The 2015 Attendance Thread

[gaelictiogar]

A fairly average crowd at Ethihad.
Plenty of Crows fans too with. a Saturday timeslot and school holidays. It will be interesting to see how Collingwoods crowds hold up this year if their form continues to plateau. It's been many years since we have seen what the Pies crowds are like when a sense if belief drops away. We saw it late last year to some extent. The league will be hoping they beat the Saints next week.

Reasonable crowd at the G, thought it would definitely start with a 5. Decent all the same. Bit of a burst balloon today for those hoping the Tiger conveyance was on it's way.

Tassieboy called it "par" and you say "average" Dave. It was neither.

It was a poor turnout for a Colllingwood coming off a Round 1 win on the road.

Context:

In 9 home games V Adelaide in the decade 2005/14 Collinwood averaged 42,919.
In all their Docklands games V Adelaide the average before Saturday was 39,485.

The attendance was almost 10,000 off the average for the previous decade and about 6,000 off the average for he fixture at the stadium.

As you say for the first time in several years Collinwood are up against reduced expectations......indications are that these reduced expectations are feeding into a substantial weakening in turnout if not membership sales.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Pies even in there very poor years in the late 90's and 2004-2005 would attract 26-35,000 if their own fans.

Today's 33,000 was about par what collingwood get at Etihad. At the mcg you would add an extra 10,000

Collingwood's average attendance at the Dome V Adelaide going into the game ( 39,485 ) was exactly 5,714 more than tuned up on Saturday.....the attendance was about 15% short of average at the stadium.

2005/14 average in 5 games at the G 46,523.
2005/14 average in 4 at the Dome 38,849.

the game was about 15% off average.

It is perfectly normal, indeed unavoidable, for reduced expectations to feed into reduced turnout.

 

[Kwality]

Yes, but we know Melbourne clubs don't usually draw more than 30k of their own supporters when they aren't going great. That's just reality. Collingwood aren't immune.

- Collingwood roughly draw 29-35k

- Essendon roughly draw 26-32k

- Carlton roughly draw - 24-30k

- Richmond and Hawthorn are difficult to weigh up as there's great fluctuations.

An observation, no published numbers I can offer, the numbers supporting the away sides are stagnant at best, potentially fans are spending their footy dollars on a membership.

 

[Kwality]

Well, no, posters like you continually have a crack at other clubs for not being able to pull crowds and for relying on away game supporters to bump up crowd numbers when the unequal fixture is raised. Look at Collingwood 80k members give or take and only 33k to today's game against the Crows (with a decent contingent of Crows supporters). West Coast have the whole state to themselves this week, no other AFL games in town, had Friday night billing and playing a club with traditionally decent support in WA - was also their first home game for the year - yet could only draw 35k.

Melbourne got 27k against Gold Coast last week so I reckon we're actually not doing too bad really and some of these arguments about crowd numbers being used to rig the fixture probably need more scrutiny.

Bums on seats & $s is a problem for some clubs, many of whom hide behind the FIXturing - Melbournes 27k converts into lots less dollars than West Coasts crowd, thats the problem YOU have Demon, wake up instead of making foolish comparisons that are the equivalent of comparing a kilo of gold with a kilo of rhubarb.
Yes the WA business model leaves the Melbourne model for dead, we all know that. We also know many Victorians arent able to consider what needs to be done to fix their problem - take Melbourne footy club, it gets handouts from both the AFL & the Cricket Club, has invested in pokies to support its broken footy model, & still YOU are crying Demon.
Remember Demon its you that is cheering about the 27k Melbourne crowd.

 

[Kwality]

300 tickets were left to the West Coast game. Not as in a solid bay of seats. 300 single tickets scattered around the ground.

No, seriously, if you haven't been to a game at Subiaco, head on out early and just watch the interactions around you. It is chock full of members who have been members for at least the last ten years, usually the last fifteen or twenty; in the same spot; with the same neighbours; interrupted only by passing away of old age. It is flat out weird. I was in there (in $70 Premium seats which are, I'll have you note, wooden benches from the 70s, in a ground where amenities are free standing brick structures squeezed into cramped concourses that fit two men across), and each person with a member lanyard was 40+ and they knew everyone in their area, said hi to people from all over the bay, knew everyone's names, asked about everyone's kids. I mean parts of the ground are starting to develop subcultures due to constant familiarity, as far as I can tell. And most of these old goats who cannot attend don't put the resale seats up because they don't computer, because they're still used to computers being things that sit in warehouses and stop old Gerry from winning the war.

The West Coast Eagles home crowd has gotten WEIRD. Flat out weird. I mean just check the membership threads, one of the largest adult/concession access membership bases, yet fewest junior memberships in the whole league.

Same situation at Geelong home games. The expansion at Geelong is planned to address the seating issue just as it is with the new stadium in Perth.

Junior numbers are academic, Dad pays for the kids, in a sold out stadium its a gift to the club, at the MCG you can take the kids & the Hawks faithful do just that.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Bums on seats & $s is a problem for some clubs, many of whom hide behind the FIXturing - Melbournes 27k converts into lots less dollars than West Coasts crowd, thats the problem YOU have Demon, wake up instead of making foolish comparisons that are the equivalent of comparing a kilo of gold with a kilo of rhubarb.
Yes the WA business model leaves the Melbourne model for dead, we all know that. We also know many Victorians arent able to consider what needs to be done to fix their problem - take Melbourne footy club, it gets handouts from both the AFL & the Cricket Club, has invested in pokies to support its broken footy model, & still YOU are crying Demon.
Remember Demon its you that is cheering about the 27k Melbourne crowd.

Try to show a bit more respect and regard for the clubs which over a century built the competition that your club was invited into not long ago.

Melbourne footy club, like all Victorian clubs, built the league your club was parachuted into.

WCE criticising Melbourne is like a grandson criticising a grandfather....it is usually wrongheaded and always disrespectful. There is no "WA model". There is a two club state. Just as there is no SA model. There is another two club state. If Victoria did the same we could talk about the "Vic model" but we would have an 8 team league !!! with the Richmond/Essendon/Melbourne/Norf/Saints combo with 200,000 members.

Is that what we wan?

 

[Hawkk]

In fairness WA football has some of the richest history in the competition - West Perth and East Fremantle have just as much history and culture as any club in Victoria...and they were sort of screwed over by the shift to the AFL

The VFL / NFL could have done things much better to perserve the history of Australian Football...

 

[fabulousphil]

300 tickets were left to the West Coast game. Not as in a solid bay of seats. 300 single tickets scattered around the ground.

No, seriously, if you haven't been to a game at Subiaco, head on out early and just watch the interactions around you. It is chock full of members who have been members for at least the last ten years, usually the last fifteen or twenty; in the same spot; with the same neighbours; interrupted only by passing away of old age. It is flat out weird. I was in there (in $70 Premium seats which are, I'll have you note, wooden benches from the 70s, in a ground where amenities are free standing brick structures squeezed into cramped concourses that fit two men across), and each person with a member lanyard was 40+ and they knew everyone in their area, said hi to people from all over the bay, knew everyone's names, asked about everyone's kids. I mean parts of the ground are starting to develop subcultures due to constant familiarity, as far as I can tell. And most of these old goats who cannot attend don't put the resale seats up because they don't computer, because they're still used to computers being things that sit in warehouses and stop old Gerry from winning the war.

The West Coast Eagles home crowd has gotten WEIRD. Flat out weird. I mean just check the membership threads, one of the largest adult/concession access membership bases, yet fewest junior memberships in the whole league.

LOL, you made me laugh, it's true.

been saying this for years, it will not change a hell of a lot with the new stadium.

We need a third team, so people can experience live AFL football.

I am aware of at least 5 people who only have Eagles memberships because they have been handed down through the family.

In reality there are 40,000 people on the Eagles waiting list

No one will ever give up a Eagles membership (seat)

 

[gaelictiogar]

In fairness WA football has some of the richest history in the competition - West Perth and East Fremantle have just as much history and culture as any club in Victoria...and they were sort of screwed over by the shift to the AFL

The VFL / NFL could have done things much better to perserve the history of Australian Football...

Perhaps but here we are where we are and it is OK lecturing the Victorian clubs from the comfort and ease of a 2 team state but what do they want? An 8 team league with 2 each from Vic SA and WA plus a Qld and NSW? Because that is the alternative to keeping the smaller Vic clubs going.

 

[Kwality]

Try to show a bit more respect and regard for the clubs which over a century built the competition that your club was invited into not long ago.

Melbourne footy club, like all Victorian clubs, built the league your club was parachuted into.

WCE criticising Melbourne is like a grandson criticising a grandfather....it is usually wrongheaded and always disrespectful. There is no "WA model". There is a two club state. Just as there is no SA model. There is another two club state. If Victoria did the same we could talk about the "Vic model" but we would have an 8 team league !!! with the Richmond/Essendon/Melbourne/Norf/Saints combo with 200,000 members.

Is that what we wan?

The Eagles paid to join the national comp, the old VFL clubs took the bag of gold (yep, p155d it wherever) & you try to claim some level of superiority, OK with that, you want respect given not earned.

There is a WA model Tiger ( its not just a 2 club model), based on 2 clubs in a traditional footy state (wasnt the Tigers last Premiership Cup held up by a West Australian, pre draft, I remember Balmey debuting as a schoolkid for Subi), a Stadium deal that puts money back into the game, sold out stadium seating at higher prices,

versus

the Vic model, more properly the Melbourne model (Geelong have changed their model since Brian Cook took up the reins well aware of the WA model),
reliant on pokies, suffocated by stadium deals that send money by the bucket loads out of the game, with stadium managers competing for membership with the clubs, competing with clubs for sponsorship/facilities, competition from the AFL Members Club*, trying to address a crowds issue in terms of what worked in State League days and battling to compare membership numbers with sold out season seating.

Happy for you to deny these models all you like, you clearly acknowledge there is a difference.

As for the grandfather/grandson analogy you need take it beyond respect, at some the new generation step into the engine room and the older generation fall back, thats the reality of your analogy as well you know and its not about respect for one minute.

* AFL Members Club: there was a WA equivalent, a dedicated grandstand at Subi, competing with Subiaco Football Club. It went the way of the dodo, whereas in Melbourne, this relic of a previous era is alive & well. Compare that with Geelong, no room for this relic.
Interesting to watch SANFL membership in the SA model.

 

[Tassieboy]

Collingwood's average attendance at the Dome V Adelaide going into the game ( 39,485 ) was exactly 5,714 more than tuned up on Saturday.....the attendance was about 15% short of average at the stadium.

2005/14 average in 5 games at the G 46,523.
2005/14 average in 4 at the Dome 38,849.

the game was about 15% off average.

It is perfectly normal, indeed unavoidable, for reduced expectations to feed into reduced turnout.

Thanks for the stats GT.

I was just having a look at how some of the other bigger clubs draw against Adelaide at Docklands this century:

Essendon

• 34,626 (2000)
• 38,816 (2001)
• 40,322 (2002)
• 35,010 (2007)
• 32,184 (2008)
• 39,458 (2009)
• 30,948 (2014)

Average = 35,909

Carlton

• 27,504 (2007)
• 42,356 (2009)
• 37,607 (2011)
• 35,917 (2012)

Average* = 35,846

Carlton played a couple of games at Princes Park and in 2013 (44,711) and 2014 (32,419) played Adelaide at the MCG.

Richmond

• 32,959 (2000)
• 23,355 (2002)
• 25,267 (2004)
• 27,092 (2005)
• 24,461 (2006)

Average* = 26,626.80

* Richmond haven't played Adelaide at Docklands recently and it's not their home ground. In their games at the MCG they've had a big crowd (43,615 in 2013) and a shocking crowd (19,226 in 2010).

 

[Kwality]

Perhaps but here we are where we are and it is OK lecturing the Victorian clubs from the comfort and ease of a 2 team state but what do they want? An 8 team league with 2 each from Vic SA and WA plus a Qld and NSW? Because that is the alternative to keeping the smaller Vic clubs going.

We are here & now, how do we go forward? Certainly not by denying the strengths of what we have and addressing the weaknesses.

 

[gaelictiogar]

We are here & now, how do we go forward? Certainly not by denying the strengths of what we have and addressing the weaknesses.

I accept your point kwality and yes there are improvements that can be made but perhaps you would get a better hearing if you were not so dismissive of Victoria.

Melbourne is a cockpit of battling tribes in footy terms and it has to be recognised as that and without the Melbourne rivalries the league would be hugely lacking in excitement.

 

[Oneiros]

LOL, you made me laugh, it's true.

been saying this for years, it will not change a hell of a lot with the new stadium.

We need a third team, so people can experience live AFL football.

I am aware of at least 5 people who only have Eagles memberships because they have been handed down through the family.

In reality there are 40,000 people on the Eagles waiting list

No one will ever give up a Eagles membership (seat)

Have heard of the phenomenon myself. They actually are starting to become heirlooms.

 

[fabulousphil]

Have heard of the phenomenon myself. They actually are starting to become heirlooms.

i have a couple of mates who are Eagles members, if the Eagles are going to sh1t i usually get a phone call towards the end of the season offering me tickets, some of them are pretty good seats and sometimes i will take the offer up, i am always amazed at how much of an outsider i feel when the rest of the people around me are talking about kids, schools, trips to Bali etc, they have obviously known each other for many many years and are almost family.

I imagine the next home game they will probably ask my mate where he was, who was i etc etc

It is actually a good thing as at the end of the day sport is an equalizer and can be a pleasant social setting but it is funny.

I remain convinced that we need a 3rd team ...... blah blah blah

East Perth combine with West Perth would be perfect, we have Fremantle team, we have for all intents and purposes a Western Suburbs team, now we need a blue collar Eastern and Northern suburbs team

 

[Kwality]

I accept your point kwality and yes there are improvements that can be made but perhaps you would get a better hearing if you were not so dismissive of Victoria.

Melbourne is a cockpit of battling tribes in footy terms and it has to be recognised as that and without the Melbourne rivalries the league would be hugely lacking in excitement.

I take your point Tiger, given I live in Vic I'm well aware the entitlement vein runs strong. I am not at all dismissive of the powerful rivalries nor am I rooted in yesteryear.

 

[dave10]

Tassieboy called it "par" and you say "average" Dave. It was neither.

It was a poor turnout for a Colllingwood coming off a Round 1 win on the road.

Context:

In 9 home games V Adelaide in the decade 2005/14 Collinwood averaged 42,919.
In all their Docklands games V Adelaide the average before Saturday was 39,485.

The attendance was almost 10,000 off the average for the previous decade and about 6,000 off the average for he fixture at the stadium.

As you say for the first time in several years Collinwood are up against reduced expectations......indications are that these reduced expectations are feeding into a substantial weakening in turnout if not membership sales.

Agree. I was trying to be diplomatic. Since mud last year the Pies attendances have come off substancially and we are seeing signs even Collingwood are not imune from attendance drops. 33,700 was pretty average given school holidays and a strong Crows contingent of support.

There have been many on here in re past trumpeting the huge gap between Collingwood and the rest. Easy to day this when they were winning flags and a top 4 fancy for around 10 years at a time when other big clubs were mediocre at best. Early days, but we may see the Pies numbers struggle to maintain top of the mountain status this year. Conversely, many others on here have said that when all is equal on field, there's not as much of a gap between Collingwood and the rest as sone would make you believe.

The attendance at Ethihad yesterday, and last year show you that theres a healthy number of supporters that only go to MCG home games. Essendon supporters have been saying this for tyars.

 

[fabulousphil]

Agree. I was trying to be diplomatic. Since mud last year the Pies attendances have come off substancially and we are seeing signs even Collingwood are not imune from attendance drops. 33,700 was pretty average given school holidays and a strong Crows contingent of support.

There have been many on here in re past trumpeting the huge gap between Collingwood and the rest. Easy to day this when they were winning flags and a top 4 fancy for around 10 years at a time when other big clubs were mediocre at best. Early days, but we may see the Pies numbers struggle to maintain top of the mountain status this year. Conversely, many others on here have said that when all is equal on field, there's not as much of a gap between Collingwood and the rest as sone would make you believe.

The attendance at Ethihad yesterday, and last year show you that theres a healthy number of supporters that only go to MCG home games. Essendon supporters have been saying this for tyars.

I wonder when the AFL owns etihad that the AFL will attempt a MCC members type scenario which will probably increase attendances.

MCC members will turn up for big games.

 

[Rob]

The AFL happens to agree, year on year with their released membership figures.

Allowing for many of them to be 3 game members who are there for big games against Carlton, essendon, Geelong, hawthorn etc. Allow for another 10,000 AFL members with reserved seating at MCG, plus Collingwood members with MCG reserved seating. allow again for supporters preferences to see their games at the MCG - crowds against Adelaide at the MCG are higher for almost all clubs at the MCG than Etihad.

I wasn't actually questioning their membership figures - although other than the 3 game members, wouldn't other members have had access to Etihad? AFL members have a small reserve there, but if they've got Collingwood club supprot then they'd get into the GA section anyway. I realise crowds are generally higher for games at the MCG, but i'd imagine that's more to do with the 100,000 MCG members.

It was more that they always proclaim how massive a club they are. 33k - including 3k or so Crows fans and a couple of thousand medallion club - is pathetic. It's not like West Coast who can legitimately claim that they would have got 50-60,000 on Friday night if capacity wasn't an issue.

 

[Hawkk]

Yes, but we know Melbourne clubs don't usually draw more than 30k of their own supporters when they aren't going great. That's just reality. Collingwood aren't immune.

- Collingwood roughly draw 29-35k

- Essendon roughly draw 26-32k

- Carlton roughly draw - 24-30k

- Richmond and Hawthorn are difficult to weigh up as there's great fluctuations.

Our crowds in Victoria to be fair are difficult to measure given the uniqueness of the Tasmanian agreement (we have 7 home games in Victoria and 13-15 in Melbourne instead of 17-19 games)

That said to say we shift out lower drawing games exclusively to Tasmania is a bit of a myth. Take 2012:

MCG home games:

V Collingwood - 78,466
V Geelong 65,287
V West Coast 50,027
V Brisbane 34,492
V Adelaide 33,527
V GWS - 26,518
V Gold Coast - 23,098

That's just about the commercially unappeasing draw for a Victorian club you can get (in fact take out Collingwood and Geelong and it would be virtually equivalent to a non Victorian clubs draw)

Note the major disparity in numbers between Coll/Geel/WCE v GWS/GC so crowd numbers fluctuate just as much due to the competitiveness of the opposition team as it does how successful the home club is (look at the sub 30k attendances for WCE / Fremantle against GWS)

The worst disparity I've seen (for the Hawks) was last year we drew 73k against the Swans (inflated by Buddy), 44k against Fremantle (GF replay) but then drew 18k and 33k against GWS and St Kilda

That said we haven't been in a position where we haven't 'done great' for a very long time (sure we weren't flash in 2009-10) but we haven't had a really poor period since before 2007...so it'll be interesting to see how many 'hangeroners' stick with us when we drop off again.

The irony is that our crowds against St Kilda and GWS would have likely been much larger if we weren't so strong on field. Supporters crave the unpredictability of a contest...once the result become unpredictable the interest dives (which is why the competition really needs another team from Hawthorn or Sydney to win the flag this year)

 

[Demonic Ascent]

wake up instead of making foolish comparisons that are the equivalent of comparing a kilo of gold with a kilo of rhubarb

Good to see you acknowledge there are differences within the competition that can make some comparisons irrelevant. I'll make sure to remind you of this next time there's a discussion about fixture discrepancies between the Vic clubs and you attempt to make comparisons with some non-Vic clubs.

 

[Kwality]

Good to see you acknowledge there are differences within the competition that can make some comparisons irrelevant. I'll make sure to remind you of this next time there's a discussion about fixture discrepancies between the Vic clubs and you attempt to make comparisons with some non-Vic clubs.

Equally you might acknowledge the problems of one market rather than trying to make the whole competition fund them.

 

[Kwality]

I wonder when the AFL owns etihad that the AFL will attempt a MCC members type scenario which will probably increase attendances.

MCC members will turn up for big games.

Not sure you are on the money here Phil ? The G is a spiritual experience for many supporters.

Will the Medallion Club continue to compete for members with the clubs under AFL ownership? For the sake of the Etihad based clubs I'd hope not, premium seats will keep the cash register turning.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Equally you might acknowledge the problems of one market rather than trying to make the whole competition fund them.

Not trying to make the whole competition fund them, not sure where you got that idea. My main issue is the inequalities in the fixture which impact the affected Vic clubs far more than the non-Vic clubs.

 

[Tassieboy]

Our crowds in Victoria to be fair are difficult to measure given the uniqueness of the Tasmanian agreement (we have 7 home games in Victoria and 13-15 in Melbourne instead of 17-19 games)

That said to say we shift out lower drawing games exclusively to Tasmania is a bit of a myth. Take 2012:

MCG home games:

V Collingwood - 78,466
V Geelong 65,287
V West Coast 50,027
V Brisbane 34,492
V Adelaide 33,527
V GWS - 26,518
V Gold Coast - 23,098

That's just about the commercially unappeasing draw for a Victorian club you can get (in fact take out Collingwood and Geelong and it would be virtually equivalent to a non Victorian clubs draw)

Note the major disparity in numbers between Coll/Geel/WCE v GWS/GC so crowd numbers fluctuate just as much due to the competitiveness of the opposition team as it does how successful the home club is (look at the sub 30k attendances for WCE / Fremantle against GWS)

The worst disparity I've seen (for the Hawks) was last year we drew 73k against the Swans (inflated by Buddy), 44k against Fremantle (GF replay) but then drew 18k and 33k against GWS and St Kilda

That said we haven't been in a position where we haven't 'done great' for a very long time (sure we weren't flash in 2009-10) but we haven't had a really poor period since before 2007...so it'll be interesting to see how many 'hangeroners' stick with us when we drop off again.

The irony is that our crowds against St Kilda and GWS would have likely been much larger if we weren't so strong on field. Supporters crave the unpredictability of a contest...once the result become unpredictable the interest dives (which is why the competition really needs another team from Hawthorn or Sydney to win the flag this year)

I agree with all that mate. I still think because of the Tasmanian deal and fluctuating crowds in Melbourne it's hard to get a read on Hawthorn despite their enormous membership. I could never imagine Essendon drawing 73k against Sydney (although got late-60s in 90s) but I couldn't imagine Essendon only drawing 18k at the MCG against GWS (30,143 in 2013 at Docklands in only home game against GWS)

Richmond are similar, albeit on the back of a sustained lack of success. This is why without the MCC prediction I had no idea what to expect today. Essendon numbers remain relatively consistent and at the G I'd predict 35k+, Hawthorn could draw 20k or 35k too. Hopefully the latter, as I don't want to see another game at Docklands. 72k as the MCC are predicting would be great.