Opinion Round 9 Changes vs. Carlton

[MadEyeEmmy]

Agreed. I don't worry as much about Ballas, being a tendon that was operated on, but Hill's was a hammy muscle tear and if we bring him back in the wet and he reinjures it I'll be feral

Absolutely. Hill has been excellent and we want to make sure he's absolutely cherry ripe.

 

[E Shed]

I agree to a certain extent, but I doubt it's that simple in reality.
Not saying I'd change anything now, and not saying I want all the experienced players back (far from it) but I think that's a bit of an easy way to look at it.

Long way to go yet.

the other point I forgot to make in my previous reply is I don't think you can underestimate the effect of adding players like Brad Hill and Cam McCarthy.
Hill comes from an elite system with 3 premiership medallions but more importantly he always looks like he reckons he can beat anyone out there. His running, evasiveness, he knows he's better than most others and he backs himself to present and carry the ball. We have been so sorely lacking players like that.
McCarthy is another that just looks like he backs himself to play with dash and flair. We've been crying out for this type.

 

[Nothing]

I'm not sure how else you can look at it. From about 2015 on the team went backwards in terms of confidence, moving the ball, playing on, executing skills. The team peaked.
Bringing in fresh blood who are young and daring with something to prove has energised the whole team and got out mojo back.
Always willing to hear alternate explanations but with respect you've challenged my analysis without providing an alternative one.
Its all good, I love a good discussion. Curious to hear what else you think is responsible for the change in team dynamics other than new personnel.

A counterpoint...
The players who have been excelling are the older players (Mundy, Neale, S Hill all BOG) and the recruits (B Hill, McCarthy, Hamling and to a lesser degree Kersten). The shiny toys, who were brought in have hardly been the difference. Logue, Sheridan have added nothing (not saying they wont be in the previous 6 games), Crozier and Balic not far off. Grey and Hughes have been somewhere between OK and good. Sutcliffe, Tucker and DP are back in and contributing well what changed if they were the problem?
So was the issue a lack of time to gel? Was it the major structural change of dropping J Griffin? Was it going with 1 less KPD? Was it Neale, Fyfe, MJ and others playing a few games after long layoffs?

I think it is simplistic to say that younguns have turned us around. When for the most part it has been the new recruits and seasoned players who have been the difference.

A reminder of the R3 changes.
IN
Ethan Hughes, Tommy Sheridan, Brady Grey, Harley Balic, Griffin Logue, Hayden Crozier
OUT
Cameron Sutcliffe (Omitted), Darcy Tucker (Omitted), Danyle Pearce (Omitted), Zac Dawson (Omitted), Nick Suban (Omitted), Jonathon Griffin (Omitted)

 

[go_the_dockers]

the other point I forgot to make in my previous reply is I don't think you can underestimate the effect of adding players like Brad Hill and Cam McCarthy.
Hill comes from an elite system with 3 premiership medallions but more importantly he always looks like he reckons he can beat anyone out there. His running, evasiveness, he knows he's better than most others and he backs himself to present and carry the ball. We have been so sorely lacking players like that.
McCarthy is another that just looks like he backs himself to play with dash and flair. We've been crying out for this type.

Hamling is an upgrade on Dawson as well. His ability to take marks, instead of just spoiling the ball is great.

 

[Kram]

Just boning Dawson, Griffin and Suban made such a big difference. The 3 of shouldn't have been anywhere near the best 22 in 2017.

 

[E Shed]

I think it is simplistic to say that younguns have turned us around. When for the most part it has been the new recruits and seasoned players who have been the difference.

Yes after I post I realised someone was going to go there.
What I should have written was that although its the senior players carrying most of the load the team dynamic has changed, all the decent pundits who have played the game say its mostly between the ears and our confidence levels have increased sharply.
This is from a combination of injecting our recruits and younger players, the increasing confidence has flowed through the team and its no coincidence we are seeing excellent form from the likes of MJ, Mundy etc.

 

[gaskin]

but Hill's was a hammy muscle tear and if we bring him back in the wet and he reinjures it I'll be feral

Agreed. With the forecast at the moment being rain for Sunday, I would wait and bring him back in 2 weeks for the Collingwood game. I wouldn't bother taking him to Adelaide next week.

 

[F_therest]

It will be interesting to see if any freo players throw out those type of sledges game day. It's a low blow. Got to feel for the guy but it's a mans game. Will be interesting to see how he reacts to any if they come his way. He should be expecting them I suppose

I'd be surprised. Ross Lyon was on 'On the Couch' and said he didn't want his players to say that kind of stuff...said he'd talk to the boys about upholding high standards.

Besides, St Kilda just got panned in the media and there's been so much hoopla about it...as if Freo would want to bring that kind of negative attention to themselves RIGHT after all this talk about stamping it out of the game. It would make Freo look bad.

 

[wayToGo_]

A counterpoint...
The players who have been excelling are the older players (Mundy, Neale, S Hill all BOG) and the recruits (B Hill, McCarthy, Hamling and to a lesser degree Kersten). The shiny toys, who were brought in have hardly been the difference. Logue, Sheridan have added nothing (not saying they wont be in the previous 6 games), Crozier and Balic not far off. Grey and Hughes have been somewhere between OK and good. Sutcliffe, Tucker and DP are back in and contributing well what changed if they were the problem?
So was the issue a lack of time to gel? Was it the major structural change of dropping J Griffin? Was it going with 1 less KPD? Was it Neale, Fyfe, MJ and others playing a few games after long layoffs?

I think it is simplistic to say that younguns have turned us around. When for the most part it has been the new recruits and seasoned players who have been the difference.

A reminder of the R3 changes.
IN
Ethan Hughes, Tommy Sheridan, Brady Grey, Harley Balic, Griffin Logue, Hayden Crozier
OUT
Cameron Sutcliffe (Omitted), Darcy Tucker (Omitted), Danyle Pearce (Omitted), Zac Dawson (Omitted), Nick Suban (Omitted), Jonathon Griffin (Omitted)

It wasn't about individuals though, it was about a change in team attitude and bringing in 6 guys who had the right attitude (nothing to lose) can be contagious. It's the same thing that made Peel so strong through finals last year, not surprisingly it's also how our previous Fremantle teams have been successful under Lyon and I'd also account it to why we have managed to win a bunch of close games over the last few weeks.

In rounds 1 & 2 the team played like it was a chore. Since then (excepting the West Coast game) you can just see they are all enjoying playing together. I personally think we are still a long way from our best. As much as our senior players have stood up in the important moments I think our team has been far more even than last year and the year before (when we were minor premiers). In 2015 Fyfe almost single handedly carried us over the line in half our wins. That hasn't been the case this year and different players are stepping up each week (eg Walters and Hill on the weekend) whilst the rest of the group is sharing the load more imo.

Apart from Sandi, Mundy and MJ, our youngsters are generally providing equitable or greater output than our older stalwarts have over the past couple of years. We need to continue piping games experience into them and gradually bring more young talent into the mix because with due respect to the older stalwarts on the bench, they are solid role players but they just don't seem to have the same drive to win that the youngsters do.

 

[F_therest]

Carlton supporters seem confident on their board. I know they're not complete and utter dog s**t anymore but surely we can beat them this weekend?

Every reason to be optimistic...i mean sure you guys are the favourites especially at home though we do play pretty well over there normally.

Both teams playing some good footy...you guys a bit better obviously but not by so much that we're already writing this week off as a loss.

I'd probably have Freo favourites around 60 - 40 myself.
If we're 'on' and you're a bit off we are certainly a big chance.

 

[F_therest]

They should be. For some reason the past few years we have struggled massively against them at Subi even when conventional wisdom has said we should smash them.

Yeah we just seem to match up against you quite well for some reason...typically a good contest.
Both teams have quite a lot of new players since even last time we played though and if it rains that would probably skew things in our favour.

 

[meima]

We need to continue piping games experience into them and gradually bring more young talent into the mix because with due respect to the older stalwarts on the bench, they are solid role players but they just don't seem to have the same drive to win that the youngsters do.

Can't agree more , also those young players apart from sherriden and logue (limited) plays no JLT with the senior players at all.

 

[Spoken4]

Had a quick look on the Blues Board. Lots of them talking up an easy victory. Amazing how a team that has been rubbish for more than 20 years can have such deluded supporters.

 

[rgauci]

A counterpoint...
The players who have been excelling are the older players (Mundy, Neale, S Hill all BOG) and the recruits (B Hill, McCarthy, Hamling and to a lesser degree Kersten). The shiny toys, who were brought in have hardly been the difference. Logue, Sheridan have added nothing (not saying they wont be in the previous 6 games), Crozier and Balic not far off. Grey and Hughes have been somewhere between OK and good. Sutcliffe, Tucker and DP are back in and contributing well what changed if they were the problem?
So was the issue a lack of time to gel? Was it the major structural change of dropping J Griffin? Was it going with 1 less KPD? Was it Neale, Fyfe, MJ and others playing a few games after long layoffs?

I think it is simplistic to say that younguns have turned us around. When for the most part it has been the new recruits and seasoned players who have been the difference.

A reminder of the R3 changes.
IN
Ethan Hughes, Tommy Sheridan, Brady Grey, Harley Balic, Griffin Logue, Hayden Crozier
OUT
Cameron Sutcliffe (Omitted), Darcy Tucker (Omitted), Danyle Pearce (Omitted), Zac Dawson (Omitted), Nick Suban (Omitted), Jonathon Griffin (Omitted)

It's pretty clear, it was Suban.








just kidding, love the Subes.

 

[Nothing]

Yes after I post I realised someone was going to go there.
What I should have written was that although its the senior players carrying most of the load the team dynamic has changed, all the decent pundits who have played the game say its mostly between the ears and our confidence levels have increased sharply.
This is from a combination of injecting our recruits and younger players, the increasing confidence has flowed through the team and its no coincidence we are seeing excellent form from the likes of MJ, Mundy etc.

I'm more playing devil's advocate here, I do think the younger guys have been important. However, it's the unknown how much difference the improvement of the team would be just with the 4 additions plus changing Griffin (2 rucks is dead). Giving time to those new recruits to impact the team might have been the catalyst to change.

It wasn't about individuals though, it was about a change in team attitude and bringing in 6 guys who had the right attitude (nothing to lose) can be contagious. It's the same thing that made Peel so strong through finals last year, not surprisingly it's also how our previous Fremantle teams have been successful under Lyon and I'd also account it to why we have managed to win a bunch of close games over the last few weeks.

In rounds 1 & 2 the team played like it was a chore. Since then (excepting the West Coast game) you can just see they are all enjoying playing together. I personally think we are still a long way from our best. As much as our senior players have stood up in the important moments I think our team has been far more even than last year and the year before (when we were minor premiers). In 2015 Fyfe almost single handedly carried us over the line in half our wins. That hasn't been the case this year and different players are stepping up each week (eg Walters and Hill on the weekend) whilst the rest of the group is sharing the load more imo.

Apart from Sandi, Mundy and MJ, our youngsters are generally providing equitable or greater output than our older stalwarts have over the past couple of years. We need to continue piping games experience into them and gradually bring more young talent into the mix because with due respect to the older stalwarts on the bench, they are solid role players but they just don't seem to have the same drive to win that the youngsters do.

I think the development that has gone into the younguns means that they can contribute more now that they are in. It is easy to blame those who have been booted, but DP showed on the weekend that he is still an average AFL player (average in the mathematical sense). Likewise, placing all the credit for the increased success on the changes at R3 is myopic, it doesn't allow for a bunch of other considerations like the opposition at the time, fitness, teamwork, game plan.

It's pretty clear, it was Suban.

Alright you've convinced me, it was Suban, Get him.

 

[Unique Name]

It wasn't about individuals though, it was about a change in team attitude and bringing in 6 guys who had the right attitude (nothing to lose) can be contagious. It's the same thing that made Peel so strong through finals last year, not surprisingly it's also how our previous Fremantle teams have been successful under Lyon and I'd also account it to why we have managed to win a bunch of close games over the last few weeks.

In rounds 1 & 2 the team played like it was a chore. Since then (excepting the West Coast game) you can just see they are all enjoying playing together. I personally think we are still a long way from our best. As much as our senior players have stood up in the important moments I think our team has been far more even than last year and the year before (when we were minor premiers). In 2015 Fyfe almost single handedly carried us over the line in half our wins. That hasn't been the case this year and different players are stepping up each week (eg Walters and Hill on the weekend) whilst the rest of the group is sharing the load more imo.

Apart from Sandi, Mundy and MJ, our youngsters are generally providing equitable or greater output than our older stalwarts have over the past couple of years. We need to continue piping games experience into them and gradually bring more young talent into the mix because with due respect to the older stalwarts on the bench, they are solid role players but they just don't seem to have the same drive to win that the youngsters do.

Agree for the most part, but....

Dawson out was a massive change. Previously when we got the ball in the backline other teams would leave Dawson in space, never manning him up. It was win/win for them. They had an extra forward that could apply pressure elsewhere or we would kick it to Dawson and he would either slow up our transition/make a blunder.

It used to be worth it when Dawson was an excellent shutdown defender, but Hamling is as capable as him as a shutdown defender and is able to move the ball on in transition meaning he gets manned up when we get the ball.

Also Suban out is a big positive, he was just a below average player. Tucker is already eclipsing his output and he's spending 30% less time on ground than what Suban was averaging.

 

[freo1997]

Just checked the Carlton board. Very over confident mob. They're talking about Liam jones coming in......wtf

 

[meima]

Popular demand and wet weather conditions
Suban in
Crozier out.

I am not serious.

 

[stax on the mull]

A couple of teams have gotten hold of Carlton this year, but they've been showing they get numbers back in defence and they are pretty hard to score against and if its wet weather it will likely exacerbate that. . Our inability to get through their defence was the issue last year when they beat us.

 

[WeaselWJ]

Had a quick look on the Blues Board. Lots of them talking up an easy victory. Amazing how a team that has been rubbish for more than 20 years can have such deluded supporters.

You talking about us or Carlton?

 

[freo1997]

A couple of teams have gotten hold of Carlton this year, but they've been showing they get numbers back in defence and they are pretty hard to score against and if its wet weather it will likely exacerbate that. . Our inability to get through their defence was the issue last year when they beat us.

With all due respect we had inability in every area last year.But i did watch their game against essendon in the wet...they were ok. We have the bigger bodies, we'll do ok.

 

[ydraw]

Agree for the most part, but....

Dawson out was a massive change. Previously when we got the ball in the backline other teams would leave Dawson in space, never manning him up. It was win/win for them. They had an extra forward that could apply pressure elsewhere or we would kick it to Dawson and he would either slow up our transition/make a blunder..

Agreed. Dawson and Griffin going out was a massive change. We were playing 16 vs 18 for a fair portion of the game by playing 2 players who were extremely one-dimensional.

When we had the ball, Dawson might as well not have been on the ground. It was like playing a man short for half the game. He is a very good defender, but you can't afford to have players who only defend any more.

 

[Spoken4]

Winning 5 out of the last 6 says there won't be many changes apart from Injuries . Hill and Balla will be automatic when fit .

Yes to Hill, no to Ballas (unless Grey goes out with injury). I would want to see Ballas put together 2 or 3 impressive games together at Peel before returning to the seniors.

 

[Unique Name]

Agreed. Dawson and Griffin going out was a massive change. We were playing 16 vs 18 for a fair portion of the game by playing 2 players who were extremely one-dimensional.

When we had the ball, Dawson might as well not have been on the ground. It was like playing a man short for half the game. He is a very good defender, but you can't afford to have players who only defend any more.

Yep, forgot about Griff aswell.

Dropping the 2nd ruck was another massive change. 2 slow lumbering rucks was a major blunder at the selection table.

 

[stax on the mull]

With all due respect we had inability in every area last year.But i did watch their game against essendon in the wet...they were ok. We have the bigger bodies, we'll do ok.

I reckon they'd be about the same in age/game number average as us and they could break even in the midfield with Cripps, Murphy, Gibbs, Curnow, SPS and Kruezer.

Hopefully it will go the same way as the pre-season game this year.