The AFL wants 22 teams. Name your next four.

[terrybull]

But that proposal failed. And that's because there wasnt enough Bulldogs in the merged entity.




Footscray Lions playing at the Western Oval.

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I think the proposal failed because there was no Footscray in their jumper and lost their name. Just got their mascot.

If they had named the club Fitzroy-Footscray and in the first jumper changed the yellow bands to white and the blue to be more Royal then there could be a good chance both supporters be relatively happy.

The mascot does not matter, maybe something new. Or if they play home at Western Oval then the Lions.

 

[Roylion]

I think the proposal failed because there was no Footscray in their jumper and lost their name. Just got their mascot.

So needed more Footscray. "Footscray - Fitzroy Lions" trading as the "Footscray Lions".

The late Ian Ridley said one of his biggest mistakes in negotiating the Melbourne-Hawks merger in 1996 is that Melbourne ignored a key price of advice in that members and supporters see the enduring symbols of their club, their colours, the tradition [things like history, club song etc.] and the club emblem and will reject a merger if there wasn't enough of that retained in the new entity.

 

[terrybull]

So needed more Footscray. "Footscray - Fitzroy Lions" trading as the "Footscray Lions".

The late Ian Ridley said one of his biggest mistakes in negotiating the Melbourne-Hawks merger in 1996 is that Melbourne ignored a key price of advice in that members and supporters see the enduring symbols of their club, their colours, the tradition [things like history, club song etc.] and the club emblem and will reject a merger if there wasn't enough of that retained in the new entity.

I agree

But I can’t see why they can not be traded as Fitzroy-Footscray.

Double names in sports is not that unusual. We got Woodville-West Torrens, Manly-Warringah etc etc
Kinda cool.

 

[Roylion]

I agree

But I can’t see why they can not be traded as Fitzroy-Footscray.

Well they can. It's all about striking a balance. To me 'Footscray Lions' with the FFC monogram retained, the Fitzroy lion and the colours (adding gold to the red and blue of Footscray) keeps enough of the Fitzroy identity while the name Footscray and the home ground at the Western Oval keeps enough of the Footscray identity for Dogs supporters.

The Fitzroy Bulldogs was far too skewed towards Fitzroy which is why there was such resistance which led to ultimate failure.

 

[Coolangatta]

Well they can. It's all about striking a balance. To me 'Footscray Lions' with the FFC monogram retained, the Fitzroy lion and the colours (adding gold to the red and blue of Footscray) keeps enough of the Fitzroy identity while the name Footscray and the home ground at the Western Oval keeps enough of the Footscray identity for Dogs supporters.

The Fitzroy Bulldogs was far too skewed towards Fitzroy which is why there was such resistance which led to ultimate failure.

I know it's wiki and unsourced references aren't reliable but it says, "The merger was arranged in October 1989 to avert the imminent financial collapse of the Footscray Football Club, but was abandoned within three weeks of its announcement, after Footscray supporters raised almost two million dollars and secured sponsorship and funding to ensure their club's solvency and viability into the future."

The article also mentions what you've been saying, too, about how Footscray fans were pissed that the merger was so Fitzroy dominant. Makes me wonder if people would be more open minded about mergers if they were done with a better balance.

 

[1990crow]

I think 20 teams is enough.

19 - Tasmania
20 - Canberra
21 - North relocate to Sunshine Coast and play as North Kangaroos (maintain Melbourne market as secondary).
22 - St Kilda relocate to NT and change white to red (maintain Melbourne market as secondary).
23 - Demons relocate to Perth and become Perth Demons (maintain Melbourne market as secondary).

3 teams in WA
2 teams in SA
3 teams in Queensland
3 teams in NSW/ACT
1 team in Tassie
8 teams in Victoria (7 teams in Melbourne, 1 in Geelong)

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I think 20 teams is enough.

Given the delays and the stadium issues raised by the AFL, I think it will be a long time before we get beyond 20. The entry of Tasmania will most probably lead to team 20, perhaps as early as 2032, to extract more $ from the new broadcasting deal. AFL will then have the struggling Victorian clubs service the secondary regional markets across the country.

 

[1990crow]

Given the delays and the stadium issues raised by the AFL, I think it will be a long time before we get beyond 20. The entry of Tasmania will most probably lead to team 20, perhaps as early as 2032, to extract more $ from the new broadcasting deal. AFL will then have the struggling Victorian clubs service the secondary regional markets across the country.

That's my view as well. I don't think we should be going further than 20 given the chances of team success get decreased with every addition, and the league needs to be careful with quality.
The emerging NSW and Qld markets should be adding more AFL standard players, but I would want to see standard increase from what we have now as it has gone down since we had 16 teams.

10 teams out of 20 being in Victoria is too many, and the league is heavily propping up North, St Kilda and Melbourne. Melbourne's recent success and having the city's name might save them, but North and Saints should be the club's to make way.

Sunshine Coast and NT make sense to expand into eventually, but WA3 does make sense.

 

[troybe]

2nd Geelong team (Grovedale or Lara)
West Melbourne Millers
Altona Vikings
Ballarat Redbacks or Sandhurst Dragons

Not enough representation from the West

 

[1990crow]

2nd Geelong team (Grovedale or Lara)
West Melbourne Millers
Altona Vikings
Ballarat Redbacks or Sandhurst Dragons

Or enough representation from the West

Ohhhh satire.

 

[Tigerlaird]

That's my view as well. I don't think we should be going further than 20 given the chances of team success get decreased with every addition, and the league needs to be careful with quality.
The emerging NSW and Qld markets should be adding more AFL standard players, but I would want to see standard increase from what we have now as it has gone down since we had 16 teams.

10 teams out of 20 being in Victoria is too many, and the league is heavily propping up North, St Kilda and Melbourne. Melbourne's recent success and having the city's name might save them, but North and Saints should be the club's to make way.

Sunshine Coast and NT make sense to expand into eventually, but WA3 does make sense.

20 teams is solid.

 

[Coolangatta]

Best way to achieve 20 teams IMO is:

19. Tasmania Devils (7 Hobart, 4 Launceston)

Move North to Canberra

20. DC Crocodiles (7 Darwin, 4 Cairns)

I disagree with people like Clarkson saying that if you add NT as team 20 you have a fully national competition. I don't think you do until you also represent the ACT and FNQ.

As much as it'd be cool to see more, 20 is a good max number for an elite national comp.

They could always create an AFL second division with clubs from WA, SA, QLD, etc, but without relegation and promotion.

 

[Tigerlaird]

They could always create an AFL second division with clubs from WA, SA, QLD, etc, but without relegation and promotion.

Yeah I want this. They've announced it for A-League.

 

[Rob]

Yeah I want this. They've announced it for A-League.

It would be an abysmal failure. I suspect the soccer version will be as well (although it might have an initial novelty effect).

 

[Coolangatta]

It would be an abysmal failure. I suspect the soccer version will be as well (although it might have an initial novelty effect).

Yeah, it's hard to see a club like West Coast with their gazillion supporters taking any interest in them being in the second division as they battle for promotion. Big clubs would lose interest, members, supporters, and viewers if they were stuck in the seconds. Although, West Coast might as well have been playing in the WAFL the way they played last season, it might have made the season more tolerable for the fans.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

That's my view as well. I don't think we should be going further than 20 given the chances of team success get decreased with every addition, and the league needs to be careful with quality.
The emerging NSW and Qld markets should be adding more AFL standard players, but I would want to see standard increase from what we have now as it has gone down since we had 16 teams.

10 teams out of 20 being in Victoria is too many, and the league is heavily propping up North, St Kilda and Melbourne. Melbourne's recent success and having the city's name might save them, but North and Saints should be the club's to make way.

Sunshine Coast and NT make sense to expand into eventually, but WA3 does make sense.

I’m unconvinced about the potential of the Sunny Coast as a future AFL market. It’s half the size of the Gold Coast with an even smaller AFL culture. For example, there are only 4 senior footy clubs based on the entire Sunny Coast, while a city like Cairns can sustain 7 with 200,000 fewer people. Most locals who follow footy on the SC support the Lions who play games only 100kms away, so they have reasonable access already.

The NRL’s new Dolphins club are marketing themselves as a team for Brisbane’s Northern corridor and the Sunny Coast; however, they are only playing one game on the coast this season. It will be interesting to see how that relationship develops.

 

[Coolangatta]

I’m unconvinced about the potential of the Sunny Coast as a future AFL market. It’s half the size of the Gold Coast with an even smaller AFL culture. For example, there are only 4 senior footy clubs based on the entire Sunny Coast, while a city like Cairns can sustain 7 with 200,000 fewer people. Most locals who follow footy on the SC support the Lions who play games only 100kms away, so they have reasonable access already.

The NRL’s new Dolphins club are marketing themselves as a team for Brisbane’s Northern corridor and the Sunny Coast; however, they are only playing one game on the coast this season. It will be interesting to see how that relationship develops.

Interesting.

What markets do you see as good potential?

 

[Canberra Pear]

I’m unconvinced about the potential of the Sunny Coast as a future AFL market. It’s half the size of the Gold Coast with an even smaller AFL culture. For example, there are only 4 senior footy clubs based on the entire Sunny Coast, while a city like Cairns can sustain 7 with 200,000 fewer people. Most locals who follow footy on the SC support the Lions who play games only 100kms away, so they have reasonable access already.

The NRL’s new Dolphins club are marketing themselves as a team for Brisbane’s Northern corridor and the Sunny Coast; however, they are only playing one game on the coast this season. It will be interesting to see how that relationship develops.

I think the potential for the Sunshine Coast is that the AFL has a chance to be first major sport there.

I expect the Dolphins will treat the Sunshine Coast like the Giants treat Canberra, so they won't have a real team of their own.

The Sunshine Coast wouldn't be ready for Team 20 in the AFL, but by the time the 21st and 22nd teams come around (if it gets to that), the SC would have 600-700k (including Noosa).

With the NRL likely placing Perth, NZ2, Brisbane 3, and Adelaide higher on the expansion priorities, an AFL team there could have a 20-year headstart.

Like you said, grassroots still isn't amazing, but the AFL has decades to lay the groundwork.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Interesting.

What markets do you see as good potential?

Like most I think Tassie and Canberra are no-brainers. WA3 will be too, although I appreciate that it might be a little while until a particular region of Perth/ SW WA emerges as an obvious candidate. Other areas like NT and NQ can be better developed as secondary markets, but don’t see them as capable of hosting a full time club for a long time.

 

[Coolangatta]

Like most I think Tassie and Canberra are no-brainers. WA3 will be too, although I appreciate that it might be a little while until a particular region of Perth/ SW WA emerges as an obvious candidate. Other areas like NT and NQ can be better developed as secondary markets, but don’t see them as capable of hosting a full time club for a long time.

So maybe something like:

19. Tasmania 2027
20. Canberra 2033-6

20 years

21. SW WA 2053-6
22. NT or NQLD 2070-3

15-20 years

23. NT or NQLD (or someone else if combined northern side). Northern side might call end to expansion at 22 teams?

24. ???

I guess the AFL will signal their long term intentions if we see them start playing games in Newcastle, Sunshine Coast etc next decade.

Don’t be surprised if they ignore WA in favour of QLD and NSW though to gain rugby territory ground. I think they want NT eventually if viable, so I’m guessing (not necessarily in this order):

Tasmania, Canberra, NT, 2 more NSW teams, NQLD team. Probably combined northern side so they can add a third Sydney team.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

I think the potential for the Sunshine Coast is that the AFL has a chance to be first major sport there.

I expect the Dolphins will treat the Sunshine Coast like the Giants treat Canberra, so they won't have a real team of their own.

The Sunshine Coast wouldn't be ready for Team 20 in the AFL, but by the time the 21st and 22nd teams come around (if it gets to that), the SC would have 600-700k (including Noosa).

With the NRL likely placing Perth, NZ2, Brisbane 3, and Adelaide higher on the expansion priorities, an AFL team there could have a 20-year headstart.

Like you said, grassroots still isn't amazing, but the AFL has decades to lay the groundwork.

You have a reasonable point there about getting in first, not sure if the risk v reward is strong enough to justify it though. I guess my concerns are that it’s taking Gold Coast a long time to become established with 700k population and a significantly stronger footy culture (granted the club was run poorly at the start of its existence).

Population projections for the Sunny Coast are to reach 500k by 2041, so it’s a long way off even being on the radar. SE QLD won’t need a 3rd club for a long time, but if/when it does, there could even be stronger arguments for a 2nd Brisbane club (e.g. based in the Moreton Bay/Ipswich regions) since they will be able to utilise a rebuilt Gabba and serve a much bigger population base. Like I said, there’s no rush to expand to the SC since it’s only 100kms away from Brisbane and the transport links between the cities are improving. The Lions and Suns both need to be rock-solid off field before a 3rd team can be contemplated.

 

[Coolangatta]

Just an idea for a combined northern team: 7 home games in Darwin and 4 in Cairns means a lot of travel. If you had Melbourne sell a home game against them in Alice Springs and St Kilda and North sell a home game each against them in Townsville you’d reduce the impact.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Just an idea for a combined northern team: 7 home games in Darwin and 4 in Cairns means a lot of travel. If you had Melbourne sell a home game against them in Alice Springs and St Kilda and North sell a home game each against them in Townsville you’d reduce the impact.

That’s a really cool idea and it would certainly help the case for a Northern Aus club. In regards to your previous post, your projections definitely could eventuate. Although, I’m not even sold on the need for the league to expand past 20 yet - it seems like a good number. With 10 Victorian clubs there’s always the possibility that contraction could occur and then the best placed secondary market steps up to fill a void and maintain a 20-team comp.

 

[Coolangatta]

That’s a really cool idea and it would certainly help the case for a Northern Aus club. In regards to your previous post, your projections definitely could eventuate. Although, I’m not even sold on the need for the league to expand past 20 yet - it seems like a good number. With 10 Victorian clubs there’s always the possibility that contraction could occur and then the best placed secondary market steps up to fill a void and maintain a 20-team comp.

Yeah, not bad.

Tbh as long as NT-FNQ and Canberra can get in I don't care if there's anymore expansion after that, whether it's 20 or 22 teams.

20 team comp would probably be better for quality and chances of winning a flag but that would mean one Vic club burns to to the ground or moves to Canberra or the Giants fail and reboot in Canberra (I'd prefer NT-FNQ to have their own unique team with Indigenous flag colours).

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Yeah, not bad.

Tbh as long as NT-FNQ and Canberra can get in I don't care if there's anymore expansion after that, whether it's 20 or 22 teams.

20 team comp would probably be better for quality and chances of winning a flag but that would mean one Vic club burns to to the ground or moves to Canberra or the Giants fail and reboot in Canberra (I'd prefer NT-FNQ to have their own unique team with Indigenous flag colours).

It’ll be quite some time before the NT or NQ is ready so until then they just need to have better outcomes as secondary markets. A long-term arrangement like the Giants in Canberra would be good for now.

I really think WA3 is inevitable too. Especially if the NRL expand there. Imagine a new NRL club having to compete against 3 AFL clubs in Perth, it would surely blow them out of the water. It’ll be interesting to see what happens in this space because if the NRL dither with team #18 then I can see a scenario where the AFL could push ahead with WA3 to make the NRL’s task that much harder.

I don’t know WA well enough so maybe I’ve got it wrong. Would there be enough expat Poms, Kiwis and South Africans in Perth to make it worthwhile irrespective of what the AFL does?