Savage... No wonder the players want you in their corner on negotiations.
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Opinion Q&A with Tim Lawrence - Lachie's manager - chapter 2
- Thread starter Arcassius
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Savage... No wonder the players want you in their corner on negotiations.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #77
Hey guys - really appreciate all the great questions that have been asked. I was chatting with Tim and I think what we'll do is close it off for final questions by lunch tomorrow. Hopefully he'll be open to doing this again in the future, but for now - probably best to set a timeframe for this so we're both not emailing each other frantically for years 
So - on that note - if you have an absolutely cracking, pearler of a question that you think everyone would benefit in knowing - by all means ask ...
For instance - I loved Seppo's line of questions about ethics in player management, when is too young, how early do they approach kids, how involved are the parents in the process. PapaJ asking about buyers remorse, and what happens when people don't get what they want. Or other things like - do they currently manage women players, is there a strong push to sign up the leading women right now - and is it driven by prospective players or managers? The kind of questions that you wouldn't ever find out without asking someone like Tim - those are the good questions.
So - on that note - if you have an absolutely cracking, pearler of a question that you think everyone would benefit in knowing - by all means ask ...
For instance - I loved Seppo's line of questions about ethics in player management, when is too young, how early do they approach kids, how involved are the parents in the process. PapaJ asking about buyers remorse, and what happens when people don't get what they want. Or other things like - do they currently manage women players, is there a strong push to sign up the leading women right now - and is it driven by prospective players or managers? The kind of questions that you wouldn't ever find out without asking someone like Tim - those are the good questions.
Would you like some Aloe Vera for that burn Mad?
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Simply brilliant thread...
a) Do you relate more to Dwayne Johnson's, Rob Corddry's or Troy Garity's character in Ballers? I think we all know that show is extremely accurate at portraying player-agent relationships, and that you probably spend most days rubbing shoulders with billionaires on luxury yachts. But on a more serious note, what differences are there between AFL player management and say US (eg NFL) player management. And do you think the AFL will head to a similar model at some point in the future?
b) Have you ever had a bad experience dealing with a player or a club official (eg arrogance etc) that led to you refusing to represent them/negotiate with them?
a) Do you relate more to Dwayne Johnson's, Rob Corddry's or Troy Garity's character in Ballers? I think we all know that show is extremely accurate at portraying player-agent relationships, and that you probably spend most days rubbing shoulders with billionaires on luxury yachts. But on a more serious note, what differences are there between AFL player management and say US (eg NFL) player management. And do you think the AFL will head to a similar model at some point in the future?
b) Have you ever had a bad experience dealing with a player or a club official (eg arrogance etc) that led to you refusing to represent them/negotiate with them?
Impeccable approach!Everyone needs to know you're a serious enterprise,it ain't Monopoly,people's life decisions are being organised...etc etc.
Like it
!!
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #83
How much does commentary on bigfooty get in the head of players? Do you encourage your stable to keep off the social media to keep them stable?
A lot of articles are being written at the moment where journalists are hypothetically ending the career of players/trading them somewhere with the flick of a pen, without any consideration to the people behind it. Do managers ever fire back, perhaps quietly ringing their offices or blacklisting particular writers from future "collaborative content"? How would someone go about securing a first phone call relationship with a group of players/managers so that her articles would be both factual and first scoop, short of some lady manipulative means?
A lot of articles are being written at the moment where journalists are hypothetically ending the career of players/trading them somewhere with the flick of a pen, without any consideration to the people behind it. Do managers ever fire back, perhaps quietly ringing their offices or blacklisting particular writers from future "collaborative content"? How would someone go about securing a first phone call relationship with a group of players/managers so that her articles would be both factual and first scoop, short of some lady manipulative means?
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #84
Seppo asked - Tim, how do you and Stride find new clients? Do you spend time with the scouts at U18 comps and get the young kids partnering with you before they get drafted? Do the players come to you when the want to nominate themselves for the draft? How often do you get AFL Players leaving their current player managers and come on board with you?
Tim says -
Good questions Seppo. Agents seem to identify and target potential talent differently. The first thing to know is that 99% of players have a manager before their draft day and because of the nature of the industry (far too many accredited agents in my opinion) it is becoming highly competitive, so you need to be making contact with players 18 months out from their draft – yes, we are talking to players and their parents now for the 2017 draft! I’m not saying I agree with it but that’s what we need to do to compete at the moment… but that’s another topic.
Some agents – particularly the smaller groups who traditionally find it harder to sign players – just send out a blanket letter (an introduction letter via their state league club is protocol when making initial contact) to every kid picked in a state squad and some rely on what the football/talent managers at the state league clubs to tell them who the draftable kids are. To me, these are both approaches that show the agent is lazy and not at all experienced with the actual AFL world and the requirements of a draftable player. But that’s just my opinion.
I personally go and watch them. As you would know – due to my very boring instagram posts – I watched about 70 live games of football (inc. AFL games) in the 2015 season. That doesn’t include games broadcast on the tv or internet. As you may remember my background was in talent development and for a year, recruiting so I feel I have a good grasp of what the requirements (playing wise) of what these requirements are so instead of ‘big net will catch some fish’ approach of some, I identify just a few players each year (I generally work with 3-4 each draft) who I approach. Rohdey works the same way as me – target fishing I guess? One of our massive considerations – before we even send an intro letter to a player – is the character of the player. We do some investigating, talking to people who know them, checking their social media etc and if we see any red flags (like a club does) regardless of talent, we won’t touch them. Kicking and catching a football is only half of what will get a player drafted.
We obviously have relationships with recruiters and list managers also, so we do share opinions and views which comes in handy as we get towards the end of the season and head towards the draft (who is interested and ideas on what round they may be selected in etc).
One of the tricks of the smaller groups is to tell kids and their parents they must have a manager before they can get drafted to try and get them to sign (thankfully education around what managers actually do is stamping this out) which is a load of crap – as long as you have played a state league game (at any level) you can nominate yourself online – when nominations open. I make sure my lads are nominated but they don’t actually need me to do this.
Players leaving managers or management groups does happen for various reasons. I personally haven’t had any leave me nor leave someone to join me. As a group however, we seem to get a couple each year that leave and join us and I would be lying if no one has ever left our group but that seems to be a very rare occurrence. We gain far more than we ever lose.
Tim says -
Good questions Seppo. Agents seem to identify and target potential talent differently. The first thing to know is that 99% of players have a manager before their draft day and because of the nature of the industry (far too many accredited agents in my opinion) it is becoming highly competitive, so you need to be making contact with players 18 months out from their draft – yes, we are talking to players and their parents now for the 2017 draft! I’m not saying I agree with it but that’s what we need to do to compete at the moment… but that’s another topic.
Some agents – particularly the smaller groups who traditionally find it harder to sign players – just send out a blanket letter (an introduction letter via their state league club is protocol when making initial contact) to every kid picked in a state squad and some rely on what the football/talent managers at the state league clubs to tell them who the draftable kids are. To me, these are both approaches that show the agent is lazy and not at all experienced with the actual AFL world and the requirements of a draftable player. But that’s just my opinion.
I personally go and watch them. As you would know – due to my very boring instagram posts – I watched about 70 live games of football (inc. AFL games) in the 2015 season. That doesn’t include games broadcast on the tv or internet. As you may remember my background was in talent development and for a year, recruiting so I feel I have a good grasp of what the requirements (playing wise) of what these requirements are so instead of ‘big net will catch some fish’ approach of some, I identify just a few players each year (I generally work with 3-4 each draft) who I approach. Rohdey works the same way as me – target fishing I guess? One of our massive considerations – before we even send an intro letter to a player – is the character of the player. We do some investigating, talking to people who know them, checking their social media etc and if we see any red flags (like a club does) regardless of talent, we won’t touch them. Kicking and catching a football is only half of what will get a player drafted.
We obviously have relationships with recruiters and list managers also, so we do share opinions and views which comes in handy as we get towards the end of the season and head towards the draft (who is interested and ideas on what round they may be selected in etc).
One of the tricks of the smaller groups is to tell kids and their parents they must have a manager before they can get drafted to try and get them to sign (thankfully education around what managers actually do is stamping this out) which is a load of crap – as long as you have played a state league game (at any level) you can nominate yourself online – when nominations open. I make sure my lads are nominated but they don’t actually need me to do this.
Players leaving managers or management groups does happen for various reasons. I personally haven’t had any leave me nor leave someone to join me. As a group however, we seem to get a couple each year that leave and join us and I would be lying if no one has ever left our group but that seems to be a very rare occurrence. We gain far more than we ever lose.
DannyTheDoorman
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- Apr 24, 2015
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Doris's grand daughter is on the prowl and Lachie is in her sights. ha ha
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #86
wayToGo_ asked - a) Do you relate more to Dwayne Johnson's, Rob Corddry's or Troy Garity's character in Ballers? I think we all know that show is extremely accurate at portraying player-agent relationships, and that you probably spend most days rubbing shoulders with billionaires on luxury yachts. But on a more serious note, what differences are there between AFL player management and say US (eg NFL) player management. And do you think the AFL will head to a similar model at some point in the future? b) Have you ever had a bad experience dealing with a player or a club official (eg arrogance etc) that led to you refusing to represent them/negotiate with them?
Tim says -
I am going to be very boring here – whilst I have seen Ballers before, I must admit I can’t really remember what personal/business traits the characters have. What I do know is of I rubbed a magic lamp and a genie popped out and granted me three wishes – there are certain physical elements of Dwayne Johnson I would happily exchange for. Actually he seemed to be pretty good at the agent and welfare stuff didn’t he? Maybe I am a little like him… I will explain why.
Let me use another TV series – Entourage - to try and explain. You would have heard of the two terms ‘Agents’ and ‘Managers’ which, in our sport represent the same thing. However, I think in other professions and possibly in the US they are actually two separate people who do different things… back to Entourage. Ari Gold is the Agent. He looks for deals, sets them up and is the man who finds the money. Eric aka ‘E’ is the Manager – he looks after the day to day management of Vince… making sure his life is in order, giving him personal advice, advising him on matters. This is just my observation and may be wrong on the whole thing.
So I consider myself both – maybe slightly more Manager than Agent. I am very involved in the day to day life of the boys. That doesn’t mean I am constantly in their ear or being involved with everything they do – that would be strange and not a good thing – but we talk about everything that young men go through; not just as young AFL footballers. There isn’t much I don’t know about them and in a couple of cases I wouldn’t be surprised if I know everything about them ha ha. At the same time I obviously deal with their contracts (along with JD in Lachie’s case) and some media/marketing opportunities. However, I do leave a lot of the media/marketing stuff to JD (in Lachie and Luke Partington’s (WCE) case – JD owns ‘Buzz Marketing’ in Perth which is constantly getting bigger all the time) or for my other boys Kathryn Cotsopoulos and Fiona Nash (both Stride) do a lot of that for me. These guys are experts in this kind of stuff and whilst everything is put to me first, they are far better to do this than I am. Why not use our strengths I reckon.
And yes, the lavish lifestyle of bikini models, billionaires and luxury yachts is such a yawn… I long for the nights of printing off receipts and checklist forms for tax times, working how much extra there is after each pay to go into the mortgage or savings account, booking flights, talking to club PDM’s if uni working is dropping off, late night calls if there are things weighing heavy and things need to be talked about for peace of mind and comfort, speaking to anxious mums about injuries or non-selection, helping organising replacement iPhones when they get dropped, taking calls from partners when the boy is being a sh*t at home because of stress…. It just this amazing, fairytale job full of fairy floss and streams of lemonade. But I wouldn’t have it any other way.
As far as bad experiences go, not really. Like I said when it comes to a potential clients we do a lot of homework on them, so we know (before we even to decide to meet) what they are like and whether we will work well with them or not. I have had a couple I have met (often when not enough research was done) which I could tell straight away it wasn’t going to work… and thankfully those boys have chosen other options anyway. I did clash with a National Recruiting Manager of one club a few years ago and that bubbles along still today. Actually, a couple of years after it happened, the club in mentioned was in town and I was catching up with their List Manager (who I have known for a while and get on well with) to talk about some of my boys. As it turned out, one of those boys was having an interview with them just after I had a coffee with the LM. My players rocks up 15 minutes early and because we were just in the reception/café area, he walked over to us… a couple of minutes before the Recruiting Manager has rocked up and by the time my boy got there it was pretty much on for young and old (verbally) by the time he sat down. It wasn’t my most professional moment but thankfully it was all good in the end, a tad awkward for those sitting there and not involved but we laugh about it now (the list manager, player and myself) but things are still testy (although it’s becoming more of a running joke now so it’s all good in my eyes) between the RM and myself – although I should add we have never let it affect our professional relationship and I would happily see one of my boys drafted to that club. I would also happily provide as much open information and help as they requested to make this happen. That would never be an issue. Every email between the RM and myself ends with ‘PS You owe me a beer’… It hasn’t happened yet after 6 years and at the moment I am holding firm on the fact he will put his money on the bar first at some stage. However, if they draft one of the boys, I would happily concede, dig deep and buy him a froth or two and declare the ‘war’ over.
You can’t really let personal emotions get in the way of things – it is someone else’s life/career that will be impacted upon, not mine. Ethics yes, emotions no.
For the record, I have a great relationship with Freo’s Recruiting team; Brad Lloyd, David Walls, Trent Moseby and co. We openly discuss players (not just my lads) over here in SA and I enjoy catching up with them for a chat. I think their success with late picks in the draft also backs up they are very good at what they do. We get on very well.
Tim says -
I am going to be very boring here – whilst I have seen Ballers before, I must admit I can’t really remember what personal/business traits the characters have. What I do know is of I rubbed a magic lamp and a genie popped out and granted me three wishes – there are certain physical elements of Dwayne Johnson I would happily exchange for. Actually he seemed to be pretty good at the agent and welfare stuff didn’t he? Maybe I am a little like him… I will explain why.
Let me use another TV series – Entourage - to try and explain. You would have heard of the two terms ‘Agents’ and ‘Managers’ which, in our sport represent the same thing. However, I think in other professions and possibly in the US they are actually two separate people who do different things… back to Entourage. Ari Gold is the Agent. He looks for deals, sets them up and is the man who finds the money. Eric aka ‘E’ is the Manager – he looks after the day to day management of Vince… making sure his life is in order, giving him personal advice, advising him on matters. This is just my observation and may be wrong on the whole thing.
So I consider myself both – maybe slightly more Manager than Agent. I am very involved in the day to day life of the boys. That doesn’t mean I am constantly in their ear or being involved with everything they do – that would be strange and not a good thing – but we talk about everything that young men go through; not just as young AFL footballers. There isn’t much I don’t know about them and in a couple of cases I wouldn’t be surprised if I know everything about them ha ha. At the same time I obviously deal with their contracts (along with JD in Lachie’s case) and some media/marketing opportunities. However, I do leave a lot of the media/marketing stuff to JD (in Lachie and Luke Partington’s (WCE) case – JD owns ‘Buzz Marketing’ in Perth which is constantly getting bigger all the time) or for my other boys Kathryn Cotsopoulos and Fiona Nash (both Stride) do a lot of that for me. These guys are experts in this kind of stuff and whilst everything is put to me first, they are far better to do this than I am. Why not use our strengths I reckon.
And yes, the lavish lifestyle of bikini models, billionaires and luxury yachts is such a yawn… I long for the nights of printing off receipts and checklist forms for tax times, working how much extra there is after each pay to go into the mortgage or savings account, booking flights, talking to club PDM’s if uni working is dropping off, late night calls if there are things weighing heavy and things need to be talked about for peace of mind and comfort, speaking to anxious mums about injuries or non-selection, helping organising replacement iPhones when they get dropped, taking calls from partners when the boy is being a sh*t at home because of stress…. It just this amazing, fairytale job full of fairy floss and streams of lemonade. But I wouldn’t have it any other way.
As far as bad experiences go, not really. Like I said when it comes to a potential clients we do a lot of homework on them, so we know (before we even to decide to meet) what they are like and whether we will work well with them or not. I have had a couple I have met (often when not enough research was done) which I could tell straight away it wasn’t going to work… and thankfully those boys have chosen other options anyway. I did clash with a National Recruiting Manager of one club a few years ago and that bubbles along still today. Actually, a couple of years after it happened, the club in mentioned was in town and I was catching up with their List Manager (who I have known for a while and get on well with) to talk about some of my boys. As it turned out, one of those boys was having an interview with them just after I had a coffee with the LM. My players rocks up 15 minutes early and because we were just in the reception/café area, he walked over to us… a couple of minutes before the Recruiting Manager has rocked up and by the time my boy got there it was pretty much on for young and old (verbally) by the time he sat down. It wasn’t my most professional moment but thankfully it was all good in the end, a tad awkward for those sitting there and not involved but we laugh about it now (the list manager, player and myself) but things are still testy (although it’s becoming more of a running joke now so it’s all good in my eyes) between the RM and myself – although I should add we have never let it affect our professional relationship and I would happily see one of my boys drafted to that club. I would also happily provide as much open information and help as they requested to make this happen. That would never be an issue. Every email between the RM and myself ends with ‘PS You owe me a beer’… It hasn’t happened yet after 6 years and at the moment I am holding firm on the fact he will put his money on the bar first at some stage. However, if they draft one of the boys, I would happily concede, dig deep and buy him a froth or two and declare the ‘war’ over.
You can’t really let personal emotions get in the way of things – it is someone else’s life/career that will be impacted upon, not mine. Ethics yes, emotions no.
For the record, I have a great relationship with Freo’s Recruiting team; Brad Lloyd, David Walls, Trent Moseby and co. We openly discuss players (not just my lads) over here in SA and I enjoy catching up with them for a chat. I think their success with late picks in the draft also backs up they are very good at what they do. We get on very well.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #87
electricfeel - Is Lachie looking for a girlfriend
DannyTheDoorman - Doris’ granddaughter is on the prowl and Lachie is in her sights. Ha ha
Tim says -
Sorry electricfeel and Doris’ granddaughter but he isn’t looking at the moment… well not that I know of any way!
DannyTheDoorman - Doris’ granddaughter is on the prowl and Lachie is in her sights. Ha ha
Tim says -
Sorry electricfeel and Doris’ granddaughter but he isn’t looking at the moment… well not that I know of any way!
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #88
Randomizor asked - How do you a handle a situation where it is looking unlikely that the club is going to offer a new contract and no other clubs are making offers?
Tim says -
They key to everything is it has to be an honest relationship between manager and player from wo to go. Rohdey makes the statement when he meets a potential new client and their family that ‘we aren’t the leader of your cheer squad’ which is very true. We care about our lads but like any mentor or big brother, not everything is always warm and fuzzy and honest conversations need to be had.
If they don’t look like they are going to get drafted they need to know that and not be lead into thinking they are going to be. If they put something up on social media which is questionable – even slightly – they need to be told and not just laugh it off ‘as a kid just having some fun’ and if it looks like their contract is not going to be renewed and there doesn’t appear to be options elsewhere, that conversation needs to be had as early (appropriately early) as possible so things can be processed, options discussed and a plan put into place such state league footy opportunities, work or uni etc.
It will still hurt but at least there has been some time to adjust and start implementing things for the next phase in life.
Tim says -
They key to everything is it has to be an honest relationship between manager and player from wo to go. Rohdey makes the statement when he meets a potential new client and their family that ‘we aren’t the leader of your cheer squad’ which is very true. We care about our lads but like any mentor or big brother, not everything is always warm and fuzzy and honest conversations need to be had.
If they don’t look like they are going to get drafted they need to know that and not be lead into thinking they are going to be. If they put something up on social media which is questionable – even slightly – they need to be told and not just laugh it off ‘as a kid just having some fun’ and if it looks like their contract is not going to be renewed and there doesn’t appear to be options elsewhere, that conversation needs to be had as early (appropriately early) as possible so things can be processed, options discussed and a plan put into place such state league footy opportunities, work or uni etc.
It will still hurt but at least there has been some time to adjust and start implementing things for the next phase in life.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #89
PapaJ asked - 1.Sounds like you build quite a rapport with the players you manage (including Lachie). Do you get attached to them and how do you handle disappointments when clubs are not willing to meet a players expectations, including when the inevitable end comes for example? Have there been moments where you get down on your knees and start begging on your players' behalf (joke BTW, but with element of truth)? Or have you just grown accustomed to the harshness of it all and just wear it when a club wont seem to budge.
2. Has a club (not a player), ever asked you or other people at Stride, to take on a player ... or would that be crossing a boundary?
3. One last one, with the McCarthy fiasco last year (and still hanging over this year of course), it brings to mind the issue of 'buyers regret'. How do you handle (if it has happened) where players have come to you after they've locked in a contract feeling they need a significant change to occur (not only or necessarily wanting out and leaving the club, but something big, like length of contract, or significant conditional changes etc.)?
Tim says -
1. I probably have just touched on that. I think because of my background I am accustomed to the industry. I say to young draftees (and family) that ‘the higher you go, the colder it gets’ and the reality is, far more are finished off without being ready for it. Again, you need to be real about it.
I haven’t got on my knees but I have told a couple of Football Managers what I thought of them after they had a longer stay at the club early (both were rookies – so on 1 year contracts) and then they haven’t delivered for no valid reason. Having said that, I question where those clubs are heading when they think rookie selections are going to have impact on the senior list (when they aren’t even started on the senior list) in one season. Stupidity.
2. Yes I have been asked by clubs but only for player’s who do not have a manager – not try and poach them from another manager. I have had some conversations however with clubs who have players who are poorly managed. In fact, many clubs are now developing internal policies where they don’t trade for players who have ‘problem’ managers. This is going to sound like I am really rating our company here but I do know of clubs who are far more comfortable knowing that Stride is looking after them when considering drafting some players (that why we get asked). I am sure there are others they feel comfortable working with also of course.
3. What I am about to say here has nothing to do with the McCarthy situation because there would be elements none of us are privy too and I wouldn’t want agents making comments about my players when things have been challenging. That’s just not fair so I ask you to not link what I am saying to the Cam McCarthy situation.
When there is a chance of a club extension, I have a good chat with the player involved and we talk about everything in life - much like what we did with Lachie, however, not to the same extent or time line obviously. Most of the time, with constant communication between the manager and player, you know how things are going both on and off field. The manager should always have a ‘what if’ and Plan B in the back of mind. So, if you know everything about your client on both a personal and professional level that helps with making these kind of decisions.
Quite often, it is a 10 minute conversation because the player wants to stay, loves where they are, loves the club, is getting a game or developing well to start getting regular games and away the negotiation starts.
Of course things can happen unexpectedly that we can’t see. Family sickness, relationship issues are a couple of examples and these things can happen despite all the best communication and planning. Again, a good manager can read the situation even before a conversation is had with his client but at the same time while we are dealing with human beings – especially younger ones who are still finding their way in the world – and things can happen.
2. Has a club (not a player), ever asked you or other people at Stride, to take on a player ... or would that be crossing a boundary?
3. One last one, with the McCarthy fiasco last year (and still hanging over this year of course), it brings to mind the issue of 'buyers regret'. How do you handle (if it has happened) where players have come to you after they've locked in a contract feeling they need a significant change to occur (not only or necessarily wanting out and leaving the club, but something big, like length of contract, or significant conditional changes etc.)?
Tim says -
1. I probably have just touched on that. I think because of my background I am accustomed to the industry. I say to young draftees (and family) that ‘the higher you go, the colder it gets’ and the reality is, far more are finished off without being ready for it. Again, you need to be real about it.
I haven’t got on my knees but I have told a couple of Football Managers what I thought of them after they had a longer stay at the club early (both were rookies – so on 1 year contracts) and then they haven’t delivered for no valid reason. Having said that, I question where those clubs are heading when they think rookie selections are going to have impact on the senior list (when they aren’t even started on the senior list) in one season. Stupidity.
2. Yes I have been asked by clubs but only for player’s who do not have a manager – not try and poach them from another manager. I have had some conversations however with clubs who have players who are poorly managed. In fact, many clubs are now developing internal policies where they don’t trade for players who have ‘problem’ managers. This is going to sound like I am really rating our company here but I do know of clubs who are far more comfortable knowing that Stride is looking after them when considering drafting some players (that why we get asked). I am sure there are others they feel comfortable working with also of course.
3. What I am about to say here has nothing to do with the McCarthy situation because there would be elements none of us are privy too and I wouldn’t want agents making comments about my players when things have been challenging. That’s just not fair so I ask you to not link what I am saying to the Cam McCarthy situation.
When there is a chance of a club extension, I have a good chat with the player involved and we talk about everything in life - much like what we did with Lachie, however, not to the same extent or time line obviously. Most of the time, with constant communication between the manager and player, you know how things are going both on and off field. The manager should always have a ‘what if’ and Plan B in the back of mind. So, if you know everything about your client on both a personal and professional level that helps with making these kind of decisions.
Quite often, it is a 10 minute conversation because the player wants to stay, loves where they are, loves the club, is getting a game or developing well to start getting regular games and away the negotiation starts.
Of course things can happen unexpectedly that we can’t see. Family sickness, relationship issues are a couple of examples and these things can happen despite all the best communication and planning. Again, a good manager can read the situation even before a conversation is had with his client but at the same time while we are dealing with human beings – especially younger ones who are still finding their way in the world – and things can happen.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #91
Tayl0r asked - 1. How much does commentary on bigfooty get in the head of players? 2. Do you encourage your stable to keep off the social media to keep them stable? 3. A lot of articles are being written at the moment where journalists are hypothetically ending the career of players/trading them somewhere with the flick of a pen, without any consideration to the people behind it. Do managers ever fire back, perhaps quietly ringing their offices or blacklisting particular writers from future "collaborative content"? 4. How would someone go about securing a first phone call relationship with a group of players/managers so that her articles would be both factual and first scoop, short of some lady manipulative means?
Tim says -
Interesting questions Tayl0r – I am guessing from #4 this question is related to your own aspirations? If this is the case and you are prepared to use ‘lady manipulative means’ (and god only knows that what I think that means may be VERY different to what it really means) remind me to be very careful with you… Ha ha.
1. For fear of alienating everyone here – which is the last thing I want to do – I can tell you that commentary on BF does not get into the head of players at all….. because they don’t read it. If they did (mine don’t at all – that includes family - from very early on in the peace i.e before draft day) I would strongly advise them not too. You guys on the Freo page seem to be really good. People voice an opinion which is fine, that’s what it’s about but I have noticed you guys will readily push out those who have extreme, unfair or abusive views. I really encourage you to do that so contributors of all ages, experiences and backgrounds can be involved and talk about football.
I have my quiet moments where I have popped on to the Freo BF site (because of the stuff we have done together – I don’t go on blog sites as a rule) and read about the conversations around Lachie, his form and the contract negotiations. 99% of what was written was totally crap and based on nothing. See the trouble is with social media of all forms, people seem to think that if they make a statement in a forum it immediately becomes factual and something other people should take as gospel – that’s not aimed at you all here, that’s just what it is. Social media has taken narcissism to a new level and the next generation just see it as ‘life’. But I have digressed, when looking at the contract discussions on here, there really was only one contributor who had some idea what was going on – Arcassius – because he would ask me and because I have got to know him and trust him, I gave him some insight as to what was going on. I gave you a statement about what was going to happen early in the piece which some took on board, others didn’t (which I should add is fine…. Could you really trust at the time what I was saying…. Hindsight now probably helps to answer that) which is all fine because that’s what blog/chat sights are all about. The thing is a lot of things that are posted are emotional, fact less and unfounded points of opinion so why , quite honestly, would a player who actually does know ‘what’s happening’ read it with the chance it could frustrate or upset them?
This seems really harsh I know but it’s the honest truth. Your BF page is one of the best (with my limited investigations) however and I encourage you all to keep talking about the club and game you all love but that’s where it stays – for the supporters and fans only. If you’re a journalist who thinks you will find truths on Big Footy…. Well you will only be as good and as factual as that journo over there you all keep referring too!
I should add I love the fact all of you here (along with some other club posters) actually are keen to learn about things of fact – that’s why I enjoy doing these Q&A’s with Arc.
2. Yeah I do. However, let’s not kid ourselves social media is what everyone does now and many clubs encourage their players to engage with fans through it. There is also a marketing element – business’ look at the players social media following (the greater the followers the better) before asking them to help promote a product.
So – and you have heard this Spinal Tap analogy before – as much as I want the player to be the luke warm water that flows between the fire and ice, we can’t protect them fully from the online abuse and trolls. I have seen what some people have said to Lachie before…. I tell you what he has a far better temperament than me and whilst a couple of times he has bitten back, he knows it’s a fight he can’t win and it will just upset him more so he doesn’t feed the beast and just ignore it. He is a better man than me with these things. His skin has become thicker but for the new kids to the game – it’s confronting and upsetting at times.
3. I won’t mention names but yes, of course managers fire back behind closed doors and blacklist some journo’s. I haven’t black listed any but I have a couple now I wouldn’t rush to talk too and it wouldn’t take much for me to ignore a phone call. At the same time (and this is a good segway into #4) I have found some really good ones who have done the right thing, told the truth, refrained from keeping things ‘off the record’ and as a result, they will get a bit more than others down the track.
4. First calls take some time. I return everyone’s calls but the bigger managers, with more players, more knowledge of journalists and less time on their hands may be harder to access. I have found that journalists who take an interest in a player or story and want to write a positive piece – no muck raking – often can build some trust and gain further access to players and through a club (keep in mind a lot of media appearances/interview need to be ticked off by the club also). So ‘good stories’ are a good start. Think Emma Quayle here – she writes insightful, informative stories about the players themselves and is respected industry wide.
When someone says to you ‘this is off the record’ it must stay out of the story. Often those OTR admissions give further insight or reasoning into something that van be ‘On the record’. You blow that you may as well delete that contact from your phone list. At times, you may have to use some facts from one source against facts from another source (often conflicting) and whilst it could be a headline story, it could also be wrong and cost you a lot of trust (if not all) and maybe the story was right but you lose that connection anyway. Sometimes you hear things and it’s just a far better option to not say anything or report it because in the long run a lot of unnecessary damage could be cause to someone.
My advice is to start soft, go to actual sources, write some nice stories, follow what the source asks you to do (off the record etc) and that will build trust and in time – it may take a few discussions and stories – you will gain trust and the odd scoop will start coming your way within time.
The AFL industry is very small and people talk. You can climb quickly through hard work but you can fall even quicker through a bad judgement…. And everyone will know about it. Nothing is really that secret in our industry.
Tim says -
Interesting questions Tayl0r – I am guessing from #4 this question is related to your own aspirations? If this is the case and you are prepared to use ‘lady manipulative means’ (and god only knows that what I think that means may be VERY different to what it really means) remind me to be very careful with you… Ha ha.
1. For fear of alienating everyone here – which is the last thing I want to do – I can tell you that commentary on BF does not get into the head of players at all….. because they don’t read it. If they did (mine don’t at all – that includes family - from very early on in the peace i.e before draft day) I would strongly advise them not too. You guys on the Freo page seem to be really good. People voice an opinion which is fine, that’s what it’s about but I have noticed you guys will readily push out those who have extreme, unfair or abusive views. I really encourage you to do that so contributors of all ages, experiences and backgrounds can be involved and talk about football.
I have my quiet moments where I have popped on to the Freo BF site (because of the stuff we have done together – I don’t go on blog sites as a rule) and read about the conversations around Lachie, his form and the contract negotiations. 99% of what was written was totally crap and based on nothing. See the trouble is with social media of all forms, people seem to think that if they make a statement in a forum it immediately becomes factual and something other people should take as gospel – that’s not aimed at you all here, that’s just what it is. Social media has taken narcissism to a new level and the next generation just see it as ‘life’. But I have digressed, when looking at the contract discussions on here, there really was only one contributor who had some idea what was going on – Arcassius – because he would ask me and because I have got to know him and trust him, I gave him some insight as to what was going on. I gave you a statement about what was going to happen early in the piece which some took on board, others didn’t (which I should add is fine…. Could you really trust at the time what I was saying…. Hindsight now probably helps to answer that) which is all fine because that’s what blog/chat sights are all about. The thing is a lot of things that are posted are emotional, fact less and unfounded points of opinion so why , quite honestly, would a player who actually does know ‘what’s happening’ read it with the chance it could frustrate or upset them?
This seems really harsh I know but it’s the honest truth. Your BF page is one of the best (with my limited investigations) however and I encourage you all to keep talking about the club and game you all love but that’s where it stays – for the supporters and fans only. If you’re a journalist who thinks you will find truths on Big Footy…. Well you will only be as good and as factual as that journo over there you all keep referring too!
I should add I love the fact all of you here (along with some other club posters) actually are keen to learn about things of fact – that’s why I enjoy doing these Q&A’s with Arc.
2. Yeah I do. However, let’s not kid ourselves social media is what everyone does now and many clubs encourage their players to engage with fans through it. There is also a marketing element – business’ look at the players social media following (the greater the followers the better) before asking them to help promote a product.
So – and you have heard this Spinal Tap analogy before – as much as I want the player to be the luke warm water that flows between the fire and ice, we can’t protect them fully from the online abuse and trolls. I have seen what some people have said to Lachie before…. I tell you what he has a far better temperament than me and whilst a couple of times he has bitten back, he knows it’s a fight he can’t win and it will just upset him more so he doesn’t feed the beast and just ignore it. He is a better man than me with these things. His skin has become thicker but for the new kids to the game – it’s confronting and upsetting at times.
3. I won’t mention names but yes, of course managers fire back behind closed doors and blacklist some journo’s. I haven’t black listed any but I have a couple now I wouldn’t rush to talk too and it wouldn’t take much for me to ignore a phone call. At the same time (and this is a good segway into #4) I have found some really good ones who have done the right thing, told the truth, refrained from keeping things ‘off the record’ and as a result, they will get a bit more than others down the track.
4. First calls take some time. I return everyone’s calls but the bigger managers, with more players, more knowledge of journalists and less time on their hands may be harder to access. I have found that journalists who take an interest in a player or story and want to write a positive piece – no muck raking – often can build some trust and gain further access to players and through a club (keep in mind a lot of media appearances/interview need to be ticked off by the club also). So ‘good stories’ are a good start. Think Emma Quayle here – she writes insightful, informative stories about the players themselves and is respected industry wide.
When someone says to you ‘this is off the record’ it must stay out of the story. Often those OTR admissions give further insight or reasoning into something that van be ‘On the record’. You blow that you may as well delete that contact from your phone list. At times, you may have to use some facts from one source against facts from another source (often conflicting) and whilst it could be a headline story, it could also be wrong and cost you a lot of trust (if not all) and maybe the story was right but you lose that connection anyway. Sometimes you hear things and it’s just a far better option to not say anything or report it because in the long run a lot of unnecessary damage could be cause to someone.
My advice is to start soft, go to actual sources, write some nice stories, follow what the source asks you to do (off the record etc) and that will build trust and in time – it may take a few discussions and stories – you will gain trust and the odd scoop will start coming your way within time.
The AFL industry is very small and people talk. You can climb quickly through hard work but you can fall even quicker through a bad judgement…. And everyone will know about it. Nothing is really that secret in our industry.
Well...maybe not
Hi Tim and Arc,
Really appreciate you doing this. Gained a lot of insights into the player's world and got a better appreciation of what goes behind the scene.
Hope I can still squeeze in some questions.
Is the timeline for Lachie's contract longer than usual? I understand and agree than all the due diligence is important and necessary. But trades within the trade period happen within the 2-3 weeks? Or is all the due diligence typically completed during the season and players only need to sign on the dotted line during the trade period?
Also, do clubs share their long term recruiting plans with the players / managers? And do the playing group's opinion affect the team's recruitment strategy (i.e. "Sorry, we are not taking you player as most of the senior players vetoed it..."
Cheers!
Really appreciate you doing this. Gained a lot of insights into the player's world and got a better appreciation of what goes behind the scene.
Hope I can still squeeze in some questions.
Is the timeline for Lachie's contract longer than usual? I understand and agree than all the due diligence is important and necessary. But trades within the trade period happen within the 2-3 weeks? Or is all the due diligence typically completed during the season and players only need to sign on the dotted line during the trade period?
Also, do clubs share their long term recruiting plans with the players / managers? And do the playing group's opinion affect the team's recruitment strategy (i.e. "Sorry, we are not taking you player as most of the senior players vetoed it..."
Cheers!
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Thanks to Tim and Arc for all this.
The answer to Q.2 is interesting. It seems that clubs are more and more starting to see players as a bit of a player/manager/family/lifestyle etc. combo.
I understand that Tim might not be taking any more questions, that's fine - but if he is. One thing that I find interesting is that nearly every draft period, there will be a good number of young players that get picked up in the earlier rounds (say 1-2), who by all reports were likely to get drafted somewhere along the line, yet they are so relieved and thankful. Obviously it's something I've never gone through, but do you managers basically remind them that, despite the 'noise', there is every chance the WILL NOT be picked up, because sometimes these players, from keen footy watchers on the outside, seem like near certainties in our minds to go at some point.
Not talking about players like Lachie who really were unknowns, great potential, should be on a list, but always a chance to go lower down or not at all, and obviously not those who have basically been told they're going to go top 5 or so, but those good few who are highly likely but sit in the middle. It seems like some of them go in expecting the worst.
Understand if that question needs to go in the bank for next time (if there is one).
And once again thanks to Tim, thank you so much for giving us a dose of reality. These sorts of places need a lot more of that.
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Freo Hammer 21
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Hey Tim, first of all, just want to say thanks for giving us an insight into the business side of the game we love, it's good to see. My question is how does one get involved with the afl industry? I'm only young, and I'm considering my career options at the moment, and I want to do something that involves sport and business.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #96
yoong asked - Is the timeline for Lachie's contract longer than usual? I understand and agree than all the due diligence is important and necessary. But trades within the trade period happen within the 2-3 weeks? Or is all the due diligence typically completed during the season and players only need to sign on the dotted line during the trade period?
Also, do clubs share their long term recruiting plans with the players / managers? And do the playing group's opinion affect the team's recruitment strategy (i.e. "Sorry, we are not taking you player as most of the senior players vetoed it..."
Tim says -
Yeah for sure our time line was longer than probably most. Why? Because it involved 8-10 games being played this year to get a good grasp of the list going forward (and games of football can’t be rushed to suit an individual’s timeline obviously) and quite simply, we had time. His contract didn’t expire until October 31st this year so why rush an important decision? And people think Jesse Hogan and Nat Fyfe are leaving because they haven’t started contract negotiations and they aren’t out of contract until 31st October NEXT year!
The jungle drums start beating reasonably early and I honestly don’t think that there would be too many players or managers who don’t realise they may be put up for trade (and they are often told that before the trade period) – we want you but if something decent comes up prepare yourself kind of thing.
It is information that probably isn’t just thrown out to anyone but having said that, I am sure it is available to the players of they ask. Managers can see it although if you represented a first year rookie and wanted a detailed run down on a 4 year recruiting and trading plan before agreeing to a 2nd year on the rookie list you would probably get laughed at. Player involvement and the resultant buy in is really important and the way clubs are set up now, clubs just won’t bring in a ‘problem’ player that may unsettle the group. A playing group with very strong values and leadership may bring in the odd player with a dubious past (sound familiar?) knowing that a) the culture of the club may help that player or b) if the player doesn’t conform, the playing group won’t be affected by the individual, will push them aside and keep moving forward (does that also sound familiar?).
Also, do clubs share their long term recruiting plans with the players / managers? And do the playing group's opinion affect the team's recruitment strategy (i.e. "Sorry, we are not taking you player as most of the senior players vetoed it..."
Tim says -
Yeah for sure our time line was longer than probably most. Why? Because it involved 8-10 games being played this year to get a good grasp of the list going forward (and games of football can’t be rushed to suit an individual’s timeline obviously) and quite simply, we had time. His contract didn’t expire until October 31st this year so why rush an important decision? And people think Jesse Hogan and Nat Fyfe are leaving because they haven’t started contract negotiations and they aren’t out of contract until 31st October NEXT year!
The jungle drums start beating reasonably early and I honestly don’t think that there would be too many players or managers who don’t realise they may be put up for trade (and they are often told that before the trade period) – we want you but if something decent comes up prepare yourself kind of thing.
It is information that probably isn’t just thrown out to anyone but having said that, I am sure it is available to the players of they ask. Managers can see it although if you represented a first year rookie and wanted a detailed run down on a 4 year recruiting and trading plan before agreeing to a 2nd year on the rookie list you would probably get laughed at. Player involvement and the resultant buy in is really important and the way clubs are set up now, clubs just won’t bring in a ‘problem’ player that may unsettle the group. A playing group with very strong values and leadership may bring in the odd player with a dubious past (sound familiar?) knowing that a) the culture of the club may help that player or b) if the player doesn’t conform, the playing group won’t be affected by the individual, will push them aside and keep moving forward (does that also sound familiar?).
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #97
PapaJ asked - I understand that Tim might not be taking any more questions, that's fine - but if he is. One thing that I find interesting is that nearly every draft period, there will be a good number of young players that get picked up in the earlier rounds (say 1-2), who by all reports were likely to get drafted somewhere along the line, yet they are so relieved and thankful. Obviously it's something I've never gone through, but do you managers basically remind them that, despite the 'noise', there is every chance the WILL NOT be picked up, because sometimes these players, from keen footy watchers on the outside, seem like near certainties in our minds to go at some point.
Tim says -
Unfortunately it can happen PapaJ. That’s why -as mentioned earlier – honesty needs to be present at all times during the draft process. That’s where good managers who have a knowledge of the draft system because they have been involved at some level (that rules out 75% of current agents) and they also have goof relationships and connection with the recruiting teams to get REAL insight and thoughts on the player and their chances. I always play things conservatively with my boys and their families – it’s better to over achieve than underachieve in this part of the game as it can be brutal and emotional roller coaster (that goes for the best part of 8 months) regardless of what happens on draft night.
It can be pretty horrific to be honest. Those two hours watching the draft is pure hell trust me!!
Tim says -
Unfortunately it can happen PapaJ. That’s why -as mentioned earlier – honesty needs to be present at all times during the draft process. That’s where good managers who have a knowledge of the draft system because they have been involved at some level (that rules out 75% of current agents) and they also have goof relationships and connection with the recruiting teams to get REAL insight and thoughts on the player and their chances. I always play things conservatively with my boys and their families – it’s better to over achieve than underachieve in this part of the game as it can be brutal and emotional roller coaster (that goes for the best part of 8 months) regardless of what happens on draft night.
It can be pretty horrific to be honest. Those two hours watching the draft is pure hell trust me!!
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #98
Freo Hammer 21 asked - Hey Tim, first of all, just want to say thanks for giving us an insight into the business side of the game we love, it's good to see. My question is how does one get involved with the afl industry? I'm only young, and I'm considering my career options at the moment, and I want to do something that involves sport and business.
Tim says -
Hi Freo Hammer 21! I often meet with aspiring young agents to talk about this (in fact I am meeting one tomorrow morning!) Why don’t you PM Arcassius and he will pass on my contact details. Then you can call/text/email and I can give you a call and give you some ideas, insight and advice to help with your decision making for your career pathway going forward.
Just don’t watch ‘Jerry McGuire’ and ‘Ballers’ and think it’s like that. It’s all a load of shite
editor's note - so i've been sitting here copying and pasting Tim's responses into here, and tend to read what he's written during the posting. Had a - 'huh? say what?' moment there haha. All good
Tim says -
Hi Freo Hammer 21! I often meet with aspiring young agents to talk about this (in fact I am meeting one tomorrow morning!) Why don’t you PM Arcassius and he will pass on my contact details. Then you can call/text/email and I can give you a call and give you some ideas, insight and advice to help with your decision making for your career pathway going forward.
Just don’t watch ‘Jerry McGuire’ and ‘Ballers’ and think it’s like that. It’s all a load of shite
editor's note - so i've been sitting here copying and pasting Tim's responses into here, and tend to read what he's written during the posting. Had a - 'huh? say what?' moment there haha. All good
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #99
Alright, so I reckon we're done for this season of 'Ask Tim Anything (except One Direction references)'
Thanks everyone for your contribution and asking some seriously great questions - and hopefully Tim will be up for doing this again after his fingers have recovered from RSI. From me, as always - a massive thank you to him for taking the time to engage with everyone here, and contribute in the spirit of broadening our knowledge and love of this sport and how some of it works 'behind the scenes'. He doesn't have to do this - he chooses to for the love, and for that i'm forever thankful
Thanks everyone for your contribution and asking some seriously great questions - and hopefully Tim will be up for doing this again after his fingers have recovered from RSI. From me, as always - a massive thank you to him for taking the time to engage with everyone here, and contribute in the spirit of broadening our knowledge and love of this sport and how some of it works 'behind the scenes'. He doesn't have to do this - he chooses to for the love, and for that i'm forever thankful
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