Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread

Arr0w

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You don’t need to be condescending Arrow. Unless you’re referring to Facebook idiots, most of us know he was coaching for the future. But if he’d continued as coach those 60,000 members would become you, Soapy and a couple of others. I wish we all had your patience and holistic outlook, but most of us don’t and was said a number of times it’s a win/loss industry with a pretty simple KPI.

Having said that, if we beat Gold Coast, Hawthorn and the Pies, we’d be 4 and 7, still grumbling, still dealing with trolls wanting Bolton to go, but at least aware of the improvement. But we didn’t win those games and it seems the toll of those losses finally broke the back of the players and the coaches. Sunday was the culmination of this.

Don’t worry though if Brad Scott, Burns, Nicks or whomever they appoint gets us winning again I’ll be praising Bolton and what he established.


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Mondy, could you please show where in my post I was condescending?
 

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Arr0w

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When you start a sentence with “What most of you don’t realise...” a generalisation that suggests you know better than most of us.


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Okay, so let's say everyone here knew that, why then the continual questions as to why senior players are not part of the majority of our midfield rotations?
 

bluebrew

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Okay, so let's say everyone here knew that, why then the continual questions as to why senior players are not part of the majority of our midfield rotations?
Simple its known before we begin none of them run defensively. Except Ed possibly
 

Mondyboy

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Okay, so let's say everyone here knew that, why then the continual questions as to why senior players are not part of the majority of our midfield rotations?
I think it’s a fair enough question if you think that the balance was off, that there was too much focus on the young kids taking the brunt of the coal-face work. Which could be the case given Dow and Fisher have gone backwards and SPS has had only one bright moment.

In other words, these aren’t mutually exclusive strategies.

I grant you that some people here - not most, some - ask some stupid questions.


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rog1995

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I think the biggest problem was that Bolton just tried too hard. He lived and breathed footy. Perhaps the kids just got exhausted. Players no longer playing on instinct or seemed to enjoy playing footy anymore. We'll never know. I guess.
 

Arr0w

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Simple its known before we begin none of them run defensively. Except Ed possibly
Bolton, the MC, the club, handled the midfield over to our youth at the start of the season, hopefully to fast track this rebuild. Short term that would bring pain, if everyone knew, this was the strategy, why the continual finger pointing?

Yes, it is a win/loss industry but the strength of character of the people that backed the likes of Thompson, Buckley and Hardwick, should be applauded, that is what builds success, that's a brand
 

bluebrew

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Bolton, the MC, the club, handled the midfield over to our youth at the start of the season, hopefully to fast track this rebuild. Short term that would bring pain, if everyone knew, this was the strategy, why the continual finger pointing?

Yes, it is a win/loss industry but the strength of character of the people that backed the likes of Thompson, Buckley and Hardwick, should be applauded, that is what builds success, that's a brand
Why did we hand it over to youth is the question? Our experience not running both ways? our inability to recruit mature age experience?
I Agree with your sentiments a hell of a lot, from where I sit I do not believe playing 65 kg v 90 kg is something we should have ever done unless it has the skill to do so.
These kids have been belted physically and emotionally from pillar to post put in places they have no place being.
I would go as far to say at the end of this year some of our youth are going in trades for experience, that will define where we go in this next chapter.
 

harmesy 37

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I purchased Foxtel many a year ago so in large part I could watch footy. For all these years, I could watch Carlton or other matches featuring other teams and just enjoy footy as a sport...but something changed for me when they lost to Gold Coast. I've sat through hundreds and hundreds of Carlton matches, yet I just don't want to do it anymore. I have lost the need to watch AFL footy of any description.


In previous years, if Carlton was towards the bottom I would turn on another match eg Collingwood vs Richmond and pick a team based on where they were on the ladder as to who I would want to win. Now I can't even do that. I just don't watch any matches of any other clubs. Something clicked for me- why does it matter if Adelaide Crows beat North Melbourne etc? These clubs mean nothing to me. It won't impact on Carlton so what is the point of watching it? In previous years I could watch other teams just purely irrespective of Carlton's place in it all. I could still enjoy the sport, yet now it just doesn't interest me at all..any of it...so when I was watching Sky News a newsflash came on about Bolton leaving Carlton. I still felt nothing.


The club is inept and will continue to be inept whoever takes the place of Bolton. Why on earth do they hire someone who has never played at AFL level? Why did they trade away their first round draft pick? and on it goes.


In a way, there would be a sense of relief if they closed Carlton down if purely so that the AFL can't continue to make money out of the club. It would hurt the AFL more than it would hurt Carlton. Without Carlton the whole competition is kind of meaningless....but I guess the AFL can create a new shiny "Franchise" with arrows on their guernsey and call them the Tasmanian, Ballarat & Northern Territory electric flying wombats. They could have nice little mascots handed out to the kids, have a joint venture with the gold coast suns and destroy all that Carlton culture in the process..The marketing executives can guarantee their $500,000 pay packet as they have created something brand new, that captures a new market, a new demographic, like a shiny new freeway. Who needs culture when there is money to be made?
 

FRUMPY

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It's a win/loss business.

We've won 4 out of our last 43 games lol that's a joke our list is better than that.

Without going into detail Liddle did also mention it was 'the way we were losing' which is what a lot of us here think as well...we've been completely listless 4 out of the last 5 weeks and everything to do with our game plan, structures, ball movement etc have looked terrible. Where's the development?
It's 1 out of 11 that got him sacked. Nothing to do with the 3 and 32 before that. Club knew where we were at the end of 2018. Club was expecting to improve a fair bit and win more games, probably 5-8 this year. This hasn't happened and after being very competitive early we have been extremely uncompetitive the last 4-6 weeks. Add that to how we lost to gold coast and hawks and even the pies, writing was on the wall that he wasn't the man to take us forward and get wins on the board

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Arr0w

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Why did we hand it over to youth is the question? Our experience not running both ways? our inability to recruit mature age experience?
I Agree with your sentiments a hell of a lot, from where I sit I do not believe playing 65 kg v 90 kg is something we should have ever done unless it has the skill to do so.
These kids have been belted physically and emotionally from pillar to post put in places they have no place being.
I would go as far to say at the end of this year some of our youth are going in trades for experience, that will define where we go in this next chapter.
We rightly handed it over to the youth to stop our band-aid, mid table existence since the Pagan days, rise for a couple of years, then back down the ladder and never truly investing in youth. Yes, at times I think Bolton has gone too far, when he could have added some stronger bodies around the ball, but I would rather he err in youth, than persist with teh likes of a Kerridge or Graham type, that hurts us long term.

I doubt we will trade any youth that has value, but unless we show signs of being consistently competitive and hopefully snagging some wins, we could only really hope to attract the likes of a Newman, who I must say has been a decent pick up considering the value we gave up
 

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bluebrew

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We rightly handed it over to the youth to stop our band-aid, mid table existence since the Pagan days, rise for a couple of years, then back down the ladder and never truly investing in youth. Yes, at times I think Bolton has gone too far, when he could have added some stronger bodies around the ball, but I would rather he err in youth, than persist with teh likes of a Kerridge or Graham type, that hurts us long term.

I doubt we will trade any youth that has value, but unless we show signs of being consistently competitive and hopefully snagging some wins, we could only really hope to attract the likes of a Newman, who I must say has been a decent pick up considering the value we gave up
I don't think we will have any choice but to trade youth to get deals over the line.
A kerridge type now blocking for cripps is what we need a player that sacrifices for the good of the team.It also teaches the young un's how to go about it.

No one has asked but do we have a thread where players weights are recorded when they arrived and updated each year? It seems to me our players are way smaller than equivalent from other clubs.
 

Arr0w

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I don't think we will have any choice but to trade youth to get deals over the line.
A kerridge type now blocking for cripps is what we need a player that sacrifices for the good of the team.It also teaches the young un's how to go about it.

No one has asked but do we have a thread where players weights are recorded when they arrived and updated each year? It seems to me our players are way smaller than equivalent from other clubs.
We do lack senior bodies, so we either recruit them, pending better performances short term or wait for them to mature. Unless anyone has inside data, heights and weights would not be overly accurate, so I agree we are undersized

What I think this group lacks short term is speed, better disposal by foot and more intent. More players in the mould of a Willo, Maynard from the Pies etc
 

Gethelred

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You don’t need to be condescending Arrow. Unless you’re referring to Facebook idiots, most of us know he was coaching for the future. But if he’d continued as coach those 60,000 members would become you, Soapy and a couple of others. I wish we all had your patience and holistic outlook, but most of us don’t and was said a number of times it’s a win/loss industry with a pretty simple KPI.

Having said that, if we beat Gold Coast, Hawthorn and the Pies, we’d be 4 and 7, still grumbling, still dealing with trolls wanting Bolton to go, but at least aware of the improvement. But we didn’t win those games and it seems the toll of those losses finally broke the back of the players and the coaches. Sunday was the culmination of this.

Don’t worry though if Brad Scott, Burns, Nicks or whomever they appoint gets us winning again I’ll be praising Bolton and what he established.


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How was the post quoted condescending?

Okay, I've had enough. I'm seeing a lot of posters attacking Arr0w of late, accusing him of being condescending, arrogant, argumentative. I've seen Arr0w respond in kind, which then creates a self-fulfilling prophesy; you needle Arr0w with this, he gets frustrated and responds and everyone jumps in from there. I've just about had it with this kind of behaviour, but I've let it pass to this point as he can fight his own battles.

From this point, if I see it again, I'm reporting the posts as attacking the poster, because that's what it is. People accusing him of bullying people, when there's a good 10-15 people on this board that are doing their utmost to chase him off.

:rolleyes:
 

Mondyboy

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How was the post quoted condescending?

Okay, I've had enough. I'm seeing a lot of posters attacking Arr0w of late, accusing him of being condescending, arrogant, argumentative. I've seen Arr0w respond in kind, which then creates a self-fulfilling prophesy; you needle Arr0w with this, he gets frustrated and responds and everyone jumps in from there. I've just about had it with this kind of behaviour, but I've let it pass to this point as he can fight his own battles.

From this point, if I see it again, I'm reporting the posts as attacking the poster, because that's what it is. People accusing him of bullying people, when there's a good 10-15 people on this board that are doing their utmost to chase him off.

:rolleyes:
I explained how it was condescending in my response to Arrow, when he asked the same question.


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Mondyboy

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We do lack senior bodies, so we either recruit them, pending better performances short term or wait for them to mature. Unless anyone has inside data, heights and weights would not be overly accurate, so I agree we are undersized

What I think this group lacks short term is speed, better disposal by foot and more intent. More players in the mould of a Willo, Maynard from the Pies etc
I just don’t see where we get those strong bodies from. I like that the club will be happy to part with our first round draft pick - and would have last year for D. Shiel - but it still requires for said player to want to come to the club and I’m not sure why you would. Maybe we turn that around in the next three months. But I’m not holding my breath.

We will also be competing against Norf who also have had problems attracting talent but apparently have deeper pockets.


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Arr0w

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I just don’t see where we get those strong bodies from. I like that the club will be happy to part with our first round draft pick - and would have last year for D. Shiel - but it still requires for said player to want to come to the club and I’m not sure why you would. Maybe we turn that around in the next three months. But I’m not holding my breath.

We will also be competing against Norf who also have had problems attracting talent but apparently have deeper pockets.


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We won't attract high quality players until the group is competitive for longer, but there are still teh Newman's of the game that can help the situation while the group matures.

Not concerned with North, they have already had a number of shots at gaining mature players, yet have spent some coin on some b/c graders like us. While they have a couple of really good kids, it's not at the level we have
 

Arr0w

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Having some time to think about Bolton's sacking, I still believe it is a poor decision, although I understand the reasons.

Firstly, despite popular belief, my views on Bolton seem to have been misconstrued. Not once have I ever stated that Bolton can 100% coach, all I have debated is how do any of us know whether he can or not. Unless any of us here have been coached by him, how could anyone suggest definitively one way or another.

The gameplan, is largely owned by the coach, but there is also strong input from all coaches and some of the playing leaders. Again, unless you are on the other end of the message, how would anyone know if the players were delivering consistently on what was agreed. While I have been critical of certain aspects of the gameplan and match ups, I don't believe any of it could be attributed for our close losses, a late kick against GC, Fisher hitting the post late against the Hawks, but others will say he should have done more during the game, to close it out earlier, which is fair too. But these moments are the responsibility of all that have the opportunity to have ball in hand

Most will point to the win/loss record, again I believe that is flawed. If Bolton was capable of extracting 7 wins in his first season, with a less talented, but more importantly, a more mature group, could it be possible that he could extract more wins as the group matures? Since that season our results have taken the same course as the maturity of our group.

Clubs like the Cats, Tigers, Pies, ignored the noise and their club turned their fortunes around, others Hawks, Dogs, Lions, Saints, Demons sacked coaches, most of them also headed in the right direction.(Allowances need to be made for the Demons and Saints considering the injuries). Even a recognised coach in Sheedy, could only extract 3 wins in 2 seasons at GWS.

So either way, I don't fear for this group meduim to long term, as things will turn once the players are ready, maturity. That is the one and ONLY common factor, with all of these rebuilds

Now we will have 2 phases, the rest of the year and the start of next year with a new coach. While I mentioned at the start of the season, that I believe we will have a better 2nd half, the pressure will remain, no matter the results. If wins start to come as of this week, it would be damning for the players. If we continue to have poor performances the rest of this year and next, then the decision makers, those who sacked Bolton, have no where to hide

Make no mistake, while it is easy for the club to point to expectations of win/loss for their decision, it was only delivered due to the pressure and fear of their own positions, if they continued to back Bolton through further losses, losses that everyone that follows the game, knows that will continue short term
 

ImBlue

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Malthouse hall of famer. Arggggh, give me strength.
Blowing raspberries.
 

BLUEALLTHRU

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I purchased Foxtel many a year ago so in large part I could watch footy. For all these years, I could watch Carlton or other matches featuring other teams and just enjoy footy as a sport...but something changed for me when they lost to Gold Coast. I've sat through hundreds and hundreds of Carlton matches, yet I just don't want to do it anymore. I have lost the need to watch AFL footy of any description.


In previous years, if Carlton was towards the bottom I would turn on another match eg Collingwood vs Richmond and pick a team based on where they were on the ladder as to who I would want to win. Now I can't even do that. I just don't watch any matches of any other clubs. Something clicked for me- why does it matter if Adelaide Crows beat North Melbourne etc? These clubs mean nothing to me. It won't impact on Carlton so what is the point of watching it? In previous years I could watch other teams just purely irrespective of Carlton's place in it all. I could still enjoy the sport, yet now it just doesn't interest me at all..any of it...so when I was watching Sky News a newsflash came on about Bolton leaving Carlton. I still felt nothing.


The club is inept and will continue to be inept whoever takes the place of Bolton. Why on earth do they hire someone who has never played at AFL level? Why did they trade away their first round draft pick? and on it goes.


In a way, there would be a sense of relief if they closed Carlton down if purely so that the AFL can't continue to make money out of the club. It would hurt the AFL more than it would hurt Carlton. Without Carlton the whole competition is kind of meaningless....but I guess the AFL can create a new shiny "Franchise" with arrows on their guernsey and call them the Tasmanian, Ballarat & Northern Territory electric flying wombats. They could have nice little mascots handed out to the kids, have a joint venture with the gold coast suns and destroy all that Carlton culture in the process..The marketing executives can guarantee their $500,000 pay packet as they have created something brand new, that captures a new market, a new demographic, like a shiny new freeway. Who needs culture when there is money to be made?
I'm not happy and I want everyone to feel the same as me.. ********
 

Gethelred

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Given the recent HOF additions - most of whom I never got to see - it got me thinking.

Ken Hunter played between 1975 and 1980, playing in one flag; Carlton then went on to win two more in 81 and 82. We have these legends of the game, most of whom I don't know, have never known; sides that were good enough to win 3 flags in 4 years.

Hawthorn of this century has of course won their 4 flags in 10 years - including a hattrick - and their players will indeed have their turn to become legends, coaches; you name it. There's more money in the game now, more standing to be had, and far more prospects both in and outside of footy, but it's certainly arguable that the current era is as biased in favour of certain sides (interstate sides, early adapters of the draft and/or sports sciences) the way that traditionally speaking it was towards us; that, alongside incredible hard work and excellence by the clubs in question.

So, my question is: how exactly did we fail? Was it in patches, or was it purely the salary cap which crippled us, bringing out the worst of Old Carlton and the need for the quick fix? And finally, when those Hawthorn players are being initiated as HOF'ers, can we see their club being likewise arrogant? Can we see the potential pitfalls of the future; can we see the rise and fall of other teams in the same way we ourselves fell?

In short, do you see footy as so completely different now to then, so as to make clubs permanent staples at the top of the ladder, or as it was before are there cycles and clubs that can exploit what seems at the time like an inch of advantage and turn it into miles of space between them and the next best?
 

mediumsizered

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So, my question is: how exactly did we fail? Was it in patches, or was it purely the salary cap which crippled us, bringing out the worst of Old Carlton and the need for the quick fix? And finally, when those Hawthorn players are being initiated as HOF'ers, can we see their club being likewise arrogant? Can we see the potential pitfalls of the future; can we see the rise and fall of other teams in the same way we ourselves fell?

In short, do you see footy as so completely different now to then, so as to make clubs permanent staples at the top of the ladder, or as it was before are there cycles and clubs that can exploit what seems at the time like an inch of advantage and turn it into miles of space between them and the next best?
I believe our failure can predominantly be put down to not embracing the draft after the players recruited pre-draft & in the early years of the draft started to filter out of the system.

The core of Geelong's premiership dynasty was born out of their drafting between 1996 & 2001, while Hawthorn started building the core of their premiership dynasty in 2001. St Kilda & Collingwood started embracing the draft in the early to mid '00s.

With our only really strong draft hand i.e. 2000 (3 x 1st round draft picks) we drafted Livingstone, Wiggins & Sporn. Such choices demonstrate to me that at that stage we were only paying 'lip service' to the draft, particularly when you compare this to our 3 x 1st round picks in 2015 (Weitering, McKay & C Curnow).

Even by the mid to late '00s, when we had early draft picks, although we chose the obvious #1 picks, we also went looking for some quick fixes with the recruitment of Judd, Warnock, McLean. Judd has been fantastic for the club & what we needed at a time when our club had very little credibility externally. The other 2? We all know how that ended.

The fact that it took us until 2015 to realise there are no quick fixes in building a premiership list basically put us almost 20 years behind the pacesetters. The fact that this realisation came at a time when Free Agency was available & TPP's are at extremely generous levels means you can't rely on a low finish on the ladder to give you access to players coming out of contract at the better clubs. Those players can easily find their way to clubs who are promising success, bypassing the struggling clubs who need them more.

The AFL will point to 3 different premiers over the last 3 years as proof of the evening out of the competition, yet since Sydney broke their record premiership drought in 2005, we have seen Hawthorn win 4 premierships, Geelong 3 & the Swans (including 2005) & the Eagles 2 each. Of these teams, Geelong & the Eagles look to be strong challengers again this year, Hawthorn are thereabouts while Sydney look to be finally bottoming out after playing finals in 15 of the last 16 seasons.

I would suggest that it is harder for a team to move from the bottom end of the ladder now than it has been at any other time since the mid 1990s.
 
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