Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[Gethelred]

I don't think so, Crows had Walker, Jenkins, Lynch, Gov

... and the bloke who made it work, Eddie.

Without Eddie scaring the shit out of opponents with the groundball, opposition would've worked out that Jenkins and Walker simply didn't tackle, and would've sought to flick it round upon exiting back 50 instead of trying to go slow, avoid the groundball. Helps that they had an extremely productive and precise transition game that lent itself towards marking inside forward 50, and thus they didn't turn it over too often going in, but Eddie scared the crap out of teams in that period. They could cover Tex, Jenkins, but Eddie could take 4 marks inside 50 and find a target or kick it himself, create space inside a thimble, lay a tackle or three for a HTB, or kick a simply absurd goal from anywhere within 30m.

The difference between them being a bottom 8/bottom half of the top 8 side and them being top 4 really was Lever and Betts.

The reason I bring this up is while we have Betts we do not have that version of him, nor do we have anyone who can do that on our list. We also do not have a Lever, and we don't have an Atkins or a Laird or either of the Crouches or a prime Rory Sloane. We can't play as precisely as they could, and for two seasons in there they were extremely direct and precise. You don't reach a grand final without being a little tough, but they got there without getting much mud on the jumper.

I do not think their structure was very flexible, and I do not think we should try to replicate it. I think as a team the best we've looked was not last week against Freo but the week before, against (funnily enough) Adelaide, when we went in short and played short.

We don't put much pressure on the ball carrier. When we're smaller we put on more. I think smaller is the way to go, unless and until Charlie is firing on all cylinders; Jack as a leadup CHF/midfielder is functioning just as ably as any setup we've had this season.

If Gov wants back into the ones, that's the position he's got to crack into.

 

[DangerousD]

If a players body has shown over many years, that it isn’t up to the rigours of AFL football, why would we continue to persist?

Regardless of talent, Gov has not been able to play consistent football.

Trade him and take the hit, when I say trade, I mean a 3rd or 4th rounder, even offer to pay $50,000 per year.

His output seems exaggerated in his absence and we are already carrying too many injury prone players.

 

[Gethelred]

Peak McGovern is dynamic and improves our forward line and connection through the arcs. But we haven’t seen peak McGovern in more than a couple of quarters. I was not in favour of his recruitment, believing that JSOS and at the time Pat Kerr were going to capably fill the position he was traded in for. Also did not believe he was worth anywhere near the money. One reason I am off the Teague Train is DT’s stubborn support of his mate, who was stubbornly selected while living the high life with his big pay cheque and not doing the work to condition his body for maximum performance, let alone to simply handle the rigours of an AFL footy season.

Those hanging on to hopes of him justifying his salary are supreme optimists. It is not impossible, but highly unlikely. Both Jack Silvagni and potentially Brodie Kemp can provide a similar or greater output as third tall forwards. It is also likely that one Patrick Cripps will play more forward as our young midfielders develop.

I agree, and neither was I, and I especially didn't want him at the price we paid.

I can’t help but see McGovern as potential trade collateral either for Cerra, if feasible, or for a decent forward/ruck. Story on AFL site regarding a potential Victorian move for Rory Lobb for instance. This poster sees the need for a solid, mature forward/ruck to complement TDK as an equal priority to acquiring a KPD successor to Jones in the upcoming trade/draft period. I like Pittonet, but TDK and a forward threat back up would be spectacular in coming years.

Not overly enamoured with Lobb over a couple of other options I could name, but looking like Taberner and young Treacy is going to be Freo’s preference going forward. A third tall WA boy like McGovern might be attractive to them with their ongoing failure to convert in front of the big sticks. Fair chance MM was front loaded, so they may just be happy to improve their salary cap position (or hopefully he was front ended too) His age profile gives us a chance to phase in Mirkov in a couple of years and gives us a bit more experience in the big man department. The prospect of TDK and Lobb taking the third banana tall defender away from Harry and Charlie is quite salivating. (For the record, my preferred forward/ruck mid priced target would be Darcy Cameron from the Collywobbles - salary cap issues with Mihocek, Cox, young Lynch, and rated youngsters Will Kelly and McMahon and the pressure to trade in Wiedeman or similar might shake him loose)

I think we need a) a backup ruckman/KPP cover akin to Levi, (hopefully that's Oscar McDonald, but Levi's key trait aside from his hands has been his durability) b) a replacement for Jones, and to determine if Marchbank is ever going to be able to stand up to the rigours of AFL level footy, and c) more KPP depth.

I don't want a Lobb-Tippettesque forward/ruckman at all. Not only do I not think we need one - although it depends on the stoppage coaching; it's something that can be planned around and compensated for - I also think it results in an overall drain in total team running and speed for not nearly enough gain. I would rather plan to lose the taps while Jack/Cripps is in the ruck and have the extra midfielder than I would play another tall to get 13 possessions, 4-6 marks and 15 taps and if we're extremely lucky a single goal a match.

If we can talk Freo into accepting Gov as part of a Cerra deal, I'd be sprinting away shouting, "No take backs!" He can't get on the park, and when he's on it he's brilliant for five minutes before going back to what he was before.

Treacy isn't someone they'd be interested in letting go, I'd have thought. He's having a good year. Taberner is what, 32? Cameron would be useful backup for TDK, but I genuinely do not want us shoehorning in a second ruckman unless their performance in their first position warrants their selection onfield there. Not on the bench, not as a useful rotation, not as a contingency for injury; unless and until that second ruck is holding down CHF or a third tall position at an AFL standard would I be willing to have them take a spot on in the 22.

 

[Gethelred]

If a players body has shown over many years, that it isn’t up to the rigours of AFL football, why would we continue to persist?

Regardless of talent, Gov has not been able to play consistent football.

Trade him and take the hit, when I say trade, I mean a 3rd or 4th rounder, even offer to pay $50,000 per year.

His output seems exaggerated in his absence and we are already carrying too many injury prone players.

Flip it over to someone less controversial.

Marchbank has not been able to play consistent footy. Should we trade him and take the hit?

 

[mediumsizered]

Tough decision really, JSOS tenacity is admirable and he's far from being a superstar, but golly gee he gives it his all.

He can fix that horrible goal kicking and kick 15-20 per season, EASILY slides in front of Mcgov, not even close.

Why do you think he's in front of JSOS?

His kicking for goal last week was much improved. He has obviously been working on it. You could see he was much more upright & therefore kicking through the ball better.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

If a players body has shown over many years, that it isn’t up to the rigours of AFL football, why would we continue to persist?

Regardless of talent, Gov has not been able to play consistent football.

Trade him and take the hit, when I say trade, I mean a 3rd or 4th rounder, even offer to pay $50,000 per year.

His output seems exaggerated in his absence and we are already carrying too many injury prone players.

Lincoln Mccarthy

 

[Gethelred]

Lincoln Mccarthy

Brisbane are ridiculous at that sort of thing. Their run over the past 5-6 years has been ****ing witchcraft.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Brisbane are ridiculous at that sort of thing. Their run over the past 5-6 years has been ******* witchcraft.

I think past 2-3 and funny how that's coincided with that huuuuge upgrade to their facilities.

 

[sosos]

Who cares about Gov's salary apart from him? Ken Wood and Nick Austin. Apart from them, no-one else should care. Sos paid for the guy when we could afford it, when no-one else was coming to the club, and like every year, we still had to pay 95% of the cap, so it had to be spent regardless. And he front ended it.

And while we haven't got any bang for buck yet, there is still a chance, and that is not supreme optimism, that's just the way things can work. There are some players who didn't give it there best shot early, then the penny drops and they turn around. Also plenty who disappear of course, that's just the industry.

When trade time comes, he'll be judged on his effort and output, as with all players. If he's let go at the end of this year without any further contribution to our fortunes on field, I'm happy to call him an expensive bust.

Just don't see the point in doing that now. Seems premature.

 

[Coona Blues]

If we can talk Freo into accepting Gov as part of a Cerra deal, I'd be sprinting away shouting, "No take backs!" He can't get on the park, and when he's on it he's brilliant for five minutes before going back to what he was before.

Treacy isn't someone they'd be interested in letting go, I'd have thought. He's having a good year. Taberner is what, 32? Cameron would be useful backup for TDK, but I genuinely do not want us shoehorning in a second ruckman unless their performance in their first position warrants their selection onfield there. Not on the bench, not as a useful rotation, not as a contingency for injury; unless and until that second ruck is holding down CHF or a third tall position at an AFL standard would I be willing to have them take a spot on in the 22.

Thinking you and a few others would be surprised to check the performances of Cameron this year. Multiple goals on multiple occasions. Drafted as a ruck, and is a decent one. Has trimmed down and can see as a long term KPF. With Magpies list management woes and so much uncertainty, reckon he will be offered an unflattering contract to re-sign. Just thinking a middle of the road contract like Levi’s would be a chance of bringing him over.

 

[DangerousD]

Flip it over to someone less controversial.

Marchbank has not been able to play consistent footy. Should we trade him and take the hit?

As he is out with an ACL until mid next year, allowing us to take an extra player in the supplement period or the MSD, no, but if Caleb still can’t get on the park next season, then I would be delisting him, with the intent to rookie him.

Ive seen Marchbank when fit and I think he has shown a lot more than Gov, his $$$$$ I would assume would be quite a bit less.

If the club received an offer on either, then I’m all for it, we can’t continue to carry, so many injury prone players.

 

[Gethelred]

As he is out with an ACL until mid next year, allowing us to take an extra player in the supplement period or the MSD, no, but if Caleb still can’t get on the park next season, then I would be delisting him, with the intent to rookie him.

Ive seen Marchbank when fit and I think he has shown a lot more than Gov, his $$$$$ I would assume would be quite a bit less.

If the club received an offer on either, then I’m all for it, we can’t continue to carry, so many injury prone players.

Hmmm...

I'd actualy have them on a similar level, personally. Marchbank is a more consistent performer within a single game, but McGovern has kicked 5 goals in a game and 32 goals in a season before. It's not as though Gov has never played at a decent level before.

Being cheap is not really worth a damn if he can't get on the park. In the end, he's taking a spot from a developing KPD who's potentially a better fit opposite Weitering than he is, regardless of contract size, as much as it makes me feel like a piece of shit to say so.

If this were a just world, this will be the last injury he gets and he'll become the player we all want him to be. But this isn't that world, not really.

 

[DangerousD]

Hmmm...

I'd actualy have them on a similar level, personally. Marchbank is a more consistent performer within a single game, but McGovern has kicked 5 goals in a game and 32 goals in a season before. It's not as though Gov has never played at a decent level before.

Being cheap is not really worth a damn if he can't get on the park. In the end, he's taking a spot from a developing KPD who's potentially a better fit opposite Weitering than he is, regardless of contract size, as much as it makes me feel like a piece of sh*t to say so.

If this were a just world, this will be the last injury he gets and he'll become the player we all want him to be. But this isn't that world, not really.

Your second paragraph is the harsh reality, how long do you keep trying and hoping they buck the trend?

Gov has kicked 5 goals in a game and yes he did score 32 goals once, in his first season, he also hasn’t come close to matching those numbers since, it just in goals but all areas, even when fit, his output is low.

 

[windows1]

Mr Plow, Jimmae, anyone with any medical understanding at all….

WHY has Patrick Cripps

9

Patrick Cripps

Age

30

Ht

195cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.9

5star

K

9.8

4star

HB

16.1

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

5.8

5star

CL

7.4

5star

D

21.0

5star

K

10.1

4star

HB

10.9

5star

M

2.5

3star

T

3.8

4star

CL

6.3

5star

D

12.6

4star

K

4.8

2star

HB

7.8

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.4

4star

’ Ground ball get game gone to hell this year? He was a 9+ ground ball gets a game player. He’s down in the 5s. It’s been like this all year. He’s running really well I think.

It DOES seem to me like he can’t get his hands down to the ground.

Yet they say his back is completely fine and we all recall Teague being incredulous about the topic being raised ages ago. “He WAS injured but is totally fine now.”

And yet he isn’t. Please ignore the foot thing. I really don’t care about that. I’m talking about the season as a whole and the total loss of the defining feature of his game.

Are they lying to us? Is his back still buggered? Is it something else? Is it mental? I did read a fascinating blog by a powerlifting physio who explained that long after back injuries have ‘healed’ athletes struggle mentally to regain confidence in the back. Is it that?

What’s going on? Why don’t the media ask about it? Don’t they see it? He’s the best centre clearance/hard ball get/ground ball get player I’ve ever seen…..until now. Now he’s average.

WHY?

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

Mr Plow, Jimmae, anyone with any medical understanding at all….

WHY has Patrick Cripps’ Ground ball get game gone to hell this year? He was a 9+ ground ball gets a game player. He’s down in the 5s. It’s been like this all year. He’s running really well I think.

It DOES seem to me like he can’t get his hands down to the ground.

Yet they say his back is completely fine and we all recall Teague being incredulous about the topic being raised ages ago. “He WAS injured but is totally fine now.”

And yet he isn’t. Please ignore the foot thing. I really don’t care about that. I’m talking about the season as a whole and the total loss of the defining feature of his game.

Are they lying to us? Is his back still buggered? Is it something else? Is it mental? I did read a fascinating blog by a powerlifting physio who explained that long after back injuries have ‘healed’ athletes struggle mentally to regain confidence in the back. Is it that?

What’s going on? Why don’t the media ask about it? Don’t they see it? He’s the best centre clearance/hard ball get/ground ball get player I’ve ever seen…..until now. Now he’s average.

WHY?

I haven’t had confidence in my back since I was 13, other than a 2-4 week period a few times, it could certainly be that...

Backs never fully go away IMO...

 

[Blue Pulse]

Thought that was a mannequin until i pressed play.

Our last premiership "retro" .

Good t-shirt but.

That's embarrassing for a number of reasons, one, those guys weren't even born

 

[Blue_Fusion]

They were % only out of the 8 and in 9th spot versing a team battling to be out of the bottom 4 at the time.

They should've expected a win, if roles were reversed we'd call it a terrible loss as well.

In other words, they were a few spots ahead of us - mostly because of their draw...

 

[Coops93]

In other words, they were a few spots ahead of us - mostly because of their draw...

Those words aren't reflective of what I said at all.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Mr Plow, Jimmae, anyone with any medical understanding at all….

WHY has Patrick Cripps’ Ground ball get game gone to hell this year? He was a 9+ ground ball gets a game player. He’s down in the 5s. It’s been like this all year. He’s running really well I think.

It DOES seem to me like he can’t get his hands down to the ground.

Yet they say his back is completely fine and we all recall Teague being incredulous about the topic being raised ages ago. “He WAS injured but is totally fine now.”

And yet he isn’t. Please ignore the foot thing. I really don’t care about that. I’m talking about the season as a whole and the total loss of the defining feature of his game.

Are they lying to us? Is his back still buggered? Is it something else? Is it mental? I did read a fascinating blog by a powerlifting physio who explained that long after back injuries have ‘healed’ athletes struggle mentally to regain confidence in the back. Is it that?

What’s going on? Why don’t the media ask about it? Don’t they see it? He’s the best centre clearance/hard ball get/ground ball get player I’ve ever seen…..until now. Now he’s average.

WHY?

Idk about the medical stuff aside from breaking a lower vertebrae mid season once and it not being right ever again... To play comfortably it took a year ish.

Also we don't play contested footy. Cripps numbers are down because we don't play to his strengths anyway.

Would be worth, if you really are interested, to look at his ground ball gets per game compared to other people within each game. Likely to tell you the opportunity for ground ball gets and hence whether he's proportionately still somewhat high or just low and there's room for him to be way better.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Those words aren't reflective of what I said at all.

Well, you mentioned their ladder position right? You don't think our draw being relatively tougher than theirs contributed to that?

I want to know what is it about Freo that suggests they shouldn't be losing to us? Because from what I can tell, we're about equal as it stands and it was always going to be closer to a 50-50 game than a certain Freo win.

 

[Coops93]

Well, you mentioned their ladder position right? You don't think our draw being relatively tougher than theirs contributed to that?

I want to know what is it about Freo that suggests they shouldn't be losing to us? Because from what I can tell, we're about equal as it stands and it was always going to be closer to a 50-50 game than a certain Freo win.

I didn't say what you said was wrong, just that it wasn't what I was saying put in a different way.

I wouldn't say they shouldn't lose to us, but a loss to us would be seen as disappointing for sure. They're in the thick of the finals race and we're not, so they would've gone into a game vs a team in 14th would be a should win, as would the media.

You could make the case about difficulty of schedules, I don't really know enough about Freos year.

The only thing I do know for certain about Freo is they sell adult long sleeves guernseys and we bloody don't! Figger it oot Carlton ffs!

 

[ferrisb]

Mountain. Molehill.

If we were in 11th and lost to 14th, we'd all be saying 'that was a match that we needed to win, not good enough'

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Mountain. Molehill.

If we were in 11th and lost to 14th, we'd all be saying 'that was a match that we needed to win, not good enough'

1 comment is making a mountain out of a mole hill?

11th to 14th is a much too simplistic way of looking at it..

Look at the lists, draw and results and tell me honestly do you think Freo are superior enough compared to us that they should not be losing to us?

 

[Pablito]

1 comment is making a mountain out of a mole hill?

11th to 14th is a much too simplistic way of looking at it..

Look at the lists, draw and results and tell me honestly do you think Freo are superior enough compared to us that they should not be losing to us?

Actually the ladder is a ranking system based on the performance of all teams across the season, taking into account all points scored and conceded and games won and lost.

Not exactly simplistic lol

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Actually the ladder is a ranking system based on the performance of all teams across the season, taking into account all points scored and conceded and games won and lost.

Not exactly simplistic lol

Ok. Freo are 3 places better team than us regardless of draw...