Religion Our Universe, Fine-Tuned for Life--Accident or Design?

[NeutralZone]

The routine of atheists is to insist--without thinking it through--that there is no evidence that Jehovah exists, while they have no intelligent explanation for our fine-tuned universe.

Thinking persons equate precision and fine-tuning as proof that an intelligent creator guided the outcome. For instance, a mere stick of crayon is evidence that an intelligent creator (a human) intervened by gathering the correct ingredients and then blending them together in the correct percentages.

At the opposite extreme, accidental or spontaneous events never result in fine-tuning or precision. A computer requires all of its various parts to first be fabricated, in a precise manner, and then the various parts must then be connected together in a precise or fine-tuned manner in order for the computer to function properly. This requires well-trained technicians and designers.

Now, compare the most powerful computer--which pales in comparison to the human brain and to our fine-tuned universe.

If a mere stick of crayon required an intelligent designer (in this case, a human), and if the computer required trained technicians (humans again), how is it that our far superior brain and the universe itself are supposedly the result of chance events?


NeutralZone

 

[Thats Wright]

If the Universe is so huge, then God would have to be such an almighty powerful figure to control it let alone create it.

The pure fluke of many factors on such a massive scale makes more sense than believing an ancient book or that this God figure would give a s**t about whether a grown mammal believed in him or not.

Seems like a wanting micro-manager at best or a wacky attention seeker at worst.

That said, there's worse things than faith.

Like supporting the Roos.

 

[NeutralZone]

If the Universe is so huge, then God would have to be such an almighty powerful figure to control it let alone create it.

The pure fluke of many factors on such a massive scale makes more sense than believing an ancient book or that this God figure would give a s**t about whether a grown mammal believed in him or not.

Seems like a wanting micro-manager at best or a wacky attention seeker at worst.

That said, there's worse things than faith.

Like supporting the Roos.

Thats Wright:

Scripture refers to Jehovah (the Creator of all things) as "Almighty," meaning mightier than all.

Isaiah 13:6
"Wail, for the day of Jehovah is near! It will come as a destruction from the Almighty."


God also refers to himself as the "Almighty" during a conversation with Abram who later came to be called Abraham.

Genesis 17:1 ~ Darby Bible Translation
"And Abram was ninety-nine years old, when Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said to him, I [am] the Almighty God: walk before my face, and be perfect."

NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

If the Universe is so huge, then God would have to be such an almighty powerful figure to control it let alone create it.

The pure fluke of many factors on such a massive scale makes more sense than believing an ancient book or that this God figure would give a s**t about whether a grown mammal believed in him or not.

Seems like a wanting micro-manager at best or a wacky attention seeker at worst.

That said, there's worse things than faith.

Like supporting the Roos.

Thats Wright:

Your comment, bolded in red, speaks to your refusal to acknowledge the fact that precision cannot happen by itself. I gave the example of a mere stick of crayon in my opening post, followed by a computer. Prove your point by presenting even one example of a stick of crayon that appeared by "pure fluke."

Once you've gotten past the problem with the crayon, your next project is to present at least one example of the simplest computer in which all of its parts appeared by "pure fluke," all of the right sized screws to connect the required parts appeared by "pure fluke," the right type of wiring to enable the computer to work appeared by "pure fluke," and then all the right parts, screws, wiring, etc. were left in a room and magically combined themselves into a working computer--by "pure fluke."

The forum would like for you to put your money where your mouth is by explaining away the above examples.


NeutralZone

 

[M Malice]

There are billions of galaxies in the known universe and trillions of planets, we are just plain lucky, this thing called life is merely a 1 in a 1,000,000,000,000 or so chance, to put it in perspective it would take you over 31,000 years to count to one trillion. This 90 second video explains it pretty well IMO.

 

[Snake_Baker]

The routine of atheists is to insist--without thinking it through--that there is no evidence that Jehovah exists, while they have no intelligent explanation for our fine-tuned universe.

Thinking persons equate precision and fine-tuning as proof that an intelligent creator guided the outcome. For instance, a mere stick of crayon is evidence that an intelligent creator (a human) intervened by gathering the correct ingredients and then blending them together in the correct percentages.

At the opposite extreme, accidental or spontaneous events never result in fine-tuning or precision. A computer requires all of its various parts to first be fabricated, in a precise manner, and then the various parts must then be connected together in a precise or fine-tuned manner in order for the computer to function properly. This requires well-trained technicians and designers.

Now, compare the most powerful computer--which pales in comparison to the human brain and to our fine-tuned universe.

If a mere stick of crayon required an intelligent designer (in this case, a human), and if the computer required trained technicians (humans again), how is it that our far superior brain and the universe itself are supposedly the result of chance events?


NeutralZone

Chemistry + time = life

 

[M Malice]

Computers can not self replicate (yet) NZ unlike biological life. Evolution is a simple process to understand even for a layman like me. Would appreciate your thoughts on this thread I started around this time last year.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/explaining-evolution-and-natural-selection.1136456/

I have no belief whatsoever in a biblical/koranic type creator, ie. an omnipresent, judgmental, participatory, to be worshiped, provider of a residence for our "souls" on biological death. I see that sort of belief as merely a byproduct of a less educated, superstitious time in our history. God was used to explain the at the time unexplainable eg. volcano's, earthquakes, lightning, floods, plagues etc. hence there being so many gods back then, the gods must be angry with us.

I have an open mind to the possibility of a higher consciousness (I'll use that for the lack of a better phrase) that we as yet do not understand that is a completely natural part of the natural universe. Who knows what science will enlighten us with in another 100/1,000/10,000 years, we as a species might not even exist then.

Just two questions NZ.

1) Why is this biblical/koranic god so interested and judgmental in regards to what we do with our own and each others genitalia in consenting adult relationships? That one has me completely baffled.

2) Why does god insist on being worshiped? Sounds a tad narcissistic to me.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Just two questions NZ.

1) Why is this biblical/koranic god so interested and judgmental in regards to what we do with our own and each others genitalia in consenting adult relationships? That one has me completely baffled.

2) Why does god insist on being worshiped? Sounds a tad narcissistic to me.

It's pointless attempting to rationalise with a theist like this jason.

The thread descends in to irrational exchanges about dogma, just like every other boring religious discussion on this board..

 

[Snake_Baker]

If a mere stick of crayon required an intelligent designer (in this case, a human), and if the computer required trained technicians (humans again), how is it that our far superior brain and the universe itself are supposedly the result of chance events?


NeutralZone

Human feces is more chemically complex than your crayon example.

Is human feces proof of intelligent design?

 

[M Malice]

It's pointless attempting to rationalise with a theist like this jason.

The thread descends in to irrational exchanges about dogma, just like every other boring religious discussion on this board..

Yep, I'm a sucker for the discussion when I see a new poster on these type of threads (welcome NeutralZone ).

Just had a quick look at the top contributors to various threads eg. The god question 1 and 2, Irreligion, Ask a christian etc. etc. etc. and I have made just short of 500 posts on those threads in the 2 years I have been on Big Footy. Wow, I surprised myself with that number. I still enjoy the banter though.

 

[flashmanvc]

Who made God?

On SGP511 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Snake_Baker]

Yep, I'm a sucker for the discussion when I see a new poster on these type of threads (welcome NeutralZone ).

Just had a quick look at the top contributors to various threads eg. The god question 1 and 2, Irreligion, Ask a christian etc. etc. etc. and I have made just short of 500 posts on those threads in the 2 years I have been on Big Footy. Wow, I surprised myself with that number. I still enjoy the banter though.

I often wonder if the people that take an agnostic/atheistic approach in these long drawn out discussions are actually latent theists that need convincing.

I mean, why else would someone who is supposedly not a theist, put so much time in to these discussions, and what do they expect doctrine to reveal that their 5 senses hasn't revealed?

 

[M Malice]

I often wonder if the people that take an agnostic/atheistic approach in these long drawn out discussions are actually latent theists that need convincing.

I mean, why else would someone who is supposedly not a theist, put so much time in to these discussions, and what do they expect doctrine to reveal that their 5 senses hasn't revealed?

I don't know if you were subtly prodding me (which is great, I like and sometimes need a bit of prodding to get me going) but I have often wondered that about myself.

In my 57 years on this planet I have been a biblical believer (very young and very short time frame) it all sounded like so much BS to me going to compulsory religious education (insert indoctrination) classes at school. I have explored my "spirituality" via various methods and have been a staunch atheist. I would now class myself as a staunch atheist when it comes to institutionalized religious/biblical/koranic belief but open to other possibilities as I stated above in post #7.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I don't know if you were subtly prodding me (which is great, I like and sometimes need a bit of prodding to get me going) but I have often wondered that about myself.

In my 57 years on this planet I have been a biblical believer (very young and very short time frame) it all sounded like so much BS to me going to compulsory religious education (insert indoctrination) classes at school. I have explored my "spirituality" via various methods and have been a staunch atheist. I would now class myself as a staunch atheist when it comes to institutionalized religious/biblical/koranic belief but open to other possibilities as I stated above in post #7.

I'm prodding everyone in general that engages in these to and fro type discussions.

In your case you have had to overcome infant indoctrination, and I applaud your strength in achieving what many cannot overcome.

These "gods" have supposedly endowed me with a set of senses and a neural hardware that points to their complete non existence. If they are designers, then they certainly aren't "intelligent".

All religion is based upon the fear of the annihilation of the ego (i.e. death). A fear that is a human construct. The argument effectively ends there.

 

[M Malice]

All religion is based upon the fear of the annihilation of the ego (i.e. death). A fear that is a human construct. The argument effectively ends there.

Couldn't agree more with the bolded although I would add fear of the unknown/unexplainable as well. Science is continuing to work on that though.

I think the argument will not end in my life time.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Couldn't agree more with the bolded although I would add fear of the unknown/unexplainable as well. Science is continuing to work on that though.

Science instills a wonder of the unknown. A wonder that exponentially dilutes fear as we progress further along our evolutionary plane.

I think the argument will not end in my life time.

No, but the theists are headed for the historical dustbin. Their religions have served their purposes in the initial forming of human societies and their contemporary redundancy grows every day. I have no doubt about this. 200 years in the western world, tops.

 

[RupieDupie]

Well firstly, what about self organisation, self assembly, autocatalysis, evolution? The OP should "play" (= simulate) Conway's Game of Life. Emphasis on "simulate", the argument can be that Conway created the game but I don't think the OP would want to make this argument with the implication that follows.

Secondly The God of The Old Testament does exist, and there is evidence for Him, look at society, it is exactly how I would picture it if created by a jealous and greedy powerful Being.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Thats Wright:

Scripture refers to Jehovah (the Creator of all things) as "Almighty," meaning mightier than all.

Isaiah 13:6
"Wail, for the day of Jehovah is near! It will come as a destruction from the Almighty."


God also refers to himself as the "Almighty" during a conversation with *.

Genesis 17:1 ~ Darby Bible Translation
"And Abram was ninety-nine years old, when Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said to him, I [am] the Almighty God: walk before my face, and be perfect."

NeutralZone

Scripture also says
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord".

So apparently Jehovah designs men to have testicular cancer then tells them to get ****ed.

It's made up nonsense, dude.

 

[RupieDupie]

It is known that every time I start a new world in Minecraft I have to wait 10 hours for Notch to build it

 

[Frank Bunn]

Secondly The God of The Old Testament does exist, and there is evidence for Him, look at society, it is exactly how I would picture it if created by a jealous and greedy powerful Being.

The God of The Old Testament is pretty much like all the other gods that men have invented.

 

[SwampCreature]

The mere existence of a crayon is not evidence of design, that's stupid

The right conditions in an infinite universe could easily create a crayon by accident

Hell, the right conditions could create a red crayon with "OPs a flog" written on the label

Even Pi, a pretty solid tangible concept, is infite to the point there's almost certainly somewhere in its number a part which if you plotted would show a picture of OP
holding a crayon a red crayon with "OPs a flog" written on the label

 

[SwampCreature]

Maybe Pi is god

 

[RupieDupie]

The God of The Old Testament is pretty much like all the other gods that men have invented.

Or put alternatively, any God invented, when subjected to certain group dynamics will always be warped into The God of The Old Testament

Thus "love thy neighbour" becomes "God hates ****"

 

[Thats Wright]

Thats Wright:

Your comment, bolded in red, speaks to your refusal to acknowledge the fact that precision cannot happen by itself. I gave the example of a mere stick of crayon in my opening post, followed by a computer. Prove your point by presenting even one example of a stick of crayon that appeared by "pure fluke."

Once you've gotten past the problem with the crayon, your next project is to present at least one example of the simplest computer in which all of its parts appeared by "pure fluke," all of the right sized screws to connect the required parts appeared by "pure fluke," the right type of wiring to enable the computer to work appeared by "pure fluke," and then all the right parts, screws, wiring, etc. were left in a room and magically combined themselves into a working computer--by "pure fluke."

The forum would like for you to put your money where your mouth is by explaining away the above examples.


NeutralZone

There are other threads that go into it.

It would be rather arrogant and ignorant to jump on here like snake baker and pretend to have the complete truth of monkey see, monkey do.

Unless you're a JW, dabbling in Islam or some other cult, you're probably better off not asking the computer people to share their (snake baker) selfish and warped view.

Although cosmology is evolving and probably often incorrect, there's a lot there to answer some questions and begin to grasp the scale and workings of time/gravity/size/nature of existence without having to seek a father/creator figure.

You probably won't find your answers here and you'll just have to sit through steaming piles of short man syndrome from snake. Forget about it.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Who made God?

Ben Cunnington.