Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread

[Stamos]

Your last point, is a contradiction I have seen many times of late. Put games into our youth, but we want Eddie. Somewhat staggering


I understand you may not agree, but before you reply, consider a guy like Newman

Well, Eddie is coming for a lot more than his playing, but he's also a genuine goal kicker. I'm not really fussed about missing on Butler. (Deluca over Pickett is a different matter).

Newman was a great, cheap pick-up for a year when our backline was decimated. I don't think you want too many of those on your list though. And we might be getting Newnes.

 

[Doro]

SOS would have more authority in the club than Lloyd, even though Lloyd is his boss.

That’s got to cause some friction.

SOS should take over as the footy director I reckon and Judd can move more into a commercial role on the board. That would address the conflict of interest and also retain a valuable asset.

Board members don't get paid. SOS would still like to be gainfully employed I suspect.

 

[Arr0w]

Well, Eddie is coming for a lot more than his playing, but he's also a genuine goal kicker. I'm not really fussed about missing on Butler. (Deluca over Pickett is a different matter).

Newman was a great, cheap pick-up for a year when our backline was decimated. I don't think you want too many of those on your list though. And we might be getting Newnes.

Again another contradiction stamos

No to Butler, yes to Newnes

How do they differ as such....

 

[Nori]

Board members don't get paid. SOS would still like to be gainfully employed I suspect.

There was quite a bit of discussion about SOS wanting to put his feet up and concentrate on his business interests.

If I was the President there is no way I'd be letting SOS walk to North Melb. The board members might not get paid, but I'm sure there are plenty of lucrative deals to be had.

 

[thylacine60]

Our list build would look very different if the AFL didn't step in with the Coniglio deal, if Essendon didn't screw around with Daniher/Sydney and when we recruit Martin.

There are successful clubs out there who have recruited really good players of high status like this and they haven't had to deal with this sort of crap.

I still think we are going to be in a really good situation come the end of next year when a lot of top talent wants to come to us after we have a strong season. But in saying that it might not happen. A lot riding on 2020, by my calculations this is the season we should be coming good. If we don't then SOS probably goes, if we do then the rebuild looms as a really successful operation.

We've got ourselves in a position where we are not desperate for certain types, we're keen to upgrade on what we have. We say we need small forwards, we already have small forwards, what we should be saying is we would like elite small forwards. Get Martin along with Betts, Gibbons and a fit Cuningham along with the addition of a top junior talent and a more developed Owies and Lang as depth we have something. That's why we're aiming for elite and there wasn't much of that around apart from Papley and due to Sydney and Essendon's circus he became unavailable.

We've been criticised. Wait for the Essendon fans when they lose Daniher for nothing after being offered multiple first round picks this year... Wait for Papley to try and come to us next year which is pretty much a given.

I think we all need to relax and that includes the club and just let things play out next season. We will have our day.

this - love it

 

[Nori]

man shuts down woman - social commentators race to seek precedent.....

man defends himself from baseless accusations - protagonist happens to be a woman.....

 

[Stamos]

Again another contradiction stamos

No to Butler, yes to Newnes

How do they differ as such....

Not a contradiction, I’m not fussed about either of them. One difference is that Newnes would be free, and has played a lot more at AFL level (for an obviously much weaker team). Butler cost a 3rd rounder.

 

[Funk]

Our list build would look very different if the AFL didn't step in with the Coniglio deal, if Essendon didn't screw around with Daniher/Sydney and when we recruit Martin.

There are successful clubs out there who have recruited really good players of high status like this and they haven't had to deal with this sort of crap.

I still think we are going to be in a really good situation come the end of next year when a lot of top talent wants to come to us after we have a strong season. But in saying that it might not happen. A lot riding on 2020, by my calculations this is the season we should be coming good. If we don't then SOS probably goes, if we do then the rebuild looms as a really successful operation.

We've got ourselves in a position where we are not desperate for certain types, we're keen to upgrade on what we have. We say we need small forwards, we already have small forwards, what we should be saying is we would like elite small forwards. Get Martin along with Betts, Gibbons and a fit Cuningham along with the addition of a top junior talent and a more developed Owies and Lang as depth we have something. That's why we're aiming for elite and there wasn't much of that around apart from Papley and due to Sydney and Essendon's circus he became unavailable.

We've been criticised. Wait for the Essendon fans when they lose Daniher for nothing after being offered multiple first round picks this year... Wait for Papley to try and come to us next year which is pretty much a given.

I think we all need to relax and that includes the club and just let things play out next season. We will have our day.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Funk]

That and people assume these "Plan B" players will just obediently wait until the last minute of the trade period in the hope that Carlton's Plan A will fall through so they can get a call-up.

Maybe we'd have been better off locking down Butler early "just in case", but I don't think you can approach the trade period with that mindset - trading in a lesser version of every preferred player just in case you can't get them. We had a chat with Butler early, we probably had him in the backs of our minds as an "option" if we got an early "No" on Papley, but St Kilda offered him a spot and he (fairly) took his chance there. Good luck to him, he's going to be behind 6 other small forwards on that list, just like he was at Richmond.

Betts in the bag.
Papley as the premium target.
DFA'a and Draft as a fallback.

That's a fair plan in my book for a very niche role in the team. We have smaller types, just not dedicated, specialist small forwards. We don't need 6 of those, 2-3 will do the job just fine, with at least one of those in the VFL at all times.

We need 2 x gun small forwards by 2022.

We can improvise until the right ones develop or are gettable at the right price.

 

[Arr0w]

Not a contradiction, I’m not fussed about either of them. One difference is that Newnes would be free, and has played a lot more at AFL level (for an obviously much weaker team). Butler cost a 3rd rounder.

Thought it had nothing to do with saving currency?

Anyway, moving on before another contradiction appears

 

[Funk]

At this stage of the rebuild I believe you improve the 22-30 positions on the list by bringing in top 18 talent and organically moving current top 18 talent out of the firsts, then they fight like tooth and nail to get back in.

We were hunting for top talent in trade period, not 22-30

Wines maybe was one, he’s in a long term contract like Papley so I feel he would have been no different outcome unless we paid way way overs. As it was, if Dodo accepted a deal Pap was ours. You win some, you lose some.

Butler, Cutler, Gray et al aren’t consistently top 18 talent imo

Agree.

SOS was on the correct path.

I think Butler is the perfect example for us to follow.

In hindsight bringing in Butler would have been a mistake.

Hate to say it but we need to follow Tigers example.

Stack was brought in (best 18 quality).

Pushed Butler out.

We don’t want to bring in the “Butlers” (don’t need more C graders).

We need to keep bringing in the “Stacks”. I.e A & B graders that push the C graders out.

 

[Accidental genius]

Agree.

SOS was on the correct path.

I think Butler is the perfect example for us to follow.

In hindsight bringing in Butler would have been a mistake.

Hate to say it but we need to follow Tigers example.

Stack was brought in (best 18 quality).

Pushed Butler out.

We don’t want to bring in the “Butlers” (don’t need more C graders).

We need to keep bringing in the “Stacks”. I.e A & B graders that push the C graders out.

So why can tiggies find the A&B graders and we can’t? Do we not have enough staff to track enough potential recruits or do we not have the skill to assess them adequately?

 

[Funk]

It was a pretty shallow trade pool to be honest.

Wasn't much up for grabs.

Agree.

Media folks are creaming their pants re Saints.

Really?

Lose their best forward & solid mid/forward & 4 time B&F.

Bring in:

Young KPD
Gun wing
C grade forward
Average HBF
Ancient injury prone ruck

Ain’t gonna make a whole lot of difference to performance in 2020.

(admittedly freed up Stevens $800k and Acres $500k from TPP which is a serious plus)

 

[Funk]

So why can tiggies find the A&B graders and we can’t? Do we not have enough staff to track enough potential recruits or do we not have the skill to assess them adequately?

Excellent question.

 

[JustaBattler]

So why can tiggies find the A&B graders and we can’t? Do we not have enough staff to track enough potential recruits or do we not have the skill to assess them adequately?

My guess: Their list is in very good shape so they can 'afford' to invest in higher risk maybe higher return players. Our list is a few years behind the tuggers in development - so the risk of introducing a 'bad boy' is probably deemed too high. Thomas was apparently let go because of his off field antics - is a pretty good indicator of Carlton's tolerance for indiscretions at this stage of Club development.

 

[Stamos]

So why can tiggies find the A&B graders and we can’t? Do we not have enough staff to track enough potential recruits or do we not have the skill to assess them adequately?

A lot of them are not A or B graders, but they play their role in the team.

How do you reckon a bloke who could manage 6 highly gettable shots in a big game, and come away with 5 points would manage with us, or another weaker team?

 

[btdg]

So you honestly think we are going to finish bottom four again next year?

Sadly I do.

I honestly hope we do better but I think our lack of list depth hurts. We have a really nice young emerging core, but lack depth and quality around them.

Think of our best 22 - on paper, it’s starting to look competitive as Weitering, Curnow, etc start to hit their prime.

Now imagine it with 8 random injuries, cos that’s where we will be at round 6. Who comes in for injuries 5-8? It’s either list cloggers or hoping that guys like Macreadie or Polson offer something at that point.

That’s where nailing a few more rookie/late picks or nailing a few of those trade targets would have helped. Add Papley, Martin and Shiel and suddenly we’re not far off a contender - not because of best 22 impact, but because at round 9 the difference between Papley and Polson is immense.

The other hope is we get lucky with injuries - if Doc, Marchbank and Williamson get anywhere near full health we look better too.

For me, I sadly think it’s another 7-8 win year in a very balanced comp, and that puts us bottom 6, with the rise starting as our second batch of new draftees (the 2016 crop) hit their primes in 2021. Would love to be surprised but I think we need a lot to go our way for that to change.

 

[Accidental genius]

A lot of them are not A or B graders, but they play their role in the team.

How do you reckon a bloke who could manage 6 highly gettable shots in a big game, and come away with 5 points would manage with us, or another weaker team?

call them what you will but these players just won two flags. they can obviously adapt to a game plan. i consider that being a good thing. all forwards have bad days. think you are being too critical.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Sadly I do.

I honestly hope we do better but I think our lack of list depth hurts. We have a really nice young emerging core, but lack depth and quality around them.

Think of our best 22 - on paper, it’s starting to look competitive as Weitering, Curnow, etc start to hit their prime.

Now imagine it with 8 random injuries, cos that’s where we will be at round 6. Who comes in for injuries 5-8? It’s either list cloggers or hoping that guys like Macreadie or Polson offer something at that point.

That’s where nailing a few more rookie/late picks or nailing a few of those trade targets would have helped. Add Papley, Martin and Shiel and suddenly we’re not far off a contender - not because of best 22 impact, but because at round 9 the difference between Papley and Polson is immense.

The other hope is we get lucky with injuries - if Doc, Marchbank and Williamson get anywhere near full health we look better too.

For me, I sadly think it’s another 7-8 win year in a very balanced comp, and that puts us bottom 6, with the rise starting as our second batch of new draftees (the 2016 crop) hit their primes in 2021. Would love to be surprised but I think we need a lot to go our way for that to change.

Shiel hardly made a middle of the road team in Essington any better, so i am not sorry at all we missed out on him.

 

[BlueTongue]

Caro might be on the money this time..

I read somewhere before this year's Trade Period had even begun that questions had been asked around SOS' ability to land the players we have gone after in the last couple of years. I doubt whether the trade period just gone would have helped the cause.

 

[Stamos]

Shiel hardly made a middle of the road team in Essington any better, so i am not sorry at all we missed out on him.

He would have been a better player with us due to fit, but Papley and Coniglio are much greater losses.

 

[Stamos]

For me, I sadly think it’s another 7-8 win year in a very balanced comp

So, even though we had a lot of injuries to key players this year, you don’t think we’ll improve at all, despite not having a 1-11 Bolton handicap for half a season?

 

[JoeyPBLUES]

Shiel hardly made a middle of the road team in Essington any better, so i am not sorry at all we missed out on him.

Yep. So much this

 

[JustaBattler]

So, even though we had a lot of injuries to key players this year, you don’t think we’ll improve at all, despite not having a 1-11 Bolton handicap for half a season?

Carlton's backline is significantly strengthened by the inclusion of Docherty/Williamson and Marchbank in 2020. IF we take out Thomas - that would still be a 2 player improvement.
Midfield is improved by Martin to the extent he plays there - but the rest is all up to another pre-season into young ones- Murphy and Ed aren't getting any younger. So Carlton hasn't (really) improved its midfield by new better players - or even cover for who is there....
Forward line adds Betts maybe Martin , Charlie and Cuningham back- huge improvement.

So our problem is likely between the arcs - that is what Teaguey has to manage - and he has Barker and Stanton on the case....

 

[Jabba73]

So our problem is likely between the arcs - that is what Teaguey has to manage - and he has Barker and Stanton on the case....

Oh * ...