Oppo Camp Regular Non Eagles Discussion

[DanWCE]

Richmond dynasty confirmed

It definitely helps the teams who've already adjusted to, and have been getting away with those two handed scoop handballs already.

At least the handball won't die completely. Tigers are a great example of using the forward handball effectively. I can't think of a better way to move the ball by hand in an attacking direction, certainly you couldn't throw the ball forwards with as much power or accuracy as you could handball it.

But the cheap sideways and defensive handballs, and little flicks off the bottom of the pack, plus over the head passes would all become throws. The ability to build up a chain of hot potato throws would definitely open things up

 

[Bender_]

I'm aware they did it, and as much as it annoyed me I was happy enough to pass it off as a Covid anomaly, even though we've seen the Tigers often fall on the favourable side of such fixture quirks.

That they're now having journos write little articles to acclimatize us to this new reality is quite concerning. There will be no accountability. I'll be switching to WAFL.

I would've shifted to WAFL this year were it not for covid, will be ATTENDING games at Lathlain next year just to watch anyone play and kepp in touch with family.

I've expressed my feelings about the AFL's shortcoming comings before, I'm unsure if it's me just getting older or becoming less accepting of bullshit in general. Maybe both.

 

[Ochre]

It's not long ago that teams would've been following these zoning rules incidentally. I think the idea it'll destroy the fabric of the game is farcical.

 

[Dylan82]

There's enough smoke out there now about the AFL running both compressed fixtures and revealing blocks of the fixture weeks ahead of schedule in 2021 as opposed to a full seasons fixture revealed ahead of time that the chucking the ball thing may not even affect me.

If they're allowed to manipulate the outcomes by revealing fixtures after results have played out, including who has a compressed fixture when, I'm out. I do not trust that the AFL would use this power properly, and I see absolutely no reason for it that is of benefit to the fans.

Agree wholeheartedly with this, currently fixturing lacks any kind of transparency and is far too open to manipulation.

Ideally, if the AFL cared for any kind of fixture integrity (haha) they would publicise a governing set of principles around fixturing, covering:

• number of times opponents play each other
• number of times teams are required to travel
• minimum disparities in rest breaks between opponents

As currently each of these factors are resulting in significant inequities that are impacting the competition's outcome each year.


I would also go further and have the full fixture for the next season published prior to any free agency or trade period to prevent any potential fixture bias from occurring against a team as a result of player recruitment etc.


One only has to look at what happened last year with the original pre-COVID 2020 fixture after West Coast gained Kelly - despite finishing 6th, the Eagles ended up with statistically the most punishing fixture in over 20 years.

I expect something similar will end up happening in 2021 for Geelong now that they have added J.Cameron. Conversely I also expect Collingwood to end up with one of the softest fixtures of all time after their nightmare of a trade period, and HQ will be doing everything to ensure memberships don't fall off a cliff.

Cynical as it may seem, but I fully expect the 2021 fixture to be a complete shambles with a greater amount of conspicuous manipulation than ever before. The Grand Final will be "returning to the MCG" and those from outside of Melbourne won't be welcome - and the fixture will demonstrate that.

I would not at all be surprised either if for many (particularly those based in traditional football states outside of Victoria), it will come as the final straw in their support of what is increasingly becoming an openly unequal competition.

 

[Dylan82]

It definitely helps the teams who've already adjusted to, and have been getting away with those two handed scoop handballs already.

At least the handball won't die completely. Tigers are a great example of using the forward handball effectively. I can't think of a better way to move the ball by hand in an attacking direction, certainly you couldn't throw the ball forwards with as much power or accuracy as you could handball it.

But the cheap sideways and defensive handballs, and little flicks off the bottom of the pack, plus over the head passes would all become throws. The ability to build up a chain of hot potato throws would definitely open things up

This is exactly what I have observed from the coaching scrimmages I have conducted - in open play handballs still remain dominant, it is only in close where players are effectively being tackled before they take possession that scoops, flicks and offloads tend to occur.

Due to the way stoppages get opened up, you actually end up with more handball chains occurring (as it is simply more effective to use a handball to move the ball forward when running at pace over any kind of flick or throw).

 

[flamingEMBERS]

It's not long ago that teams would've been following these zoning rules incidentally. I think the idea it'll destroy the fabric of the game is farcical.

How long do they give players to get back into their zone for a throw in? Who’s penalised if it’s, both clubs? Is it going to be a slap on the wrist like the 666 rule? It’s stupid and will slow down the game. The extra 15 seconds after a goal was so noticeable this year

 

[Coasters7]

Yeah rolling fixtures would spell the end for me too. You’d have your head up your arse if you didn’t think they’d be manipulating that all year for maximum “entertainment”.

Not necessarily favouring any particular team (although they’d make sure their money makers are somewhere near the top), but morseo making sure there’s enough drama and the comp is even enough to keep bums on seats. Don’t get me wrong.. I love a tight comp, but not when’s it’s fabricated. Would much rather watch a team go 22-0 off the back of genuine fairness than intentionally peg them back in the name of “evenness”. That’s not what sport is about. Money has f*cked sport. Nothing is ever for the enjoyment of the game.

 

[Chris_6678]

Yeah rolling fixtures would spell the end for me too. You’d have your head up your arse if you didn’t think they’d be manipulating that all year for maximum “entertainment”.

Not necessarily favouring any particular team (although they’d make sure their money makers are somewhere near the top), but morseo making sure there’s enough drama and the comp is even enough to keep bums on seats. Don’t get me wrong.. I love a tight comp, but not when’s it’s fabricated. Would much rather watch a team go 22-0 off the back of genuine fairness than intentionally peg them back in the name of “evenness”. That’s not what sport is about. Money has f*cked sport. Nothing is ever for the enjoyment of the game.

If they go down they route again you just know it will be a common thing heading forward.

I seriously HATE Gill running the show , he has no long term vision and keeps tinkering with the game.

Im pretty sure leading into 2020 they decided no rule changes to see how the current rules were going to play out. BUT with 2020 being a different year with short 1/4's and not exactly producing the best football why is it they are changing the rules based on a year that is different to any other?

When is Gills reign over? Surely they need someone in with some long term vision.

 

[Seadog]

If they go down they route again you just know it will be a common thing heading forward.

I seriously HATE Gill running the show , he has no long term vision and keeps tinkering with the game.

Im pretty sure leading into 2020 they decided no rule changes to see how the current rules were going to play out. BUT with 2020 being a different year with short 1/4's and not exactly producing the best football why is it they are changing the rules based on a year that is different to any other?

When is Gills reign over? Surely they need someone in with some long term vision.

Gil is a smarmy prick who is more interested in hitting his KPI's to pick up his bonuses and engineering VFL feelgood stories than doing what's best for the game.
The sooner him and his brother **** off the better.

 

[shooshka]

Agreed there are really only two ways forward as a means of opening play, and they are both nuclear options:

1. Reduce numbers - cut down the numbers on field per team from 18 to 15 and play will open up enormously - however it may also just precipitate another wave of recruiting runners over footballers and we end up in a similar position again in 10 years' time.
2. Eliminate incorrect disposal - if you really want to reduce stoppages with a solution that doesn't just kick the can down the road, then provide players with the option of clearing possession as quickly as possible by any means - including what are currently deemed throws. The ability to hold off an opponent with one arm and offload possession with the other would revolutionise stoppages by allowing far more "clean" clearances, which have the knock-on effect of making coaches hold more players away from stoppages to defend the quick ball coming out, which in turn creates even more opportunity around stoppages. Many may hate just the thought of it, but this is actually my preferred option as it also addresses the current interpretive farce for umpires around incorrect disposal and holding the ball - without incorrect disposal, holding the ball (or calling for a reset ball-up) suddenly become very black and white and can be paid quickly, which also assists in reducing stoppage congestion from occurring.

Rather than zones, I would love to see an experiment in a lower or preseason competition conducted where incorrect disposal does not apply and see what happens. Coaching in Qld, one of the mix-up drills I would do now and again was exactly this (many of the players involved were also doing rugby league and this helped them to have some fun, bond with the team and show off their skills). It's anecdotal, but the results truly took me by surprise in how rapidly the ball ends up coming out from contests and pings from end to end. A group of 14 year old rugby schoolboys looked like the 2006 Eagles and absolutely destroyed stoppages with effectively a hybrid US-football block combined with rugby overlap that they invented on the fly. It quickly became the favourite scrimmage drill of the team and the name they gave it was "fastball", which sums it up nicely.

I have no doubt that most would be stunned by how much play opens up as a result of unrestrained disposal.

Not sure they are the only 2 ways to do it (they are certainly 2 leading options though).

Others are:

Team prior opportunity - i.e. first player on a team to take possession gets prior opportunity, after they dispose of it (to a team-mate) there is only correct disposal or holding the ball (none of the 'tried to dispose of it' rubbish). Will result in a lot more htb decisions but also teams looking to create space as there is a desire not to be tackled immediately on getting the ball

Throw in, ball up etc immediately (which means removing nominations at the ruck). 3 (even 4) umpires with 4x boundary umpires should be able to get the game moving before players crowd a stoppage.

Stop encouraging players to 'try' and dispose of it (but basically just drop or throw it, then paddle it along the ground). It just turns into a rolling scrum and drags more players in to what generally ends with a further stoppage. This will end with more stoppages (but if the ball is thrown up speedily then it should help) or more htb decisions.

Be ultra harsh on 50m indiscretions. Over the mark, holding after a mark, slowing a player getting up after a free, standing over the ball (denying access after a mark or free) etc. Players (coaches) are experts at slowing the game down. Deny every opportunity (faster play generally means more scoring).

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[MrKK]

Be ultra harsh on 50m indiscretions. Over the mark, holding after a mark, slowing a player getting up after a free, standing over the ball (denying access after a mark or free) etc. Players (coaches) are experts at slowing the game down. Deny every opportunity (faster play generally means more scoring).

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Definitely agree with this one. They let go all of this deliberate niggly shit that genuinely slows the game down, then ping someone for running past 8m from the bloke with the ball.

 

[RookiePick]

I've spouted it in other threads. They simply need to pay more free kicks from the existing set of rules.

Especially incorrect disposal and holding off the ball.

 

[WCE_phil]

I've spouted it in other threads. They simply need to pay more free kicks from the existing set of rules.

Especially incorrect disposal and holding off the ball.

The worst case scenario that happens with this is we have 1-2 years of 60 free kicks a game before coaches and teams move to more open and attacking styles of play.

The coaches are what slows the game down and the umpires are what are allowing it to be a slogfest.

 

[RookiePick]

The worst case scenario that happens with this is we have 1-2 years of 60 free kicks a game before coaches and teams move to more open and attacking styles of play.

The coaches are what slows the game down and the umpires are what are allowing it to be a slogfest.

They'll adapt quicker than that I'm sure. So sick of seeing footballing play makers held out of it by athletic scrubs.

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

So essendon with 6 7 8 .

The last decade of picks 6 7 8

2010 6 conca 7 caddy 8 hepple

20116 wingard 7 Haynes 8 longer

2012 6 macrae 7 wines 8 mayes

2013 6 sharenberg 7 aish 8McDonald

2014 6 marchbank 7 ahern 8 Wright

2015 6 Francis 7 hopper 8 ahchee

2016 6 petreski-seton 7 scrimshaw 8 logue

2017 6 Stephenson 7 Clarke 9 coffield

2018 6 B King 7 Smith 8 Thomas

2019 6 McAsey 7 young 8 sorong

With the limited exposure of the vic kids and the fact they won't get access to that standout top 5 this year + Ugle-Hagen its not a very good year .

 

[Bender_]

So essendon with 6 7 8 .

The last decade of picks 6 7 8

2010 6 conca 7 caddy 8 hepple

20116 wingard 7 Haynes 8 longer

2012 6 macrae 7 wines 8 mayes

2013 6 sharenberg 7 aish 8McDonald

2014 6 marchbank 7 ahern 8 Wright

2015 6 Francis 7 hopper 8 ahchee

2016 6 petreski-seton 7 scrimshaw 8 logue

2017 6 Stephenson 7 Clarke 9 coffield

2018 6 B King 7 Smith 8 Thomas

2019 6 McAsey 7 young 8 sorong

With the limited exposure of the vic kids and the fact they won't get access to that standout top 5 this year + Ugle-Hagen its not a very good year .

Some real household names right there.

 

[matt_bas]

So essendon with 6 7 8 .

The last decade of picks 6 7 8

2010 6 conca 7 caddy 8 hepple

20116 wingard 7 Haynes 8 longer

2012 6 macrae 7 wines 8 mayes

2013 6 sharenberg 7 aish 8McDonald

2014 6 marchbank 7 ahern 8 Wright

2015 6 Francis 7 hopper 8 ahchee

2016 6 petreski-seton 7 scrimshaw 8 logue

2017 6 Stephenson 7 Clarke 9 coffield

2018 6 B King 7 Smith 8 Thomas

2019 6 McAsey 7 young 8 sorong

With the limited exposure of the vic kids and the fact they won't get access to that standout top 5 this year + Ugle-Hagen its not a very good year .

Possible trade with the roos to get pick 2?

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

Possible trade with the roos to get pick 2?

Why would the roos do that ? They have a very good chance to get a gun Key position player . Picks 6 7 8 will have the top 4 KPPs gone and it gets a bit more speculative after that

 

[Coasters7]

Kim Hughes on ABC SportsTalk is an absolute classic regarding new rules in the cricket and footy, sums up what everyone is thinking.. Just why?

One thing that was raised by a caller that I found hilarious was.. Are players forced to actually stand on the “mark”? The “mark” is an imaginary spot on the ground so is it then possible to just stand a metre or so further back and say you’re not actually standing the mark, therefore letting you move laterally.

That point right there just illustrates the absolute stupidity of the rule and how little they’ve thought it through. If some random caller from the public can come up with that in less than a week then it’s going to be good to see the shambles it becomes when coaches and tacticians, who are paid to do this, get hold of it for a preseason.

 

[MrKK]

Kim Hughes on ABC SportsTalk is an absolute classic regarding new rules in the cricket and footy, sums up what everyone is thinking.. Just why?

One thing that was raised by a caller that I found hilarious was.. Are players forced to actually stand on the “mark”? The “mark” is an imaginary spot on the ground so is it then possible to just stand a metre or so further back and say you’re not actually standing the mark, therefore letting you move laterally.

That point right there just illustrates the absolute stupidity of the rule and how little they’ve thought it through. If some random caller from the public can come up with that in less than a week then it’s going to be good to see the shambles it becomes when coaches and tacticians, who are paid to do this, get hold of it for a preseason.

Hocking's explanation was that it opens up the 45-degree kicks that are deemed to be the most successful in opening up the play. But if the rules are channeling the ball movement in one direction, where do you think the defenders will set up? As you say, not thought through at all.

 

[Matera92]

These ****wits who keep tinkering with the rules to try and enforce a certain kind of gameplay fail to realise far more intelligent people are being employed by the club's to work out how to exploit the rules to the extreme to gain a competitive advantage.

 

[Chris_6678]

These *******s who keep tinkering with the rules to try and enforce a certain kind of gameplay fail to realise far more intelligent people are being employed by the club's to work out how to exploit the rules to the extreme to gain a competitive advantage.

So much this.

 

[Monocle]

These *******s who keep tinkering with the rules to try and enforce a certain kind of gameplay fail to realise far more intelligent people are being employed by the club's to work out how to exploit the rules to the extreme to gain a competitive advantage.

Agree.

But these far more intelligent people employed by the Clubs then force the plonkers at AFL house to do what they specialise at:

PLAYING CATCH UP FOOTBALL

And they do so by, actioning the catch up football, with their second ( but most often used) tool of specialty:

Making decisions on the run.

 

[shooshka]

So I understand what the swans guy is saying, but as the biggest beneficiaries of the academy system they shouldn't really complain (and the issue is fixed next year with no ability to match bids inside the 1st round)

Why Swans are calling for an overhaul of draft bidding system

List manager Kinnear Beatson is proposing a change to the current system to prevent clubs bidding on players purely to force a rival to select them

www.afl.com.au

Allowing a team to decline to match a bid then move up the draft order would be crazy. The ability to match a high bid, with a discount, when you are a successful team is already a huge advantage. Imagine giving teams a second bite of the cherry if they didn't match (and let's be honest, for the 1st round draftees how much development do the academies actually do - these guys probably get drafted regardless)

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[Rowan18]

So I understand what the swans guy is saying, but as the biggest beneficiaries of the academy system they shouldn't really complain (and the issue is fixed next year with no ability to match bids inside the 1st round)

Why Swans are calling for an overhaul of draft bidding system

List manager Kinnear Beatson is proposing a change to the current system to prevent clubs bidding on players purely to force a rival to select them

www.afl.com.au

Allowing a team to decline to match a bid then move up the draft order would be crazy. The ability to match a high bid, with a discount, when you are a successful team is already a huge advantage. Imagine giving teams a second bite of the cherry if they didn't match (and let's be honest, for the 1st round draftees how much development do the academies actually do - these guys probably get drafted regardless)

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Academies are a complete rort. The AFL should take over funding and running them, then the talent should go into the draft pool as per usual. The AFL seems to finally be realising how much they skew the draft with their changes to the bidding system.

Sydney are probably still looking at a few more years out of finals given how poor their KPP are. Imagine how bad they'd be without academies? No way they need any more legs up.