Society/Culture Support for Big Australia falls dramatically.

[Bombermania]

Bullshit. It's both.

Irrigating for rice, cotton and fruit in the hottest country on earth. Which idiots let farmers kill our river system. More people makes the demand on dams and other water sources grow too. It's bereft of any logic to grow a big Australia.

Craven is right, there is enough water but it has been poorly managed.

1) Now that Melbourne and Sydney have desal plants then the water in those cities reservoirs could be reallocated to where it is needed.

2) Rice and cotton shouldn't be grown in the Murray Darling basin.

3) Northern Victoria and Southern NSW are ideal climates for fruit growing and have not been the problem.

3) A large percentage of Australia's farm production is for export markets so the environmental problems would still exist, Landcare identified many of the problems in the early 1990s when Australia's population was around 10 million less.

 

[Chubberson]

Just over 30 years ago we'd visit the Coorong saltwater wetlands, not far from where we lived for a while and it was amazing. Upstream irrigation has completely ruined it, yet we hear nothing in the National news about it over here. Only about the algal bloom that killed a heap of fish in the poor eastern states.

Take your heads outta your arses, farming irrigation has probably irreversibly damaged the Coorong wetlands because of Eastern water mis-management yet we have water quotas enforced here to fix it, which is no where near enough to save it and people are wanting a bigger Australia.

When a local steel mill enforces 10percent pay cuts to the workers to stay afloat, do you see them crying about the drought? Albeit a fiscal drought. Begging for hand outs. But when times are good, they roll around in the land cruiser 4WD's and boats at their shacks, slapping greenbackers on the bar, piss off. If it's not sustainable practice, get off the land, simple.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Just over 30 years ago we'd visit the Coorong saltwater wetlands, not far from where we lived for a while and it was amazing. Upstream irrigation has completely ruined it, yet we hear nothing in the National news about it over here. Only about the algal bloom that killed a heap of fish in the poor eastern states.

Take your heads outta your arses, farming irrigation has probably irreversibly damaged the Coorong wetlands because of Eastern water mis-management yet we have water quotas enforced here to fix it, which is no where near enough to save it and people are wanting a bigger Australia.

When a local steel mill enforces 10percent pay cuts to the workers to stay afloat, do you see them crying about the drought? Albeit a fiscal drought. Begging for hand outs. But when times are good, they roll around in the land cruiser 4WD's and boats at their shacks, slapping greenbackers on the bar, piss off. If it's not sustainable practice, get off the land, simple.

Yeah, that's a pretty simplistic argument that only shows your dislike of farmers overall.
Your state has commissioned a Royal Commission, which I applaud, and it may also be spread to water management practices in NSW and QLD, which I also applaud. In my opinion it should be a Federally driven Royal Commission, but too many big wheels have too much to lose.
But to come in here and just brand all farmers as bastards is just as stupid as branding all blackfellas of being drunk child molesters, or all Muslims being terrorists.
Again, there is enough water, however it is where that water goes when our rivers run, where it is stored, how it is harvested...a whole heap of things to consider before you get out that broad brush and vilify all of us.

 

[Chubberson]

I didn't say your all bastards, but you do all live in massive social echo chambers.

Generally in small towns or isolated on large properties, all Liberal voters and not too much care for anyone outside of a 100km radius. Hence the state of the river system and I fully agree, that it is eastern shiny arse incompetence (lobbied by voters) that has lead to the river being irreversibly damaged. Growing the country will just make it worse.

 

[its free real estate]

The MDB is the canary in the coal mine. What is happening there will repeat in the major cities’ water supplies in 50 years if population growth and climate change continues.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Generally in small towns or isolated on large properties, all Liberal voters and not too much care for anyone outside of a 100km radius. Hence the state of the river system.

That is definitely the dumbest thing that I have ever seen written on the internet.
And, just quietly, it is pretty f***ing offensive.
You have no idea whatsoever.

 

[Craven Morehead]

The MDB is the canary in the coal mine. What is happening there will repeat in the major cities’ water supplies in 50 years if population growth and climate change continues.

I would definitely agree with that under the current circumstances.
Water security is widely acknowledged as the next trigger for a truly global war.
Hence my issue with the current FIRB guidelines.

 

[Bombermania]

The MDB is the canary in the coal mine. What is happening there will repeat in the major cities’ water supplies in 50 years if population growth and climate change continues.

Depends on how it is manage, take Friday's expected hot day, the energy regulator and companies are talking up the odds of power blackouts, however that is due to mismanagement because on such a hot sunny day roof top solar would be working overtime and the existing coal power stations would be able to support the larger industrial plants without any risk of blackouts.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Depends on how it is manage, take Friday's expected hot day, the energy regulator and companies are talking up the odds of power blackouts, however that is due to mismanagement because on such a hot sunny day roof top solar would be working overtime and the existing coal power stations would be able to support the larger industrial plants without any risk of blackouts.

What?

 

[Bombermania]

What?

Considering how hot some places have been, I should have mentioned Melbourne and Victoria.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Considering how hot some places have been, I should have mentioned Melbourne and Victoria.

And you wonder why I just shake my head at you.
Solar doesn't work on heat, it works on light.
The amount of energy produced is dependent upon
a.)The amount, quality and capacity of the panels you have
and
b.) the capacity of the inverter you have screwed to the wall of your house.

Will you just stop FFS!

 

[Bombermania]

And you wonder why I just shake my head at you.
Solar doesn't work on heat, it works on light.
The amount of energy produced is dependent upon
a.)The amount, quality and capacity of the panels you have
and
b.) the capacity of the inverter you have screwed to the wall of your house.

Will you just stop FFS!

I know it works on light, a 43c day in Melbourne will be a sunny day.

 

[Chubberson]

I know it works on light, a 43c day in Melbourne will be a sunny day.

15-30 C is ideal, above 35 and efficiency drops away. 43 will be poo for generating power

 

[Blue1980]

15-30 C is ideal, above 35 and efficiency drops away. 43 will be poo for generating power

Worse than at a lower temperature but today I generated the same with my panels as Tuesday when it was only just over 30.

So you can still generate a lot of power it’s just optimum is at a lower temperature.

 

[Bombermania]

15-30 C is ideal, above 35 and efficiency drops away. 43 will be poo for generating power

Worse than at a lower temperature but today I generated the same with my panels as Tuesday when it was only just over 30.

So you can still generate a lot of power it’s just optimum is at a lower temperature.

This doesn't surprise me but then my comment wasn't about the temperature but that it would be a sunny day.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

A few examples

Soil and crop sensors

More farm equipment today is being outfitted with smart sensors that can read everything from plant health and water needs in the crop to nitrogen levels in the soil. The sensors then enable on-the-go application of inputs based on real-time field conditions.

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=3

Biologicals

Expect to see more biological pest control and growth enhancements as farmers look for more environmentally friendly and cost-efficient crop inputs. Advanced technologies, such as high-throughput screening, are also helping companies to quickly multiply beneficial organisms, thus driving development of new biologicals.

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=7

Hyper precision

Precision agriculture technologies are becoming more robust and more precise, ushering in an era of hyper precision.

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=8

Automated grain off-loading

Navigation systems that automatically guide grain carts alongside combines to improve on-the-go cart filling may be just around the corner. The same concept also could soon be in play with forage-harvesting systems

“These systems will make it easier to fill a grain cart or wagon automatically,” says John Fulton, a precision agriculture specialist at Auburn University. “I think a 10 to 15% improvement in harvest efficiency through improved off-loading is achievable. It may be even higher for some folks. Improved efficiency on that scale could have a tremendous impact financially.”

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=9

Drought-resistance traits

The decades of work to develop drought-resistant plants are finally producing results. The first corn hybrids marketed for drought conditions are now being sold. These hybrids use natural gene selection and are targeted to the western Corn Belt where water is a key limiting factor. Companies promise yields will be more stable with these hybrids.

https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-equipment/20-technologies-changing-agriculture/gallery?slide=19

These are just some of the technologies that will in time improve the productive farm capacity enabling farmers to increase farm production without having the push the land to the extremes as is sometimes the case today.

What if it doesn't rain a single drop?

There has been and continues to be huge resistance to GM crops from both farmers and more importantly consumers.

 

[Admiral Byng]

1) Now that Melbourne and Sydney have desal plants then the water in those cities reservoirs could be reallocated to where it is needed.

How about irrigators pay for their own damn desal plants and pay full cost price for the water through licence fees.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I think there is a potentially bigger impact on housing than there is on employment because with employment it really depends on the type of work being sought, if its construction or service related then a growing population equals more customers so increased demand and employment.

Problem is most of our migrants are low skilled with little to no capital.

This means a greater supply of workers keeping wages down and more customers pushing the costs of goods and services up.

A business will not pay higher wages just because they have more customers.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Problem is most of our migrants are low skilled with little to no capital.

If you don't mind, I'd like to see something reputable to back that up.
Thanks in advance.
CM.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

This is part of the reason why people don't want a big Australia, too many immigrants don't integrate.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Just over 30 years ago we'd visit the Coorong saltwater wetlands, not far from where we lived for a while and it was amazing. Upstream irrigation has completely ruined it, yet we hear nothing in the National news about it over here. Only about the algal bloom that killed a heap of fish in the poor eastern states.

Take your heads outta your arses, farming irrigation has probably irreversibly damaged the Coorong wetlands because of Eastern water mis-management yet we have water quotas enforced here to fix it, which is no where near enough to save it and people are wanting a bigger Australia.

When a local steel mill enforces 10percent pay cuts to the workers to stay afloat, do you see them crying about the drought? Albeit a fiscal drought. Begging for hand outs. But when times are good, they roll around in the land cruiser 4WD's and boats at their shacks, slapping greenbackers on the bar, piss off. If it's not sustainable practice, get off the land, simple.

That's actually the problem with the Murray Darling management in a nutshell. * you lot I'm all that matters.

You do have a point in that the Coorong wetlands sit at the end of the system and are helpless when affected by exploitation upstream.

Let me try and broaden your horizons a little though. All my life from when I was a young child visits to Menindee were regular. There was fishing in the river and the large regulated Menindee lakes system for recreation.

As I got older one of the first independent activities was camping trips to Kinchega national Park, on the river but a few hundred meters from a sandy bottomed 10 mile across lake with no indeligenous nasties.

When I moved to Sydney for work, it became my Christmas break escape from the stress of the city.

In case you missed the significance this is the area of the fish kill you mock.

In the big picture look at the path of the Darling on a map, perhaps you'll note it is the the only permanent water source for a large area. Towns including my home town are entirely dependent on it. In fact increasingly new pipelines and bores are having to used to provide water to these areas.

Older locals talk of the Darling flow stopping in very bad droughts a couple of times in the 20th century but I'd never seen it until cotton growing started.

Camping at Kinchega is no longer possible with stinking pools of water and the lakes drained to try and maintain flow downstream to the Murray.

It clearly isn't going to get better when the cotton growers upstream make the river flow backwards when they turn their pumps on.

So feel pain for the Coorong wetlands absolutely, but it's only a part of the environmental tragedy.

 

[Admiral Byng]

I've been thinking about the population question a lot in recent times, in a geopolitical sense. In geopolitics population size matters. With our population we are never going to be much more than a vassal state for whichever country has the largest naval fleet in our region. We are an island nation dependent on exports for our prosperity - exports of minerals and agriculture - without which we would be just a busted arse third world country. Most of it goes by sea, so we are completely reliant upon nobody interfering with our sea routes. We simply don't have the navy than can project power beyond our shores to safeguard all of our trade routes - so we ally ourselves to whichever country has the largest navy that can. In the last century this was Britain, and then the USA. Countries which fortunately we shared common cultural ties and vales with. In the future this might become India or China.

One way of avoiding this is rapid population growth. Both to give us greater numbers and more resources to build up our own fleet, and to give us a larger domestic economy so we are not all about exports.

The two problems with rapid population growth is how to redirect growth away form the existing cities into new regions, and secondly how to maintain some sense of national unity and cohesion. I think the latter could be solved by targeting certain countries with a compatible population and forming some kind of immigration express lane for them - the UK, the USA, maybe the Philippines - make it easier for them to apply.

The first problem is the tricky one. Right now an extra 10 million people would mean at least 5 million extra in Sydney - which just would not work out. We have to start building new cities from the ground up. I reckon the states and the way they are set up is the big problem here, just too set in a pattern to allow any form of regional development outside the capitals. My solution is the set up new Federal territories and get them competing to attract businesses and residents. I don't even mind having privately owned cities, which could be run during the set-up phase for 15-25 years before they get normalised. A bit like company towns or mining towns, but these would be focused on growth, and economic diversity and so forth.

Or we can just accept forever being a vassal state and fighting in other peoples' wars in return for ghosting behind their naval strength,

 

[Mike Smyth]

It's irrelevant what the people of Australia want. Both Liberal and Labor want a big Australia so we are getting it regardless. In a perfect Democracy a decision as imortant as this should go to the vote.

 

[tandino]

This is part of the reason why people don't want a big Australia, too many immigrants don't integrate.

If Mark Latham came up to me I would pretend not to speak English.

 

[Admiral Byng]

It's irrelevant what the people of Australia want. Both Liberal and Labor want a big Australia so we are getting it regardless. In a perfect Democracy a decision as imortant as this should go to the vote.

Defence, national security, foreign affairs, long term economic planning, land use and urban development are all part of the usual domain of elected governments. That is what we elect governments for.