Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[I AM CARLTON]

Hawks went 17 odd years without a flag, 91 to 08. They sacked a number of coaches and had to go through a rebuild

Does that mean they had this mystical winning culture during that period? No

Culture isn't winning or losing, it's about about the array of ingredients that fosters strong positive habits

But who really cares about strong positive habits if you aren't winning flags?
Over the last 50 years who would you say has a better winning culture Hawthorn or St Kilda?

 

[carlton_99]

Well, not a lot this year, and it was in the context of clubs like Sydney and Adelaide jumping up the ladder playing kids.

Sydney and Adelaide did not go through the full rebuild that we did. We went through years and years of playing draftees that probably weren't ready for the AFL to try and fast track development. We have finally reached the stage now where barring injuries we actually have some decent depth. Although I agree its time to move on some of the more experienced players we are six rounds in and there is no need to just start playing players just because they are young. We should be a team, where you have to be the best on ground in the VFL for a few weeks to earn a spot in the team (especially with a fully fit best 22).

 

[Arr0w]

But who really cares about strong positive habits if you aren't winning flags?
Over the last 50 years who would you say has a better winning culture Hawthorn or St Kilda?

I think you are missing the point

You don't judge culture around flags, they are a byproduct of talented teams

If the Hawks had the best culture in the league over that 50 year period, they should have won 50 flags then

 

[katmanblue]

I mean, in 2011 we beat Sydney twice in Longmire's second year as coach of Sydney, despite them playing essentially the exact same gameplan they played in 2012; drive your opponent wide and allow them however long you want inside forward 50 to set up slingshot plays and beat you back to the other end of the field.

Just because what we're trying now isn't working does not necessarily mean it cannot work. It's kind of sh*t - and it's what cost Bolton his job - but discarding the overarching gameplan because you cannot execute it quite yet is probably not a good idea.

Exactly.

It won't work, until it does. And as such will be made to look ordinary until it works.

I wonder if Teague will have the fortitude to wait out the outside noise and back his system in.

 

[thylacine60]

Betts and Murphy should be in the 2s helping out the kids.
We're the only club not playing youth.
Lloyd needs to work out what we're doing.
Teague is too nice.

Can't stand nice bastards.

 

[Arr0w]

OK, potentially fair for the bigger picture gameplan, we're making big mistakes with our structure around the contest though. The assistants need to be better with our set-ups around the ball, even if our down the field set-ups are just not being played to their potential.

As a senior coach, you instruct your assistants what you want.

We don't know if the instructions are flawed or the execution

 

[gab213]

"Only club not playing youth" hahaha thats gotta be some kind of joke. We've had what's felt like 20 years of playing youth

Sellers is the definition of 'rent a quote'. He always gives them what they want.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

What hope of balanced reporting in the media have we got, when one of our own puts forward this kind of bullshit?

It's just hyperbole based on us putting out one of the oldest teams in the comp weekly. Another way of saying our old guys aren't providing anywhere near enough. Hardly bullshit, fairly well discussed on here.

 

[I AM CARLTON]

I think you are missing the point

You don't judge culture around flags, they are a byproduct of talented teams

If the Hawks had the best culture in the league over that 50 year period, they should have won 50 flags then

No Im not missing the point but it's cool to agree to disagree.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

As a senior coach, you instruct your assistants what you want.

We don't know if the instructions are flawed or the execution

You also listen to the feedback from your trusted assistants so you aren't spread too thin doing it yourself, which raises the question is the feedback quality, or yes man like.

 

[Jeremias]

It's just hyperbole based on us putting out one of the oldest teams in the comp weekly. Another way of saying our old guys aren't providing anywhere near enough. Hardly bullshit, fairly well discussed on here.

It's bullshit because it's simply not true. And nobody in the media has the balls or the brains to pull people up on it.

Some of our older guys aren't pulling their weight, you won't get an argument on that from me, but to suggest we're the only club not playing the kids is just a complete and utter lie.

 

[Arr0w]

You also listen to the feedback from your trusted assistants so you aren't spread too thin doing it yourself, which raises the question is the feedback quality, or yes man like.

Again we wouldn't know.

Are the assistants raising concerns/ideas

Is Teague open or closed to these concerns/ideas

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

It's bullshit because it's simply not true. And nobody in the media has the balls or the brains to pull people up on it.

Some of our older guys aren't pulling their weight, you won't get an argument on that from me, but to suggest we're the only club not playing the kids is just a complete and utter lie.

It's hyperbole. Exaggeration to get the point across. It's irrelevant whether it's true or not. He's telling the club in his own way that enoughs enough with the undroppable underperforming older brigade? What's so wrong with that? Who cares if a few idiots take it literally, they're also irrelevant.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Again we wouldn't know.

Are the assistants raising concerns/ideas

Is Teague open or closed to these concerns/ideas

Unfortunately we know there's a problem in the black box, we can't see inside the black box.

 

[Stamos]

As a senior coach, you instruct your assistants what you want.

We don't know if the instructions are flawed or the execution

All we know is that something is flawed, because it's not working. And it's on Teague (or Lloyd) to fix it.

 

[Jeremias]

It's hyperbole. Exaggeration to get the point across. It's irrelevant whether it's true or not. He's telling the club in his own way that enoughs enough with the undroppable underperforming older brigade? What's so wrong with that? Who cares if a few idiots take it literally, they're also irrelevant.

I think you're letting Sellers off very, very lightly. I'm not sure it's hyperbole at all.

 

[Stamos]

I think you're letting Sellers off very, very lightly. I'm not sure it's hyperbole at all.

Did you watch it?

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I think you're letting Sellers off very, very lightly. I'm not sure it's hyperbole at all.

Ok? So if we go with it being non hyperbole then what? Who gives a shit what other clubs are doing, the crux that we aren't playing enough youth is right. Our starting team has been one of the oldest in the comp every week this season, with the older heads underperforming. What is so wrong with that, that you're so angry with?

 

[Beast__Mode]

I liked your post because it neatly summarised all the open questions/issues now on the table. I swing forom this view to optimistic for second half of season and back again..

That said - I am more inclined to be persuaded by what you haven't adressed. Injuries.


Cripps and Harry signing - is the biggest 'real' challenge the Club is working through. Harry is being chased hard - for good reason, he is now evidencing top5 KPF quality if not better. That is gold to any team. Cripps - all the Club noise suggests that Cripps is just a matter of time - even Liddle felt obliged to put a 5 week timeline on it....that was three weeks ago. I watched Harry on a TV show the other night alongside SOJ. Harry is a very smart young man. Definately a two ears one mouth type.

He has played himself into maximum leverage as far as contract negotiations go - and he hasn't been on the coin that Charlie was on Harry is more key to us than any other player on the books - except for maybe Walash - then maybe Cripps.

Still teh Club is likely to offload Murphy/Eddie and maybe Levi next year- that releases a bit.

I think injuries are a factor but not as big a factor as we want them to be when we look at performance. I’d point to two factors - this week we have either the 4th or 5th fewest games played on our injury list in the comp. and of those on the list are there really any fundamental players? I don’t count Charlie because no one has any clue at all what he is going to be and therefore what he will mean to us. I don’t think Murph or Betts, with their significant minus on our ability to defend the whole ground, would be out of the team if Fisher were in. Newman maybe releases SPS, which would be positive. Martin of course is a plus. TDK is promising but if a ruck with so few games is critical to you then your list is not contending.

Secondly the issues we see are partly skill and execution, which speaks to injuries playing a role. But to my mind the most glaring issue is system and mental application. If there are 22 fit players on the ground we should at least be going home lamenting lapses of execution or stars on the opposing team taking advantage of a lesser matchup (which I felt was the case in Rd 1). I’m going home from these games (I’ve been to every Melbourne game) lamenting how easy we are to play as a collective. Port were not stressed by us in the slightest. I don’t think the Lions were too fussed either outside of Harry.

anyway enough from me. I’m disappointed because I really like Teague and was really looking forward seeing a team coached by him playing fun, scoring and tough footy. At the moment it’s anything but and getting to the point where I think the club’s view of the list vs the output on field is going to diverge to the point where his position is untenable by year’s end.

Harry will be worth every $ he gets from whoever is lucky enough to be the one paying him. I hope it’s us.

 

[Jeremias]

Did you watch it?

No. I don't watch 360 any more.

I've seen more than enough of it and of Sellers though to know he's a pretty straight shooter.

Ok? So if we go with it being non hyperbole then what? Who gives a sh*t what other clubs are doing, the crux that we aren't playing enough youth is right. Our starting team has been one of the oldest in the comp every week this season, with the older heads underperforming. What is so wrong with that, that you're so angry with?

Who said anything about being angry?

All I've said is some perspective would be nice. And Sellers ain't giving it.

 

[Beast__Mode]

The only part of Sellers’ comments that I took issue with was effectively saying Dow hasn’t had a chance. He had a month of footy.

 

[norway blue]

I think the point Sellers was trying to make was that we didn’t really have any of our young players in from drafts a few years ago really stepping up .For sure young players need exposure/experience so keep cunners , stocker in .


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[Jeremias]

The only part of Sellers’ comments that I took issue with was effectively saying Dow hasn’t had a chance. He had a month of footy.

31 out of 113 CBAs across his 4 senior games. Less than 30%.

Is that a big enough chance for a centre square mid?

 

[JustaBattler]

Downside of having a coach 'appointed' by the senior players...

Coaches are always the fall guys aren't they?

 

[norway blue]

31 out of 113 CBAs across his 4 senior games. Less than 30%.

Is that a big enough chance for a centre square mid?

That’s why he should go back and a couple of the younger backs go forward ..


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