Autopsy Round 21, 2023: St.Kilda v Carlton

[phantom13]

Higgins has over 80 plus goal assists this year

According to footy wire he has 10 this year including 0 in the last 4 weeks.

He has 57 total in his career.

 

[Mowman]

According to footy wire he has 10 this year including 0 in the last 4 weeks.

He has 57 total in his career.

Just read that

My mistake score involvements it must of been

 

[StCicatriz]

worth noting given the comments we've had around ross lyon and the move he made for sicily

 

[True Blue Saint]

Ball movement turned to poo in the 2nd half, particularly the last.

So many spurned chances when we had the outnumber on transition too.

Decision making and skills in this group are both far below AFL standard

 

[AirWinmar]

Max needs to lead, every club knows he just stands and doesnt move

1 thing I didn't like the other day in RTB presser he was asked if Max will come back through the 2s and he replied something like "Max doesn't play 2s, there's always exceptions to the rule". Not sure that's a great attitude to think or state publicly. Not great for Max's mindset or his team mates and he isn't exactly Tony Lockett or Buddy Franklin just yet

 

[NoisyMinor]

Cripps had 11 clearances , the most on the ground.
If his method of breaking a tag is to win the ball and get it to an outside team-mate, then i'd say that's effective.

The whole concept of tagging is to use an "average" or "poor" player to negate a top player.
ie : Baker vs Eddie Betts. CJ vs Garry Abllett Jr.

Don't see the point of Jack Steele taking himself out of a game to force Cripps to dish it off to Acres.

Perhaps our club is so backwards they still can't see any value in Acres and refuse to give him any respect by dint of being a St. Kilda reject.

Says a lot about our evalution of players, really.

We tried to lock down a single player, while letting the remainder run circles in a one-out scenario against a superior midfield.

 

[MrFoster]

On the centre square set-up, five minutes into the third quarter Crouch had 27 disposals, Steele was tagging Cripps, and then they moved Sinclair in there. Not a lot of scraps after that.

It's well past time two of those centre square spots were reserved for some sort of composition of Jones, Bytel, Owens, Phillipou, Sinclair and Clark, with Crouch, Steele or Ross as the third mid.

Seb Ross maybe not a star, but he was a real slow burn.
After 4 years i was calling to delist him. 5th he was good.

McKenzie was 4 and the rest.

Coff might have been tracking for his 4th season breakout.
Hunter is up to his sixth now admittedly with some hiccups but the clock is ticking.

This is Bytel's 4th season, after having to sit out his first .

This is Byrne's 4th season, and he's looking like a win, not as in he's a star, but we have a good ordinary mid who can play at AFL level. The kind of player all clubs need to have some of.

This shows our development of players in the past are utterly rubbish. Not saying draftees should be superstars in year 1, but they they should show something by year 2 or 3, else you’re out.. not this we keep you on the list for 4-5 years just to see if you have potential.. that’s why most of our good players come from other clubs.. sigh!

 

[MrFoster]

Might be a bit harsh, and probably is, but Pou looked far better early in the season than he has for the past 10 or so weeks. Looks down on confidence to me.

You are correct.. Pou is having little impact the last 10 weeks.. Mostly because early in the season, we were creating turnovers and we’re using him during transition. Now he just sits in the forward line try to take a hanger or tackle, basically more like a small forward which is not his go. Should send him to Sandy and play him as a mid to see how he goes..

 

[Saintbloke]

You are correct.. Pou is having little impact the last 10 weeks.. Mostly because early in the season, we were creating turnovers and we’re using him during transition. Now he just sits in the forward line try to take a hanger or tackle, basically more like a small forward which is not his go. Should send him to Sandy and play him as a mid to see how he goes..

If we had more pressure on the list for senior positions, then Pou and Caminiti may have well been at Sandy now developing their craft as raw young talents.

 

[gringo2011]

Coffs 23 now, he was 21 when he did his knee coming off a really impressive season and with a solid pre season under his belt.

I actually agree with you holistically about our development and drafting but Coffs an exception to that, he was looking very nice until the knee.

I think we have strong recency bias on here. Guys not playing are stars like Coff and Hayes. The ones that we are forced to watch are spuds. Coff was a good mark but he was very static and low production. He was getting sent back to the VFL in his last season. People want Phillipou dropped but he’d be getting similar numbers.

I don’t want to throw him away but I think he should be on a one year contract and see what happens.

 

[phantom13]

I think we have strong recency bias on here. Guys not playing are stars like Coff and Hayes. The ones that we are forced to watch are spuds. Coff was a good mark but he was very static and low production. He was getting sent back to the VFL in his last season. People want Phillipou dropped but he’d be getting similar numbers.

I don’t want to throw him away but I think he should be on a one year contract and see what happens.

Nah, i have no real bias with Coff and i agree with you on the one year deal and watching brief but he was developing really nicely.

Hayes is important structurally but if him going down ruins us weve got huge issues.

Pou to me just looks a bit weary and tired, hes a baby, i wouldnt be against him having a spell but only for a refresh.

You and I are the kings of the negative on here and part of me is sure that even if Coff didnt do his knee, then hammy, then whatever, that we would have ****ed his development anyway but theres some revisionism in saying he was plodding before the knee. He looked like a rare draft hit for us.

 

[The Punter]

2020 Coffield gave us about 75% percent of what NWM has been giving us this year in run and accurate, productive disposal by foot, and about 75% of what Battle gives us as an intercept defender. In one player. We become more versatile if we get that guy back, because it frees up others.

2021 he looked poor early, probably a combination of the documented pre-season and drinking his own bathwater. Considering the reports of how he came back in 2022, it appears the penny dropped that he couldn't slacken off if he wanted to be elite. He's been injured pretty much ever since.

I don't expect much from him for the rest of this year, but a full pre-season and he should be first 22 Round 1 next year.

 

[Minga]

2020 Coffield gave us about 75% percent of what NWM has been giving us this year in run and accurate, productive disposal by foot, and about 75% of what Battle gives us as an intercept defender. In one player. We become more versatile if we get that guy back, because it frees up others.

2021 he looked poor early, probably a combination of the documented pre-season and drinking his own bathwater. Considering the reports of how he came back in 2022, it appears the penny dropped that he couldn't slacken off if he wanted to be elite. He's been injured pretty much ever since.

I don't expect much from him for the rest of this year, but a full pre-season and he should be first 22 Round 1 next year.

2020 Coff was a better intercept player than 2023 Battle IMO. Battle the better player defender though if that makes sense.

But I 100% agree, he’s a true asset and not worth much rn on the market, so I hope we persist as his ceiling is high.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Nah, i have no real bias with Coff and i agree with you on the one year deal and watching brief but he was developing really nicely.

Hayes is important structurally but if him going down ruins us weve got huge issues.

Pou to me just looks a bit weary and tired, hes a baby, i wouldnt be against him having a spell but only for a refresh.

You and I are the kings of the negative on here and part of me is sure that even if Coff didnt do his knee, then hammy, then whatever, that we would have ****ed his development anyway but theres some revisionism in saying he was plodding before the knee. He looked like a rare draft hit for us.

Coff had a poor year in 2021 that coincided with Ratts infamous 'train yourselves' pre season & getting a big head after a great 2020. People were blowing smoke up his ar5e & he didn't do the work he needed to do.

From all reports he'd pulled that big head in & worked his arse off during preseason 21/22 only to blow out his knee.

He's a massive talent that we have only just seen glimpses of.

I'd give him at least 2 years... maybe with a games played trigger for a 3rd.

Offer him one year & I guarantee another club will come calling with a 3 year deal & we'll have another Joel Smith scenario on our hands.

 

[phantom13]

Coff had a poor year in 2021 that coincided with Ratts infamous 'train yourselves' pre season & getting a big head after a great 2020. People were blowing smoke up his ar5e & he didn't do the work he needed to do.

From all reports he'd pulled that big head in & worked his arse off during preseason 21/22 only to blow out his knee.

He's a massive talent that we have only just seen glimpses of.

I'd give him at least 2 years... maybe with a games played trigger for a 3rd.

Offer him one year & I guarantee another club will come calling with a 3 year deal & we'll have another Joel Smith scenario on our hands.

Thats fair, i can see the risk/reward to both a 1 and 2 year deal.

 

[CaptainRisky]

I think we have strong recency bias on here. Guys not playing are stars like Coff and Hayes. The ones that we are forced to watch are spuds. Coff was a good mark but he was very static and low production. He was getting sent back to the VFL in his last season. People want Phillipou dropped but he’d be getting similar numbers.

I don’t want to throw him away but I think he should be on a one year contract and see what happens.

Christ , i thought after a sleep you might have stopped and left the bone in your bowl , looks like your going to continue banging on about Coff

 

[gringo2011]

Christ , i thought after a sleep you might have stopped and left the bone in your bowl , looks like your going to continue banging on about Coff

You are the mental campaigners that think that he was a star. He was a promising player but he was hardly tracking like a superstar. If he hadn’t cost a first round pick I doubt he’d get a contract for next year. I really doubt there are sides lining up to poach him. I want to keep him because we have sunk a lot into him and might as well roll the dice on him but give him a year and hope. We aren’t as s**t at replacing players these days. We don’t need to lock a up a place in the side for years on a guy who’s looking physically fragile. Most of the first and second year players have shown just as much.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You are the mental campaigners that think that he was a star. He was a promising player but he was hardly tracking like a superstar. If he hadn’t cost a first round pick I doubt he’d get a contract for next year. I really doubt there are sides lining up to poach him. I want to keep him because we have sunk a lot into him and might as well roll the dice on him but give him a year and hope. We aren’t as s**t at replacing players these days. We don’t need to lock a up a place in the side for years on a guy who’s looking physically fragile. Most of the first and second year players have shown just as much.

Good he's not looking physically fragile.

 

[tomjoad]

The worst thing about it was he was close to BOG and he was still frustrating as *. We were down on ground level and you could see there was often nothing to kick to ahead of him. Lots of turn overs were on his team-mates who wouldn't run into space. Plenty in marking range stood still and pointed to players 80 meters from him.

That's very disappointing. I can only watch the games on screen and despite myself, have to rely on the commentators to some degree. You don't get to see or listen to the "whole" just the parts offered.
To me we just look highly unskilled, and don't play for each other.
I guess, I'm half right...with my half games.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

worth noting given the comments we've had around ross lyon and the move he made for sicily

Well gee , maybe the clubs ought to have a tactician to spot these sorts of things before we play them.

 

[jwikked]

Well gee , maybe the clubs ought to have a tactician to spot these sorts of things before we play them.

Do teams really need to employ someone to tell them Sicily is good in defense? Sometimes I wonder what they do all week when it comes to preparation for the next team.

 

[StCicatriz]

Well gee , maybe the clubs ought to have a tactician to spot these sorts of things before we play them.

my point was more that ross had placed sharman on sicily and it worked

they do. opposition analyst.

 

[Mowman]

my point was more that ross had placed sharman on sicily and it worked

they do. opposition analyst.

RTB said he went to Dogs - Tigers game with our opposition scout

 

[tomjoad]

1 thing I didn't like the other day in RTB presser he was asked if Max will come back through the 2s and he replied something like "Max doesn't play 2s, there's always exceptions to the rule". Not sure that's a great attitude to think or state publicly. Not great for Max's mindset or his team mates and he isn't exactly Tony Lockett or Buddy Franklin just yet

100%
King has a long way to go.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Do teams really need to employ someone to tell them Sicily is good in defense? Sometimes I wonder what they do all week when it comes to preparation for the next team.

I remember reading once that Max Hudghton, ( not during compulsory training ) would study footage of his upcoming advisory , work out their strengths and weaknesses, and the best way to play on them.
Must have sucked when Zac came into the team and he didn't know if he was playing or not, or who he'd be playing on.

I'd consider that for "key matchups" it would be worth having a specialist to go through footage with the people who would be involved. If they know early enough.