Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread

[Opine]

Yet the final nail was not hit that week, but a few weeks later after a sub par showing against Essendon. And lo and behold, who is chosen after an exhaustive process, but an ex Carlton player who knows everyone already as coach?

Yes, Bolton was stubborn, and yes, Bolton certainly sowed the seeds of his own demise. But there's always more to the story, always something going on in the background. That is what I meant when I said that this is who we are.

It's also far, far easier to do what you're doing and blaming someone for their own fate, than observing the fact that they were never in control of it to begin with. There's even hints of it now, in how we're talking about the club on this very site; that Bolton was the coach that had to go to bring Teague to the helm. That's one hell of a parable, no? One recognizes the narrative pattern immediately. There's a sheepish ruefulness about how we speak about Bolton now, about how we react to his no longer being there, about how we committed to his vision purely only to seemingly perpetuate it under another leader.

I'll pipe down for now. This isn't my read on what's happening exactly, more my read of the worst case of what could be happening. We don't know, thus speculation is all we have; and I really don't like the fact that we have a marketer as our CEO, as that immediately renders any information that leaves the club (formally or informally) suspect.

Not sure whether the issue stems predominantly from a marketing background. But, as far as unity is concerned, prolonged consistency in Trigg's messaging, attested at very least by a fair reduction in leaks during his time in the chair, suggests that he was sincerely committed to the club's direction and method. Coach and others appeared similarly and jointly united. That speaks volumes.

 

[HARKER]

What it does mean, though, is that we - the club, and the fans - need to be very careful. We've thrown out the bathwater; we've used Bolton and Trigg to bring about the initial change, and to set the foundations. Let's not throw out due process and review for nepotism and micromanagement, which - if Old Carlton were to rear its head - is very much what could occur if things continue to revert.

I just have to keep saying - We're going to be disappointed.

If we look back on everything, on all the how's and why's for all things that came about, even in the past 4 years, we'd find patterns and for all the talk of unity over the past few years, we've hardly been unified at all. Pretending to be unified doesn't make it so.
........and Bolton wasn't the coach we had to have.......just one of very few we could have had.

 

[footyfan1978]

Bolton was vulnerable because after a 2 win season, he ordered the players to go defensive when we were 6 goals up against the Hawks.
He was a pig headed micro-manager, and that's only acceptable if you're a winner.
It was his own damn fault.

Pretty harsh summary and to be honest he was just head coach. It is the coaching group as a whole that failed the first half of 2019, not just Bolton. I did not feel it was all his own fault but he had to take on the most accountability as head.

He was the one that paid for it but others having say in coaching direction and some of more baffling structures continued when not helping us on field frustrated me. That was my view of being at games and watching the crazy structure up at Gold Coast from tv. The challenge as a fan watching on, is cannot really be sure whom has influence most on things that not working. But Bolton paid for it in end and as head coach, that the reality of what usually happens when pressure from outside football department starts to be felt.

I always, felt, with Barker being their longer I find it very hard to imagine he did not have a strong say in parts of how team structured. So I have an impression of what likely going on in coaching group without actually knowing for sure. I never was a fan of chasing McGovern as did not see the need at time but I understood he has ability so watched on to see how they made that work. All it did was make our team more top heavy imo and messed with Jack S role in team for months on end. Was that the coaching asking the list management team to get him.? Don't know and no longer super important as he is now a Blue player and we got to make most of him and Russell personally doing good job on that front to at least try to get him more up to adapting how he moves in a forward line that already has enough talls. My understanding and impression is it probably targeting McGovern for the forward line was the coaching group ask to list managers so for me that was wrong direction to start with. But what you described against Hawks I also saw unfold v Pies when we had control of game and had played good footy for young group to have a lead and then went defensive when should have continued to be more attacking baffled me at the game live. These were failures of coaching group. I think games like them and loss to Gold Coast earlier in season ruined the confidence of group of young players to have total faith in where the coaching group was leading them. It was too quick to be coached to go back into your shell and be defensive. Ultimately you need a few wins and good scores to re-establish a belief in what you being asked to do on field as young players. I am sure those youngsters wanted to believe in system being coached them but confidence in it from not seeing good scoring and wins is deflating. I think the games v Essendon and Saints later on, showed the confidence was shot and the call was made to not allow this decline or total stagnation to continue.

I think culturally Bolton set up a lot of great stuff but technically for team structure and strategy the whole coaching group failed each other. Thankfully Teague has shifted direction and simplified the direction and backed a bit more flair and instinct from players and not undone any of the good work done by Bolton in terms of culture of playing group.

Which only makes recent events more interesting in terms of Liddle. He was guy that ultimately pulled the trigger to let Bolton go and then months later made a really poor decision in terms of apparent communication with Ellis directly or his management that we would be really happy to welcome him on board as a free agent. If he approached Ellis before finding out SOS views gives impression Liddle got way too comfortable in his role that he stepped outside where his focus should be..

Fascinating time as fan to make of what really gone on without really knowing.

Then yesterday someone that says he has a high up employee as source in club suggesting SOS not totally made up mind to go after the drafts.
But previous week other regular ITK's basically saying SOS had made his mind up to go and press article by Jon Anderson kind of backed up what seemed to be going on without anyone from club itself saying anything.

Who knows, maybe Liiddle realised full errors of that Ellis mistake of his and full apologized to all within list management that bemused by that.
Even his earlier comments in year we would target small forwards, whilst correct did have funny reaction from Agresta I heard on a podcast with Cal Twomey that suggested they would rather Liddle not say such things.... Which was weird from Liddle as he was one sort of saying Judd made a bit of a mistake in media himself speaking in a way that not ideal but then Liddle makes a similar mistake soon after.

I wonder if both Judd and Liddle have tried to mend a few stuff ups with the football department and list managers during year and can all get back on same page. If SOS believes they can, maybe it possible he does not say goodbye to the task he took on at end of 2015 that long way from finished.

Lloyd has to get involved healing any wounds too it sounds from a few ITK's.

My trust in admin based on some of what ITK's posted and Anderson article last week is broken but there is still time for guys like President, Liddle and Lloyd to fix some of the poor decisions they should take on board to learn from and correct.

Thankfully I think Teague and Russell have not allowed any of those distractions above them to really affect the playing group since Bolton was parted with from all other footy news I heard from club.

 

[Windhover]

Anyone seen Gethelred and Windhover in the same thread at the same time?

Interesting if so since it would amount to a refutation of Pauli’s exclusion principle.

 

[thylacine60]

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Red_man2008]

Could levi Casboult be an AA full back?

 

[HARKER]

Which fool suggested we try Casboult at full-back early this year?

I wanted him in the back-line but I never expected it to be in the seniors.
Having watched him play back in the NB's on a couple of occasions in '18, he showed up a very confident player, albeit against inferior opposition....but there was something there, even for the reasons we said he wouldn't be able to play back.

Anyway, that's not too bad a dilemma we seem to have.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

There is no one else I would rather spend Christmas with x

#Crippsmas2019

 

[thylacine60]

Long as the ball never hits the ground.

 

[gab213]

Reckon loyal supporters understood exactly what was going on and were backing in the process and the guys driving it.

Vested interests and supporters who thought they were owed something for their ‘investment’ in the club led to Bolts being dismissed.

Patience has never been a hallmark of the Carlton faithful. When Teague is able to build on the very strong foundations laid by the unselfish direction Bolton took the club, the same people calling for Bolton to be sacked will point to the ensuing success as proof they were right to change coaches and conveniently ignore one could not happen without the other ... and Bolton may well have got there anyway.

I acknowledge all the hard work Bolton did at Carlton in his time and I'm not one of those who see his time as our coach as a failure.

I disagree though that him losing the job was all about vested interests and supporters. There was also a danger that if we didn't actually start to win some games that we would see players (including some of our best) leave the club in search of success. This was a very real concern.

At the end of the day, the club did what it felt it had to. To a certain extent what cost Bolton his job was his own naivety, something he pondered at the press conference to announce his departure.

I love what Bolton did for the club but all things considered, it was the right time to move him on.

 

[thylacine60]

AFL, Eddie Betts, Carlton, Carlton Academy, father-son, father-daughter, Adelaide, AFL 2020 | FOX SPORTS

Eddie Betts wasn’t just brought back to Carlton for his on-field brilliance.

coupler.foxsports.com.au

 

[Gethelred]

I just have to keep saying - We're going to be disappointed.

If we look back on everything, on all the how's and why's for all things that came about, even in the past 4 years, we'd find patterns and for all the talk of unity over the past few years, we've hardly been unified at all. Pretending to be unified doesn't make it so.
........and Bolton wasn't the coach we had to have.......just one of very few we could have had.

Harks, I enjoy your posts when you elaborate. Right up until you do so, I find them unnecessarily oblique, if not deliberately obfuscating your meaning.

Could you please explain - at length - why you feel this way, or at the very least direct me to posts which do?

 

[thylacine60]

you're just getting this now?

 

[footyfan1978]

You cannot be serious...

 

[mediumsizered]

Which fool suggested we try Casboult at full-back early this year?

I wanted him in the back-line but I never expected it to be in the seniors.
Having watched him play back in the NB's on a couple of occasions in '18, he showed up a very confident player, albeit against inferior opposition....but there was something there, even for the reasons we said he wouldn't be able to play back.

Anyway, that's not too bad a dilemma we seem to have.

Prior to this season the thing that made the thought of Levi playing in defence a scary prospect was his lack of mobility. To his credit (& probably Andrew Russell) he was fitter this season than he had been at anytime prior to this year & this made him a much better match up for opposition forwards. No longer was there the fear that he would be too slow.

 

[HARKER]

Harks, I enjoy your posts when you elaborate. Right up until you do so, I find them unnecessarily oblique, if not deliberately obfuscating your meaning.

Could you please explain - at length - why you feel this way, or at the very least direct me to posts which do?

I'm not going to spend time thinking of what I'm going to put forward, and if posts do come of oblique, grammar-poor or half finished....I don't care.

There's enough in that post you quoted to suggest there are reasons if one looks hard enough, as to why we end up where we do. Here are some strings;
Ratten....Malthouse....Bolton....and now Teague
Swann....Trigg.......Liddle
Hughes...Rogers....Silvagni

As far as being disappointed; Have heard some things that should they come about, some may be disappointed.

Disharmony is part of our DNA and has been for quite some time now.
What made us think it was all going to change so quickly? Because the club told us that we're bound by blue?

 

[JustaBattler]

There are two schools of thought as far as applied strategy goes in running organisations. One school sees strategy as being fixed in stone and an unwavering commitment to a grand plan. The other sees strategy as a process of 'logical incrementalism' - where adjustments are made according to best information available at any time...

There is no right or wrong before the fact - just harry hindsights afterwards. It is the way of the world and always will be so.

FWIW - Bolton lost my 100% support after the Hawthorn game - I dont think a bunch of kids can handle a bi-polar game plan - attack and smash 'em for one half and then go back into a shell and try and hold 'em out in second half ...can only speculate at what stage Bolton lost the players- but lose the players he did.

Everyone will have their own 'take' on what went wrong and what if anything is going right.

But I can't but laugh when I read the names Hughes/Rogers and SOS in the same sentence - I mean really? LOL

 

[HARKER]

But I can't but laugh when I read the names Hughes/Rogers and SOS in the same sentence - I mean really? LOL

Look. It's not about the quality of the individuals I'm talking about but the dire fate that befalls one after another.....and in the manner that fate plays out.
Forget the name Silvagni and insert whoever you want, but the same acrimony seems to come about within the CFC walls.
The only people we seem to be able to hold onto for any protracted period of time are 'yes-men'

It doesn't please me to make this observation and if one doesn't see this or refuses to see it then fine, but when we talk about unity - I can't help but laugh.
I mean really? (Won't include the *** Too childish.)

 

[Doro]

Look. It's not about the quality of the individuals I'm talking about but the dire fate that befalls one after another.....and in the manner that fate plays out.
Forget the name Silvagni and insert whoever you want, but the same acrimony seems to come about within the CFC walls.
The only people we seem to be able to hold onto for any protracted period of time are 'yes-men'

It doesn't please me to make this observation and if one doesn't see this or refuses to see it then fine, but when we talk about unity - I can't help but laugh.
I mean really? (Won't include the *** Too childish.)

That's the nature of professional sport. Players and staff come and go, either having shown some degree of success or not. Hughes and Rogers should have been sent packing much sooner but were given time unfortunately. As for this supposed current disunity, I guess we find out how much there is to it after the draft.

 

[HARKER]

That's the nature of professional sport. Players and staff come and go, either having shown some degree of success or not. Hughes and Rogers should have been sent packing much sooner but were given time unfortunately. As for this supposed current disunity, I guess we find out how much there is to it after the draft.

It doesn't have to be bitter at every call. This comes about for bad culture and administration.

Hughes and Rogers should have been sent packing?
Ratten was sent packing...Malthouse was sent packing...Bolton was sent packing...McKay was sent packing...Trigg...etc etc
We even had recruiters that could stand to be with us for more than a year and were either sent packing or couldn't wait to leave.

Doesn't it get back to to question; How did all these hopeless individuals come to be involved at our club?
Were they hopeless beforehand or did we make them hopeless and if so.........How did we do that?

It's not always about getting the best heart for a transplant. It's about getting the right one. I don't think we're very good at this though...proof...pudding...

 

[Metalcrusher]

Pretty harsh summary and to be honest he was just head coach. It is the coaching group as a whole that failed the first half of 2019, not just Bolton. I did not feel it was all his own fault but he had to take on the most accountability as head.

He was the one that paid for it but others having say in coaching direction and some of more baffling structures continued when not helping us on field frustrated me. That was my view of being at games and watching the crazy structure up at Gold Coast from tv. The challenge as a fan watching on, is cannot really be sure whom has influence most on things that not working. But Bolton paid for it in end and as head coach, that the reality of what usually happens when pressure from outside football department starts to be felt.

I always, felt, with Barker being their longer I find it very hard to imagine he did not have a strong say in parts of how team structured. So I have an impression of what likely going on in coaching group without actually knowing for sure. I never was a fan of chasing McGovern as did not see the need at time but I understood he has ability so watched on to see how they made that work. All it did was make our team more top heavy imo and messed with Jack S role in team for months on end. Was that the coaching asking the list management team to get him.? Don't know and no longer super important as he is now a Blue player and we got to make most of him and Russell personally doing good job on that front to at least try to get him more up to adapting how he moves in a forward line that already has enough talls. My understanding and impression is it probably targeting McGovern for the forward line was the coaching group ask to list managers so for me that was wrong direction to start with. But what you described against Hawks I also saw unfold v Pies when we had control of game and had played good footy for young group to have a lead and then went defensive when should have continued to be more attacking baffled me at the game live. These were failures of coaching group. I think games like them and loss to Gold Coast earlier in season ruined the confidence of group of young players to have total faith in where the coaching group was leading them. It was too quick to be coached to go back into your shell and be defensive. Ultimately you need a few wins and good scores to re-establish a belief in what you being asked to do on field as young players. I am sure those youngsters wanted to believe in system being coached them but confidence in it from not seeing good scoring and wins is deflating. I think the games v Essendon and Saints later on, showed the confidence was shot and the call was made to not allow this decline or total stagnation to continue.

I think culturally Bolton set up a lot of great stuff but technically for team structure and strategy the whole coaching group failed each other. Thankfully Teague has shifted direction and simplified the direction and backed a bit more flair and instinct from players and not undone any of the good work done by Bolton in terms of culture of playing group.

Which only makes recent events more interesting in terms of Liddle. He was guy that ultimately pulled the trigger to let Bolton go and then months later made a really poor decision in terms of apparent communication with Ellis directly or his management that we would be really happy to welcome him on board as a free agent. If he approached Ellis before finding out SOS views gives impression Liddle got way too comfortable in his role that he stepped outside where his focus should be..

Fascinating time as fan to make of what really gone on without really knowing.

Then yesterday someone that says he has a high up employee as source in club suggesting SOS not totally made up mind to go after the drafts.
But previous week other regular ITK's basically saying SOS had made his mind up to go and press article by Jon Anderson kind of backed up what seemed to be going on without anyone from club itself saying anything.

Who knows, maybe Liiddle realised full errors of that Ellis mistake of his and full apologized to all within list management that bemused by that.
Even his earlier comments in year we would target small forwards, whilst correct did have funny reaction from Agresta I heard on a podcast with Cal Twomey that suggested they would rather Liddle not say such things.... Which was weird from Liddle as he was one sort of saying Judd made a bit of a mistake in media himself speaking in a way that not ideal but then Liddle makes a similar mistake soon after.

I wonder if both Judd and Liddle have tried to mend a few stuff ups with the football department and list managers during year and can all get back on same page. If SOS believes they can, maybe it possible he does not say goodbye to the task he took on at end of 2015 that long way from finished.

Lloyd has to get involved healing any wounds too it sounds from a few ITK's.

My trust in admin based on some of what ITK's posted and Anderson article last week is broken but there is still time for guys like President, Liddle and Lloyd to fix some of the poor decisions they should take on board to learn from and correct.

Thankfully I think Teague and Russell have not allowed any of those distractions above them to really affect the playing group since Bolton was parted with from all other footy news I heard from club.

I bloody hope so FF

 

[Doro]

It doesn't have to be bitter at every call. This comes about for bad culture and administration.

Hughes and Rogers should have been sent packing?
Ratten was sent packing...Malthouse was sent packing...Bolton was sent packing...McKay was sent packing...Trigg...etc etc
We even had recruiters that could stand to be with us for more than a year and were either sent packing or couldn't wait to leave.

Doesn't it get back to to question; How did all these hopeless individuals come to be involved at our club?
Were they hopeless beforehand or did we make them hopeless and if so.........How did we do that?

It's not always about getting the best heart for a transplant. It's about getting the right one. I don't think we're very good at this though...proof...pudding...

Our recruiting and list management was sub standard before SOS arrived with nothing resembling k.p.i's for the entire period of their employment. Coaches and department heads commonly get somewhere in the 3-5 year range to achieve and are usually re-watch signed with positive progress. The playing list this time around is much better placed than the previous challenge under Ratten, time tells how far we get.

 

[JustaBattler]

Look. It's not about the quality of the individuals I'm talking about but the dire fate that befalls one after another.....and in the manner that fate plays out.
Forget the name Silvagni and insert whoever you want, but the same acrimony seems to come about within the CFC walls.
The only people we seem to be able to hold onto for any protracted period of time are 'yes-men'

It doesn't please me to make this observation and if one doesn't see this or refuses to see it then fine, but when we talk about unity - I can't help but laugh.
I mean really? (Won't include the *** Too childish.)

People come and go all the time from most places Harks - it is just the way it is these days - not just football Clubs.

 

[HARKER]

People come and go all the time from most places Harks - it is just the way it is these days - not just football Clubs.

People that come and go with dignity appreciate it and it makes for a smoother transition for the next employee.
Gain a bad reputation though for mismanagement of people and the top tier may not be so keen to look at you as an employer....unless you bump that cash.
I know you understand this. Having and maintaining a good reputation stands for plenty....in commerce..in industry and at silly little football clubs.


EDIT: Just an aside -

I drove to our match against The Saints and listened to MLG being interviewed.
He was resolute in his backing of Bolton and for the journey the CFC embarked upon and nothing was going to sway this.
I wrote on this board as to just how happy I was to hear of what sounded like a club that knew what they were doing.

9 days later, Bolton was sacked.

 

[Nori]

Look. It's not about the quality of the individuals I'm talking about but the dire fate that befalls one after another.....and in the manner that fate plays out.
Forget the name Silvagni and insert whoever you want, but the same acrimony seems to come about within the CFC walls.
The only people we seem to be able to hold onto for any protracted period of time are 'yes-men'

It doesn't please me to make this observation and if one doesn't see this or refuses to see it then fine, but when we talk about unity - I can't help but laugh.
I mean really? (Won't include the *** Too childish.)

It's a good observation and probably typical of most competitive organisations. Heads roll when performances are below expectations.

I would hazard a guess that churn will decrease as the Club's win/loss ratio improves. If there has been disunity over the last few years, it only makes the achievement of completing a ground up list rebuild all the more impressive. The next major test for the club will be how it handles a period of success because this is when Carlton of old has become arrogant and complacent.