Cunnington Cartel
All Australian
- Nov 18, 2022
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- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
As in the Gulf of Carpentaria, which is the gulf between NT and North Qld.never heard of carpentaria
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As in the Gulf of Carpentaria, which is the gulf between NT and North Qld.never heard of carpentaria
I live in Adelaide's northern suburbs and as a massive North Adelaide fan I would rather get a lobotomy than support Central Districts.Merge the Western Bulldogs with Centrals.
Centrals are by far the most successful SANFL club of the 21st century. They're the only SANFL club north of Gepps Cross, and the North is booming. Playford, Gawler, Barossa and Adelaide Plains councils are all going to grow by more than 50% in just the next 20 years.
I'm mostly joking about a merger, but a team for Northern Adelaide would be amazing for the area. I grew up in the Centrals zone, had a few friends play in the juniors, and went to a bunch of the grand finals. I remember there were always French flags painted on to all the roundabouts during those premiership years.
As a poorer area, there's been a lot of focus on getting national-standard facilities in the area. Adelaide United have trained in Playford since 2015, and there's been on-again-off-again plans for an ice arena which would host Adelaide's ice hockey team.
If Adelaide ever got a third team, the North would be my vote.
Bump. I still think adding the territories and last major unrepresented geographical region in Australia is the best option after Tasmania if the stadium gets up. You never know, NQ might become their own state one day and if they do, be the only state without a team.
Team 20: Canberra Rams, playing 9 in Canberra, 2 in Wagga Wagga (2033)
Post-2050
Team 21: Northern Territory Dreamtime, playing 9 in Darwin, 2 in Alice Springs
Team 22 (final ever AFL team): North Queensland Crocodiles, playing 9 in Cairns, 1 each in Townsville and Mackay
I like it. As we've discussed, maybe we could get for Carpentaria; 7 in Cairns, 4 in Darwin, and "away" games against Vic clubs:I’ve previously said that I think 20 is a great number, although 22 clubs would open up a few possibilities. I believe that #20 will be partially determined by the on and off-field health of the Giants and the Suns. The AFL are clearly using Canberra to prop up the Giants and the NT for the Suns.
Ultimately, Sydney and SE QLD are more important strategic markets for the AFL than the territories so using them as secondary markets to facilitate the distribution of academy players, memberships and support to their two weakest clubs makes sense for the time being. The Tassie experience has also highlighted how world class stadiums and training facilities are essential for player retention, maximising crowds and ensuring new franchises are able to compete with the league’s current clubs. These factors prompt several questions that we won’t get answers to until near the end of the 2020’s:
- Does the AFL think the Suns &/or Giants are strong enough to stand on their own two feet?
- Are the governments of the ACT/NT prepared to follow the Tas Gov’s lead by providing a similar (or greater) level of funding for a team of their own? Granted, getting the 20th license will undoubtedly be easier than the 19th.
For either territory, if the answer to one of these questions is “no” then it will make it difficult for them to be included in the next round of expansion. If things pan out this way, then I could see the following events occurring:
Team 20: North Perth - seems to be the most likely 3rd WA team at this stage. The stadium is already there and Arena Joondalup wouldn’t need extensive upgrades to crate a high performance centre. Optus Stadium goes from hosting 2 derbies per season to 6. Hosting 2 derbies per year is a great start for this club’s finances. If they are concerned about low-drawing games then they could even shift 2-3 games per season to somewhere like Bunbury to avoid these games being loss-makers.
Team 21: Canberra-Riverina - 8/9 games in Canberra with 2-3 in Wagga. Joins the league when GWS becomes a bit more financially sustainable and starts producing more local talent through its academy programs in Western Sydney.
Team 22: Carpentaria - 6 Cairns, 4 Darwin and 1 Alice (if based in Cairns) or 5, 5, 1 (if based in Darwin). I can’t see either of these regions being able to support their own club, independently, so a co-location model seems the most workable and sustainable solution. I’d be tempted to base the club in Cairns, instead of Darwin, for a few reasons: player retention, closer to all major Aus cities (except Perth), more likely to attract opposition supporters to games. This club would travel a lot, so wouldn’t worry about playing games in Townsville (maybe just pre-season). Footy isn’t as popular there and the Cowboys are based there permanently anyway so making inroads would be hard.
By that stage, with 22 clubs, the fixture could be set up way better than it currently is. Keep a 23 round season with 11 home, 11 away and 1 gather round. Play every team once (21 rounds) + 2 rivals twice. For example:
Chuck in a wildcard round for a 5-week finals series and we’re pretty much done.
- Sydney - two derbies against GWS and Canberra-Riverina
- Brisbane - GC and Carpentaria
- West Coast - Freo and North Perth
- Adelaide - Port and Tassie
- Vic - against each other.
Couldn’t agree more with everything that you’ve said here. Makes so much sense. The team names look about spot on as well.I like it. As we've discussed, maybe we could get for Carpentaria; 7 in Cairns, 4 in Darwin, and "away" games against Vic clubs:
v Demons @ Alice Springs
v Hawks @ Townsville
v Saints @ Mackay
v Roos @ Karratha
Would like to see the Giants host a game at Newcastle and the Suns at the Sunshine Coast.
North Perth could play two at Joondalup and one at Bunbury; 10 games at Optus, two being "away" games against the Eagles and Dockers.
Not sure about New Zealand as a secondary market.
Suggested names: North Perth Sharks, Canberra-Riverina Rams, Carpentaria Crocs.
Yeah if they went down the conference route then it could look like this with a 22 team, 23 round season.But as we've also discussed, we could go the conference path:
20 teams:
A: Vic East
B: Vic West
C: 3 WA/2 SA or 2 WA/2 SA/1 TAS
D: 2 NSW/2 QLD/1 TAS or 2 NSW/2QLD/1 ACT
Add a team each to C and D when expanding to 22 teams.
With the 23rd team, change conference structure to: 4,4,5,5,5
24 (4,5,5,5,5)
25 (5,5,5,5,5)
26+ (see NFL)
Conference winners do not qualify automatically for top four but they do qualify for finals. If any team has a better W-L record than a conference winner but they do not qualify for the top 8 then they qualify for a playoff, wildcard round for a spot in the finals.
Thanks mate.Couldn’t agree more with everything that you’ve said here. Makes so much sense. The team names look about spot on as well.
Looks good. I think you might be right about the away games for Carpentaria. It’d probably be a 7/4 split if Tasmania succeeds with that model, but it’ll probably be Darwin getting 7 games instead of Cairns.Yeah if they went down the conference route then it could look like this with a 22 team, 23 round season.
2 x Australian Conferences - 6 teams
2 x Victorian Conferences - 5 teams
Play every team in the league once and 2 rivals from conference twice. Since Victorian conferences only have 5 clubs, the second ‘derbies’ for some Victorian clubs will therefore cross over between the two Vic conferences. The clubs that have cross-overs will rotate each year, so there’s variety with who Vic clubs play twice each season.
Australia North Conference (NSW, QLD, ACT, NT)
Victoria East Conference (Eastern Vic)
- Sydney
- GWS (either all in West Sydney or 9 WS, 2 Newcastle if they need a secondary market)
- Canberra-Riverina (8 Canberra, 3 Wagga Wagga)
- Brisbane
- Gold Coast (either all on the GC or 9 Gold Coast, 2 Sunny Coast if they need a secondary market)
- Carpentaria (7 Cairns, 4 Darwin, away games against Vic opposition in Alice Springs, Mackay, and Townsville etc)
Victoria West Conference (Western Vic)
- Collingwood
- Richmond
- Hawthorn
- Melbourne
- St Kilda
Australia South Conference (WA, SA, Tas)
- Geelong
- Essendon
- Carlton Blues
- North Melbourne (9 Melbourne, 2 Bendigo or Albury-Wodonga - if they need a secondary market after Hobart)
- Western Bulldogs (9 Melbourne, 2 Ballarat)
The main issue with the additional games in the top end is that the ‘away’ side (Carpentaria) would have a pretty big advantage with the conditions. Therefore, I’m not sure too many Victorian clubs would be queuing up to host those.
- West Coast
- Fremantle
- North Perth (8 Perth, 2 Joondalup and 1 Bunbury - if they need a secondary market)
- Adelaide
- Port Adelaide
- Tasmania (7 Hobart, 4 Launceston)
The finals system that we’ve discussed before is a must to maintain the integrity of the finals series.
It would be strange if that’s what occurred and they stopped after team 20 because what we’ve proposed here is a lot more ‘complete’. Also, the fixture would be cool. Knowing that your club’s only two double ups of the season are against your local rivals would help those derby games take on extra significance. Particularly towards the end of the season when finals spots are on the line - and potentially conference championships; if that’s the system they settled on.Thanks mate.
I do remember when Canberra Pear asked about a Canberra team, Hutchy said he thinks it’d be northern Australia, but based out of Darwin.
So, even though there’s a good case to be made for Cairns getting most games, it’s probably going to be the other way around if it ever happens.
But he was talking about team 20, which still blows my mind. Surely it’s going to be Canberra or WA3 after Tassie.
I’m not sure there’ll ever be a team 21 if NT/north oz are team 20. Canberra never having a team would s**t me off almost as much as it would the locals.
Gotta start somewhere.Time for an American Division?
Palm Bay, Florida
West Melbourne Florida (some symmetry there with The Demons & Kangaroos)
Cocoa Beach, Florida
Vero Beach, Fl
This list is a bit self serving as these locations are all 30 minutes or less from my house.
I REALLY want to see one of those stadiums!
At 22 teams (if ever) it will probably run as 2 conferences of 11, with 1 interconference game per week to keep 11 games per round. (Play your own conference twice).
Anyway, before we get 22 (if ever) we are going to need team 20. For me there are 3 candidates, WA3, SA3 and Canberra. If anyone gets behind one of these in a big way they have a great shot of getting it. WA have been cool on WA3, if they dont want it they will leave the field open for one of the other 2. (I think if WA3 want it, they will be able to make a compelling case that probably will not be beaten - its theirs to loose I think).
Canberra makes sense, but not sure there is any momentum or structure to push for it.
That leaves SA3. I think the case is a bit thin for SA3, but if SA authorities want it, push for it and go for it they could get team 20 if there are no credible alternatives from WA or Canberra. 6 derby games in Adelaide might have some appeal.
PS: If SA go for it I suspect it may kick WA into action.
Absolutely. The options really open up after 20 if it goes beyond that but it's a two horse race for team 20.I just don't think Adelaide's big enough for a third team.
It wasn't that long ago Port was struggling for crowds and only averaged 20k for the season (I still stand by the tarps as an idea though).
SA3 will be significantly smaller than Port. Port was by far the biggest SANFL team, and would have a minimum 30-year head start in the AFL on any SA3 team. And Port is still only a middle-sized club in the AFL, so SA3 would be tiny.
Adelaide might grow enough for the 21/22 expansion, but I reckon SA3 would really struggle as Team 20.
Absolutely. The options really open up after 20 if it goes beyond that but it's a two horse race for team 20.
Team 20: Canberra, WA3
Team 21-22: Canberra, WA3, SA3, NSW3, QLD3, New Zealand, joint NT-NQ or standalone
Team 23-24: Same as above, perhaps even NSW4 or QLD4
I think we could see 24 teams in our lifetime, 21 and 22 in the 2050s and 23 and 24 in the 2070s. But it could very well be 2060s and 2090s and a 70 year gap as you’ve said.If the AFL goes that far, Team 23-24 may be 70 years away.
It's hard to predict what could happen demographically in that time. 70 years ago, the Gold Coast was smaller than Launceston and nobody would've been predicted them to host any national team.
I'd expect travel and sport science to be way better by then, so I think it might open up some intercontinental options. London/Dublin/LA/Joburg could all be options by then as well.
We'll have 32 teams by 2050I think we could see 24 teams in our lifetime, 21 and 22 in the 2050s and 23 and 24 in the 2070s. But it could very well be 2060s and 2090s and a 70 year gap as you’ve said.
I agree, but if WA pass on the chance of a 3rd team and Canberra does not produce a viable bid it leaves the door open for SA3 to create team 20.I just don't think Adelaide's big enough for a third team.
It wasn't that long ago Port was struggling for crowds and only averaged 20k for the season (I still stand by the tarps as an idea though).
SA3 will be significantly smaller than Port. Port was by far the biggest SANFL team, and would have a minimum 30-year head start in the AFL on any SA3 team. And Port is still only a middle-sized club in the AFL, so SA3 would be tiny.
Adelaide might grow enough for the 21/22 expansion, but I reckon SA3 would really struggle as Team 20.
That still doesn’t mean that SA3 would be team 20. It would leave the door open for the NT/Northern Australia. Is it viable? No, but it’s popular and would be promoted, I guarantee, as the last piece of the expansion puzzle. Sadly a lot of people ignore Canberra when it comes to their perception of a nationally “complete” game.I agree, but if WA pass on the chance of a 3rd team and Canberra does not produce a viable bid it leaves the door open for SA3 to create team 20.
Door is open for WA3 now. It is theirs to loose.
The Northern Australia proposal is certainly far more advanced than anywhere else. The feasibility study has been completed and the business case is expected to be finished by the end of the year. The feasibility study recommended for the Northern Australia concept to be explored more extensively. The greater Cairns region is forecast to have 300k people within the next 8 years (with the city itself having over 200k). Darwin is expected to be up over 180k by the same time. Those two cities alone are already pushing it up near a similar level to Tassie, who were just granted a license.That still doesn’t mean that SA3 would be team 20. It would leave the door open for the NT/Northern Australia. Is it viable? No, but it’s popular and would be promoted, I guarantee, as the last piece of the expansion puzzle. Sadly a lot of people ignore Canberra when it comes to their perception of a nationally “complete” game.