flying for marks. We need to shepherd with vigour and spoil marks with venom.

We are young which makes it tricky but I really noticed how polite we are on the field. It’s worth giving away the odd free to send a message imho. We lack mongrel.

And an exchange between Maddog37 and The Original Swooper:

I agree. All of our players just seem so nice though.
-Maddog37

A side effect of the no dickheads policy perhaps ?
-Swooper

And here's a relevant comment from Norm De Guerre (in relation to Sam Mitchell):

I guess it comes down to the eternal question that gets bandied about here when it comes to potential player recruitment or coaching appointees. Do you want the ruthless competitor that will make the club better or do you stand by a etherial and much quoted 'no-dickheads' policy? In my experience he most certainly fits comfortably into both of those categories.

My view is that while it's important to have "good people" on your list, as B.McCartney called them, every side needs some senior players who are prepared to dish out some rough treatment and to "fly the flag" when the going gets rough. You need them to assert a physical presence and to show you won't get pushed around. Without them your side can too easily get brutalised.

Around the time McCartney was sprouting the importance of good people (such as the Bont) we seemed to shift strongly toward this as a key criterion for selection of players at the draft and in trades. Even the bigger players we've recruited seem pretty nice ... maybe too nice - players like Boyd, Schache, Collins, Adams, Young, Naughton, Trengove and English. Only Cordy (a f/s selection gifted to us) stands out as someone with a healthy amount of "mongrel" in him.

This has been exacerbated by two things in 2018 - the injuries/departure of nearly all our tougher players (Libba, Clay Smith, Picken, Redpath, Stringer) and the consequent exposure of quite a few underdeveloped young players to the rigours of senior footy against some fearsome monsters and occasional thugs from other sides.

We need a few players that other clubs' fans come to hate. Players that sometimes tread a narrow line between legal and illegal. Players like Hodge, Southern, Mumford, Libba Sr, Jeremy Cameron, MArtin, Selwood, etc.

Sometimes we look like ballerinas on the footy field. Everyone would be aware of some of our players being called soft in recent weeks. AT the same time there are quite a few of these "nice" footballers who can take the tough stuff (Bont, Trengove, McLean, Macrae, Morris, etc) but very few prepared to dish it out.

It's not about breaking the rules or running amok Barry Hall style, it's about making your opponent wary of your presence. It's another form of on-field leadership that shouldn't be discounted. Crashing packs, crunching tackles, coming to the aid of a roughed-up teammate, a bit of push and shove and a friendly pre-game wrestle. We simply aren't a physically intimidating side at the moment.

I have hopes that this may change over time as English, Richards and Williams become more robust. They are three who look like they could become a little more assertive. Getting Libba back will certainly help.

In the meantime we need to make sure our "no dickheads" policy (if it ever existed) doesn't mean we put a line through those hard men of footy that every side needs.

 

[Mofra]

Get Gowers back into the side ASAP - he's got that little bit of a 'loose unit' vibe about him and doesn't mind a bit of chatter.
Zaine Cordy is about as 'unsociable' a footballer as you can find. Just knew he'd be a footballer early as he clearly has the bastard gene that his brother lacked.
Trengove is genuinely aggressive which is a bonus.

I think a major issue is our really-hard players don't run through the midfield (Trengove's ruck stints aside).
Macrae, Bont and McLean can take the hits but rarely dish them out. With Libba missing that real midfield bastard is lacking, even with Clay Smith in there a couple of minutes per quarter it had an effect when he could get on the paddock. I have hopes that Dunkley will get there but he isn't yet.

 

[BEaston]

I get what you're saying but I don't think there's a connection between niceness/dickheadedness and toughness at all.

Stringer was a dickhead yet is one of the softest players I've seen.

Morris and Picken are two of the nicest players around, yet very tough and physical. McLean also.

I think there is an argument that the list isn't tough/physical enough but I don't think it's connected to the no dickhead policy at all. Not having many games from Clay/Libba/Picken has hurt us badly in this area, especially in the "dishing it out" area.

Youth and physical development is also a factor.

 

[Yojimbo]

We are too nice for our own good.

I don't think so DW, I think we have been exposed badly because of injury and those injuries expose the unskilled
players who you don't really notice if they are your 22nd player, but they stand out when there are multiple in
the same team. The off field issues stem from a systematic overrating of our list and an inability to address
and identify problem players before they got out of control. Why not try Tim English at full forward last week
with a VFL bye he has shown the most marking ability of any of the great white hopes. So many questions so
few answers, I am even calling players with fewer than TEN games experience "Keepers" which does my head
in , but is sad reality at the moment.

 

[Mr. Walker]

It is not helped by recruiting lightly framed sub-180 cm players. A couple of "solid" runners would help.

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

There would be zero fear factor about playing the Bulldogs at the moment. We aren't going to hurt teams on the scoreboard or at the contest

 

[Chicago1]

I miss Ricky Kennedy and Danny Southern.

 

[Del165892]

Our list is too handsome

 

[NBates]

I miss Ricky Kennedy and Danny Southern.

No. 8 - fave player of all time

 

[Bodicifer]

I think the enforcer stuff comes with a bit of age and body development as well and given how young our sides have been this year it's been tough going. Cordy and Gowers attack the contest pretty hard.

 

[dogwatch]

I get what you're saying but I don't think there's a connection between niceness/dickheadedness and toughness at all.

Stringer was a dickhead yet is one of the softest players I've seen.

Morris and Picken are two of the nicest players around, yet very tough and physical. McLean also.

I think there is an argument that the list isn't tough/physical enough but I don't think it's connected to the no dickhead policy at all. Not having many games from Clay/Libba/Picken has hurt us badly in this area, especially in the "dishing it out" area.

Youth and physical development is also a factor.

Yes, I agree... mostly. I think I made most of those points in the OP, especially in relation to our few tough men being injured and the resulting exposure of young underdeveloped players.

I agree you don't have to be a dickhead to be tough or to play unsociable football. However very few, if any, of the really nice types that we have go and dish out some gratuitous, line-in-the-sand toughness. There's the problem.

In particular I'm concerned that a recruiter/list manager might unduly mark down a fierce competitor with a questionable social life, fearing he might fit into the dickhead category. Certainly you have to exercise due diligence but you shouldn't be too cautious either.

There were question marks over Dustin Martin when he was recruited IIRC. Richmond took the punt and now they have one of the most damaging and most feared midfielders in the AFL (and this after the unfortunate chopsticks incident). Plenty were saying we had a dickhead on our hands when Libba was found in a confused state in the wee hours with some pingas in his pocket, yet he's now the player we most desperately want back on the field.

It's a fine line and it might ultimately come down to a gut feeling, but I think sometimes you have to be brave. If there's an element of dickheadedness you may have to back yourself in to manage that. And if you occasionally lose out (Stringer for example) it shouldn't deter you from ever trying again.

 

[Bemoreboyddog]

I get what you're saying but I don't think there's a connection between niceness/dickheadedness and toughness at all.

Stringer was a dickhead yet is one of the softest players I've seen.

Morris and Picken are two of the nicest players around, yet very tough and physical. McLean also.

I think there is an argument that the list isn't tough/physical enough but I don't think it's connected to the no dickhead policy at all. Not having many games from Clay/Libba/Picken has hurt us badly in this area, especially in the "dishing it out" area.

Youth and physical development is also a factor.

Probably disagree about Stringer being soft. Don’t see that at all. Lazy? You betcha.

 

[grassman75]

I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that we don't adapt and use the rules to our advantage. I don't think we have had one "taking the legs" free go in our favour yet this season, but we've given away about 20. Just on the weekend I saw at least two examples where our player could have just fallen over the top of an opponent who had gone to ground for an easy free - yes other teams are milking it for all its worth - our player just stepped around the fallen player. Frustrates the shit out of me

 

[Golden_6]

Probably disagree about Stringer being soft. Don’t see that at all. Lazy? You betcha.

When the ball is in the air he is one of the softest players I’ve seen. Would not crash a pack or run back with the flight of the ball if his life depended on it.

 

[Braybrook Son]

Yeah I have to agree with this. There isn’t much campaigner in our side and hadn’t been for years. When do our players ever get reported? Rarely, in fact, I’m sure if you looked at the stats over the last 20 years, we’ve probably had the least reports of any team

 

[Bazza Bulldog]

EJ (and Terry Wallace for that matter) would spew up with this lot!

 

[footyfan000001]

I posted it a few days ago but nobody in our midfield has any mongrel in them. When we are struggling nobody is willing to put their hand up to make a statement like a Hodge, Selwood, Ziebell etc. Not saying we are soft but not many lippy players with much mongrel in them.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

i honestly believe that the clubs so called no dickheads policy is an urban myth on par with Bigfoot and a Richmond premiership.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

It would great if Marcus Adams had a bit more bastard in him. He looks the part...

 

[Del165892]

It would great if Marcus Adams had a bit more bastard in him. He looks the part...

Did you miss the North Melbourne game when he went apeshit on Ziebell?

 

[dogwatch]

maddog37 posted this link in another thread:

https://trainingground.guru/articles/how-to-think-like-an-all-black-no-dickheads-allowed

It's a fascinating article and provides a good working definition of a dickhead:

Enoka described dickheads as “people putting themselves ahead of the team, people who think they’re entitled to things or expect the rules to be different for them, people operating deceitfully in the dark, or being unnecessarily loud about their work."

and goes on to add:

“A d*ckhead makes everything about them. Often teams put up with it because a player has so much talent. We look for early warning signs and wean the big egos out pretty quickly. Our motto is, if you can’t change the people, change the people.”

This is quite a different thing to having a bit of mongrel once you cross the white line. That's why I didn't want to make this thread specifically about dickheads, even though the alleged "no dickheads" policy could have some bearing on whether we have enough mongrel types on our list.

 

[Next Waiting]

maddog37 posted this link in another thread:

https://trainingground.guru/articles/how-to-think-like-an-all-black-no-dickheads-allowed

It's a fascinating article and provides a good working definition of a dickhead:


and goes on to add:


This is quite a different thing to having a bit of mongrel once you cross the white line. That's why I didn't want to make this thread specifically about dickheads, even though the alleged "no dickheads" policy could have some bearing on whether we have enough mongrel types on our list.

GE is right on the money in my view however

Even though it may not appear so because of selection continuity, AB selection is actually fluid. Even Richie McCaw lived by the law that you're only as good as your last game (with some latitude in his particular case I imagine but his games were always good anyway). If you don't make the AB squad, series by series or season by season, you don't train with the squad but go back to super or provincial competition and there are no selection guarantees. Much like any national team I suppose.

Drafted and contracted AFL players get a minimum 2 year contract (some contracts might be year on year) and train with the club regardless of how badly they're going, attitudinaly or form wise (there probably have been instances of clubs suspending players from club involvement in some behavioural circumstances - maybe Libba - can't remember exactly).

The AB's have the luxury of being able to sack you on the spot with no prospect of return so I suspect that players are more likely to embrace the culture and in turn they are embraced. It is the highest honour to be an AB and there is no greater disgrace than being a sacked one (as distinct from being an omitted one). Very very few have been (wouldn't need all the fingers on one hand). Emigration is about your only option in such a scenario.

In AFL, given you're stuck with the players you draft for 2 years at least (by and large), the emphasis on character and getting it right at draft time makes perfect sense.

 

[SonOfScray]

List composition aside, I think this has merit tactically too. When the fade out is kicking in, or opposition look like they are getting a strangle hold on us, we aren't reacting. I'd like to see some effort at disrupting things. Pick a fight. Light a fire underneath things and turn the contest on its head.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Wasn't sure where to post this but it kinda ties in with the thread and how much impact a little bit of hardness and mongrel can make.

Clay Smith's 3rd quarter in the GF;

16:24 left - knocks Lloyd to the ground as he disposes of the ball. Forward Half of the ground.

16:14 - Pressure on Buddy causing Turnover, handball receive, handball. D50.

14:53 - Absolutely smashes into Mitchell in a pack causing the normally unflappable star to wince in pain. F50.

14:48 - Smothers kick at next stoppage. F50.

14:34 - Wins next clearance. Chaos kick forward. F50.

13:55 - Driving tackle on Hannebery causing stoppage. F50.

12:51 - Involved in pack mark contest. D60.

11:59 - Hammers Lloyd to the ground (again) as he disposes of ball. F75.

11:27 - Tackle on Jack. D50.

10:56 - Desperate lunge and touch on Mitchell as he disposes of ball. D50.

9:49 - Ground Ball Get forcing stoppage. D50.

7:10 - Free kick for high contact. Goal.

1:14 - Crunching tackle on Nick Smith leading to Swans Turnover and shot at goal for Boyd.

The stats show just 2 kicks, 1 handball and 3 tackles for the quarter but the impact is instrumental to the end result. Tom Mitchell had 20 possessions and had kicked 2 goals up until the point where Clay (legally) belted him. He would only touch the ball 6 more times. Our young blokes need to learn how much impact you can have on a match purely by showing some physicality and having an animalistic hunger for the contest.

I have no doubts about our coach nor the talent on our list. My only doubts on this group getting more flags is based around hunger. If they can recapture/learn how to play with that drive and toughness then we will become extremely hard to beat for the next decade.

 

[maddog37]

Great post Wally