Second Tier AFL league

[footyfan1978]

We could talk all day about these things but the bottom line is the AFL will do what works best for them financially, they are not going to do what is best for the game or the sport. The sport itself is something the AFL care very little about.

There is always that option to give up, become cynical, accept less of people in charge of game and get into line and accept the mess it is. I'm not that type of person. I still believe there is hope of some in charge still actually have some care of game they grew up loving and playing. That fact Fitzpatrick wanted to reel in the interchange shows some still care about the game itself.

 

[telsor]

I agree with you agreeing with me.

Its an observation on the health & future on the game & the players, at all levels IMHO. I talk to doctors in the health system & all the ones I chat to & talk about footy with at times, agree with this. The AFL have made changes to look after players. BUT NOT ENOUGH.

I think there are groups, like doctors, who will always think that more can be done, the trick is finding the right balance.

Cutting the bench in order to slow down the game is, in my opinion, a reasonable way of doing that.

That said, I'd rather do it by having fewer on the bench rather than limits to the number on the bench because that's a change that's far more easily replicated in lower grades of competition where finding another official to reliably count the interchanges could prove difficult. (that it means more/better players for lower grades is an added bonus)

 

[captain cotch 9]

It makes sense that there is a 2nd tier.
The state leagues will suffer badly buts best for the game IMO.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

It makes sense that there is a 2nd tier.
The state leagues will suffer badly buts best for the game IMO.

There is a second tier now, it is the state leagues. No AFL clubs absolute second 22 would win the VFL/SANFL or WAFL.
Peel have won the Last two WAFL premierships but have played 5-7 of the Dockers best 22 in those games so it was not their reserves side.

You have to also remember that all AFL lists have a minimum of 10 players on their lists that are not even up to State League top side standard. they are just kids with Potential.

So again how is it best for the game?

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

There is a second tier now, it is the state leagues. No AFL clubs absolute second 22 would win the VFL/SANFL or WAFL.
Peel have won the Last two WAFL premierships but have played 5-7 of the Dockers best 22 in those games so it was not their reserves side.

You have to also remember that all AFL lists have a minimum of 10 players on their lists that are not even up to State League top side standard. they are just kids with Potential.

So again how is it best for the game?

The problems aren't that the state leagues are open-age.
The problem is that the state leagues a mix of different things for the clubs. The VFL the worst, as the majority of clubs are compromised.
For some clubs, the minority in the VFL, winning the premiership is why they exist. That is how it should be for all clubs. Others are a reserves team, playing to the senior team's game plans, keeping up match fitness, any other requirements, the priority Winning games of footy doesn't matter. Then there are hybrid teams where the actual club wants wins, but are in varying degrees subservient to other clubs which try to treat them as though they are reserves.
The competitions are compromised, because different clubs have different reasons for their existence in the league.

Just get a national reserves, and proper funding to state leagues which are struggling in the face of AFL holding a virtual monopoly on all media and sponsorship. There is no need to turn state leagues into under-age player farms.
Indeed, it could be counter-productive in terms of quality. The best under-21s outside the AFL system are already in the state leagues and playing against mid-career better (at the moment) players can only hasten their development. The best under-18s can do that outside of Victoria, but the further separation of under-18s away from the VFL erodes that chance. (I could be wrong ere but believe) Its reasonably rare in SA and WA, but the very best do get the opportunity to play against men.

 

[footyfan1978]

The problems aren't that the state leagues are open-age.

The leagues called state leagues have no meaning anymore as the open age best state players are in the AFL.
Hello, is anyone getting this ?
Hence these leagues need re-purposed but keep the identity of the old clubs from SANFL, WAFL and VFA. But the leagues need a new meaning for what the clubs are striving for.

AFL reserves team needs it's own place and competition. All AFL players from each club should have seniors and reserves play on same day. That does not mean most curtain raisers but the reserves of both clubs should be playing nearest quality football ground nearby. It is beyond a joke that some players have their seniors on Friday night and players not in it play Sunday. If they play Sunday and their senior team play Friday again the next week they either cannot play seniors next week no matter how well they play because of six day break rule, or need to pull out of reserves game that weekend to ensure they available. It is a bloody dogs breakfast.

Reserve comp needed to happen long ago.

 

[kranky al]

If there was a competing pay tv provider there could be a chance of something imaginative. But it is very very unlikely to be successful. Having to pay for travel and having to pay enough to make participants mostly full timers is just too high a bar.

Id love netflix to come in and scoop the afl

 

[simba_]

they seem to want the AFL brand to control everything from the top down which would include a reserves comp being completely made up by AFL 2's as opposed to any East Perth's, West Adelaide's etc. they've slowly been taking over those VFL clubs haven't they, once that's done all they'd have to do is repeat history and rename the VFL the AFL reserves and throw some teams like West Coast and Freo reserves in, chuck Port and Adelaide in who are working on their models being ready for this. unfortunately it can't be anything that could have relegation/promotion, any of the current clubs outside the AFL i.e. your West Adelaide, East Perth, it'd be more like the A-League youth league

 

[thegreig]

Keep WAFL and SANFL but make a new east coast league that has Vic AFL reserves, northern clubs and add in NT and Tas

 

[madmug]

Keep WAFL and SANFL but make a new east coast league that has Vic AFL reserves, northern clubs and add in NT and Tas

During the days the Tassie devils were in the VFL, people their were saying the AFL planned to have an east coast league. That eventuated as NEAFL x2, without Tassie. Then clubs were cut & it became one league. Now its changed again into virtually a split league with nonAFL teams only playing AFL teams once, but each other 3 times. Its a pretend competition.
Clearly the AFL had no clue as to how to structure it, as it has been changed regularly. Its really typical of the AFL, all noise & no idea, no clear direction or idea of expected outcomes.
I fear for the second tier of football. The AFL don't care & clearly have no real idea what they want. All power & no responsibility accepted.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

The problems aren't that the state leagues are open-age.
The problem is that the state leagues a mix of different things for the clubs. The VFL the worst, as the majority of clubs are compromised.
For some clubs, the minority in the VFL, winning the premiership is why they exist. That is how it should be for all clubs. Others are a reserves team, playing to the senior team's game plans, keeping up match fitness, any other requirements, the priority Winning games of footy doesn't matter. Then there are hybrid teams where the actual club wants wins, but are in varying degrees subservient to other clubs which try to treat them as though they are reserves.
The competitions are compromised, because different clubs have different reasons for their existence in the league.

Just get a national reserves, and proper funding to state leagues which are struggling in the face of AFL holding a virtual monopoly on all media and sponsorship. There is no need to turn state leagues into under-age player farms.
Indeed, it could be counter-productive in terms of quality. The best under-21s outside the AFL system are already in the state leagues and playing against mid-career better (at the moment) players can only hasten their development. The best under-18s can do that outside of Victoria, but the further separation of under-18s away from the VFL erodes that chance. (I could be wrong ere but believe) Its reasonably rare in SA and WA, but the very best do get the opportunity to play against men.

But where would funding for both a reserves comp and more funding for state leagues come from?

It's either/or IMO, not both:
1. Have a proper national reserves comp (more expensive but provides exactly what the AFL clubs need/want - but at a likely detriment to support/funding of state leagues)
2. Continue and roll-out further the Reserves teams in state leagues model. (Or similar - one WAFL proposal was that Freo/WCE arent actually in the WAFL but instead plan teams on their "bye" round). Has its problems but is a hell of a lot cheaper.

I dont see a reserves comp happening anytime soon. Its too expensive, not high on the priority list, and there is a reasonable alternative already in place - and able to be expanded.

I know that a lot of people involved in the state leagues are not happy with this arrangement, or with increasing it, but they receive a lot of financial benefits from AFL involvement, and my guess is that removing this AFL link would see a very significant decline in quality and revenue of state competitions over the next 10-15 years.

Its not ideal having clubs with different goals/motivations but its not as big a problem as you are trying to suggest. It's not that different to the AFL where some teams are in "win now" mode and others are in development mode - also AFL reserves teams are competitive without dominating (bar a Peel team loaded with best 22 Freo players) - isnt that exactly what we would want?

Its also not unique.
In Spanish Football the reservesfor Top Flight teams play in the lower divisions - some even in 2nd Division. This works quite well because it gives their youngsters (and developing managers) competitive football without having to be loaned out elsewhere. Only rule is they cant be promoted to the same division as the parent club, and dont play in the cup competitiobs.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

A second tier with promotion/relegation would be good

It's hard for the health of a competition when the bottom teams benfit from losing and there's no repurcussions from bottoming out (unless you admit it)

Teams from a bottom div pushing up would keep lower places top div teams on their toes etc.

 

[madmug]

A second tier with promotion/relegation would be good

It's hard for the health of a competition when the bottom teams benfit from losing and there's no repurcussions from bottoming out (unless you admit it)

Teams from a bottom div pushing up would keep lower places top div teams on their toes etc.

That may work well for AR football, however it would be expensive & the AFL wouldn't want to spend any less on its office jockeys. After all, the game is their to provide them & their mates with a 'good' income & lifestyle.

 

[Kwality]

Keep WAFL and SANFL but make a new east coast league that has Vic AFL reserves, northern clubs and add in NT and Tas

Do you want a 2nd tier NT & Tas side - whats that do to footy in Tas - havent the AFL done enough damage?
What do you want to do to the NEAFL, pull out the AFL affiliates & weaken it further?

Whats best for Vic doesnt do much for expanding the game nationally.

 

[Kwality]

A second tier with promotion/relegation would be good

It's hard for the health of a competition when the bottom teams benfit from losing and there's no repurcussions from bottoming out (unless you admit it)

Teams from a bottom div pushing up would keep lower places top div teams on their toes etc.

Seriously?

 

[Kwality]

But where would funding for both a reserves comp and more funding for state leagues come from?

It's either/or IMO, not both:
1. Have a proper national reserves comp (more expensive but provides exactly what the AFL clubs need/want - but at a likely detriment to support/funding of state leagues)
2. Continue and roll-out further the Reserves teams in state leagues model. (Or similar - one WAFL proposal was that Freo/WCE arent actually in the WAFL but instead plan teams on their "bye" round). Has its problems but is a hell of a lot cheaper.

I dont see a reserves comp happening anytime soon. Its too expensive, not high on the priority list, and there is a reasonable alternative already in place - and able to be expanded.

I know that a lot of people involved in the state leagues are not happy with this arrangement, or with increasing it, but they receive a lot of financial benefits from AFL involvement, and my guess is that removing this AFL link would see a very significant decline in quality and revenue of state competitions over the next 10-15 years.

Its not ideal having clubs with different goals/motivations but its not as big a problem as you are trying to suggest. It's not that different to the AFL where some teams are in "win now" mode and others are in development mode - also AFL reserves teams are competitive without dominating (bar a Peel team loaded with best 22 Freo players) - isnt that exactly what we would want?

Its also not unique.
In Spanish Football the reservesfor Top Flight teams play in the lower divisions - some even in 2nd Division. This works quite well because it gives their youngsters (and developing managers) competitive football without having to be loaned out elsewhere. Only rule is they cant be promoted to the same division as the parent club, and dont play in the cup competitiobs.

used your left here, spot on.

 

[cub]

Beyond stupid this

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

I think there's room for an AFL Div 2.

North Melbourne**
Gold Coast
Newcastle
North Queensland
Darwin
Canberra
Hobart
Launceston
Norwood*
East Perth*
Western Bulldogs**
St Kilda**

*These are examples as I have no idea of the relative strength of these clubs.
**These are also just examples but would be the 3 weakest Vic clubs at time of formation.

Div 2 Grand Finalists get promoted. Div 1 bottom 2 get relegated.

 

[saint_]

I think there's room for an AFL Div 2.

North Melbourne**
Gold Coast
Newcastle
North Queensland
Darwin
Canberra
Hobart
Launceston
Norwood*
East Perth*
Western Bulldogs**
St Kilda**

*These are examples as I have no idea of the relative strength of these clubs.
**These are also just examples but would be the 3 weakest Vic clubs at time of formation.

Div 2 Grand Finalists get promoted. Div 1 bottom 2 get relegated.

It wouldn't be good for the game if you had both QLD teams Brisbane & Gold Coast drop to Div2 based on this years ladder results.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

It wouldn't be good for the game if you had both QLD teams Brisbane & Gold Coast drop to Div2 based on this years ladder results.

I dunno. It wouldn't "be good for the game" for any club to be relegated. But I bet the Tasmanians wouldn't be complaining.

 

[Kwality]

I think there's room for an AFL Div 2.

North Melbourne**
Gold Coast
Newcastle
North Queensland
Darwin
Canberra
Hobart
Launceston
Norwood*
East Perth*
Western Bulldogs**
St Kilda**

*These are examples as I have no idea of the relative strength of these clubs.
**These are also just examples but would be the 3 weakest Vic clubs at time of formation.

Div 2 Grand Finalists get promoted. Div 1 bottom 2 get relegated.

Bruce
how can you leave Subi out, regular GF participant, produces mature AFL selections & though East Freo are the standout for producing kids that are drafted, Subi pulls its weight.
On subject a 2nds division will be a waste of couple of bags of gold, year in, year out.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

Seriously?

Constructive

 

[Kwality]

Constructive

Where would a 2nd tier team get its funding from? Unrealistic dreamer. Remember that yawn, the Foxtel Cup, 2nd rate doesn't rate.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

Where would a 2nd tier team get its funding from? Unrealistic dreamer. Remember that yawn, the Foxtel Cup, 2nd rate doesn't rate.

The Foxel cup was independent of the AFL - there was no way a team could move from one competition to the other. Plus there was very little interest from fans of teams who weren't in that competition other than maybe scoping out potential players to poach from the lower leagues. My proposal was for two tiers with relegation/promotion where you could see a team from the other competition facing you the following season or derbies, showdowns not happen because the relevant teams are in opposing competitions

Sure, its wholly unrealistic in terms of funding or possibility of it happening, but I think it's an alternative way of managing the irregularities of the fixture and travel by removing the perceived randomness that the current system has by reducing the number of teams and then scheduling everyone to play each other twice H&A

 

[Kwality]

The Foxel cup was independent of the AFL - there was no way a team could move from one competition to the other. Plus there was very little interest from fans of teams who weren't in that competition other than maybe scoping out potential players to poach from the lower leagues. My proposal was for two tiers with relegation/promotion where you could see a team from the other competition facing you the following season or derbies, showdowns not happen because the relevant teams are in opposing competitions

Sure, its wholly unrealistic in terms of funding or possibility of it happening, but I think it's an alternative way of managing the irregularities of the fixture and travel by removing the perceived randomness that the current system has by reducing the number of teams and then scheduling everyone to play each other twice H&A

every bit as unrealistic ... 2nd tier wont pull a crowd & there is no funding to support it. Its a 2nd rate product.