Strategy The case for a third tall forward

[PA88]

Why wouldn't Paul Stewart be an option ahead of Butcher? Is it the height we need more than the reliability of the kick at goal?

I wonder where Stewart's career is heading. Possibly may seek to move.

 

[Seanybruz]

I wonder where Stewart's career is heading. Possibly may seek to move.

I keep hearing the same rumour from several different sources saying that he'll be at the Cows next year.

 

[Shaucob_Burjan]

Paul Stewart isn't the crashing and bruising "third" tall forward we need, he's a defensive forward to take on players who sit on their own in our forward line.

We need a proper crashing type, the closest we have are Butcher or Shaw.

 

[Andre]

I keep hearing the same rumour from several different sources saying that he'll be at the Cows next year.

The Crows don't lack for tall forwards, even if Podsaily retires end of this year. Plenty of other sides you'd think would be able to offer him better money and more game time. Though you can never discard the 'LOL! We got a Port Powa Est 1996 player for nuthin!!! Haha' motive for Triggy and Not So to placate the masses awhile longer.

 

[PowerKidd]

I keep hearing the same rumour from several different sources saying that he'll be at the Cows next year.

P.Stew for L.Johnson seems like a fair trade

 

[Seanybruz]

The Crows don't lack for tall forwards, even if Podsaily retires end of this year. Plenty of other sides you'd think would be able to offer him better money and more game time. Though you can never discard the 'LOL! We got a Port Powa Est 1996 player for nuthin!!! Haha' motive for Triggy and Not So to placate the masses awhile longer.

I don't think it's with the intention as a tall forward, they probably see him more as a Reilly replacement or backup utility & cover for Henderson who spent a large portion of this year with a broken leg.

I hope he stays here but I wouldn't begrudge him if he left for more opportunity, if he was to move interstate I reckon he'd be a good fit at Melbourne given he's mates with Vince.

P.Stew for L.Johnson seems like a fair trade

Would be fair enough but going on the past both clubs don't really look like good trading buddies, it'll probably be more likely they get Stew as a free agent & we'll pick up Johnston as a DFA after they likely delist him.

I know a few here don't rate Johnston but with his set shot accuracy he'd be handy depth here & I dare say he'd probably be getting a game now. Trade for Lycett/Gorringe, bring in Johnston then add another KPP or 2 in the draft & we'd be stocked up for talls.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

What gets me the most about the presser when asked about another tall forward, is Ken saying he understands that structurally it would be very beneficial, but for their development, he wants to keep them in the SANFL. Butch needs to get 2 or 3 great games in a row "for his development".

...but he's not getting those 2 or 3 great games in a row. Maybe it isn't what's best for his development. Not trying to make excuses for Butch, but he's always seemed to be better suited for AFL football than SANFL football, it's been talked about many times since 2011.

Ken knows far more than I do obviously, but things just don't add up. It's almost like a chicken and egg scenario. Butch needs to develop to play AFL, but he's not getting the development that perhaps he needs at SANFL level, so he's just stuck in limbo.

 

[Portia]

If Hinkley is taking the view that he is developing his list, then its important to maintain standards.

If effort is a non-negotiable, then its non-negotiable and thats that.

The biggest flaw of Williams was when he had different rules for different people. You get that when you start making exceptions and being inconsistent.

It should be a motivator for Butch that the team clearly needs him and he isn't performing well enough to get a game.

 

[Pedro59]

Who is the better pack mark out of Butch and Shaw?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

We have 3 KPFs playing in the SANFL already. I don't think we need more backup in that area.

And what does that say about our recruiting and spacing of the age difference of different KPFs?? As I have said before you keep picking them to find the good ones and you have them spread out over each 3 year age group ie 18-21, 22-25, 26-29, 30-33.

 

[StrappingTape]

Can't really put your hand up when there was no game on the weekend to play in. We need a tall, I don't care who it is, ****ing stick Clurey up there just get one in.

 

[Macca19]

...but he's not getting those 2 or 3 great games in a row. Maybe it isn't what's best for his development. Not trying to make excuses for Butch, but he's always seemed to be better suited for AFL football than SANFL football, it's been talked about many times since 2011.

Yeah not sure I agree with that

 

[Peck]

If we bring in a third tall IMO it should be Paul Stewart.

Right now I'd much prefer a second ruckman who can also play in the backlines. Honestly I think two "Talls" is fine considering we have guys like Monfries, Gray, and Wingard who play well above their height. Maybe when Westhoff and Schulz both play terrible it would be nice to have a third guy come in and play well, but even then I'd rather just move Trengove/Hombsch/Lobbe up forward.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't really noticed any moments where I go "Darn! I wish we had John Butcher/Mason Shaw leading into that space instead of Monfries!" while on the other hand I've had plenty of moments loving the extra spread we are getting from Mitchell and White, as well as the clearance work of lads like Aaron Young, Monfries, and Gray.

That said, as of this moment I would agree we need a third tall forward, as Westhoff is playing 2nd ruckman instead of Trengove, but otherwise it seems of little import to me. It could be a slight mistake, or it might not be, the complexity of whether adding the third tall and losing a 10th midfielder is worth it is rather beyond me, so I'm going to let the guys who coach professional level footy decide rather than calling them pig-headed for not doing what a some bloke on the internet think is best.

I definitely agree with Portia, and RussellEbertHandball that we should have at least one 25 year old KPF though. That seems like a massive oversight to me.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Going by Ken's presser I doubt we'll see Mason Shaw debut this year & I'm assuming he's just put a line through Butcher. P Stew or... Clurey comes in down back & another defender like Hombsch for instance goes forward for stints ala Trengove recently.
I have no idea if Hombsch could do it I'm just musing don't shoot me down

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

If we bring in a third tall IMO it should be Paul Stewart.

Right now I'd much prefer a second ruckman who can also play in the backlines. Honestly I think two "Talls" is fine considering we have guys like Monfries, Gray, and Wingard who play well above their height. Maybe when Westhoff and Schulz both play terrible it would be nice to have a third guy come in and play well, but even then I'd rather just move Trengove/Hombsch/Lobbe up forward.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't really noticed any moments where I go "Darn! I wish we had John Butcher/Mason Shaw leading into that space instead of Monfries!" while on the other hand I've had plenty of moments loving the extra spread we are getting from Mitchell and White, as well as the clearance work of lads like Aaron Young, Monfries, and Gray.

That said, as of this moment I would agree we need a third tall forward, as Westhoff is playing 2nd ruckman instead of Trengove, but otherwise it seems of little import to me. It could be a slight mistake, or it might not be, the complexity of whether adding the third tall and losing a 10th midfielder is worth it is rather beyond me, so I'm going to let the guys who coach professional level footy decide rather than calling them pig-headed for not doing what a some bloke on the internet think is best.

I definitely agree with Portia, and RussellEbertHandball that we should have at least one 25 year old KPF though. That seems like a massive oversight to me.

If you were at the ground and saw Wingard flying for everything and Monfries being the lead up forward so many times and the ball kicked hard and high were he needed to be full stretch to touch the ball you might change your opinion. On a wet night like last Saturday Wingard should have been crumbing and snapping goals and not trying to take mark of the century when we bombed it in. We had 7 rushed points and Essendon 3. The main reason was we just kicked the ball too deep instead of landing it 10-15m out or bombed it without thinking and the taller Eseendon defenders just jumped over our little blokes and smashed it through for a behind. A 3rd tall may have meant the ball went forward not back in those contested pack situations and a smart small forward might have crumbed a goal by playing front and centre.

I wrote the following in the Q&A's for Geoff Parker thread last November before the draft.......
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/q-a-with-geoff-parker.1041481/page-4#post-31000026
Our depth chart for true KPF's not a Westhoff utility or Redden part timer, should look something like

18-19-20 year olds 1 or 2
21-22-23 year old 1
24-25-26 year old 2
27-28-29 year old 1 or 2
30+ year old....... 1 if they are a champion of the club

That would give us 6 to 8 true KPF's. If there are a couple who are solid players but not a great KPF's then you can either turn them into KPD's or trade them and they hold their value.

If we had 4, 5 or 6 true KPF's that were 21 years old now, then I would be happy with Mason Shaw as the only 18-20 year old KPF on our 2014 list, and not worry about a KPF this year because supposedly there are plenty next year.

 

[Adz2332]

Going by Ken's presser I doubt we'll see Mason Shaw debut this year & I'm assuming he's just put a line through Butcher. P Stew or... Clurey comes in down back & another defender like Hombsch for instance goes forward for stints ala Trengove recently.
I have no idea if Hombsch could do it I'm just musing don't shoot me down

If hes put a line through Butch and refuses to debut SHaw its a joke

 

[Power Girl]

If Hinkley is taking the view that he is developing his list, then its important to maintain standards.

If effort is a non-negotiable, then its non-negotiable and thats that.

The biggest flaw of Williams was when he had different rules for different people. You get that when you start making exceptions and being inconsistent.

It should be a motivator for Butch that the team clearly needs him and he isn't performing well enough to get a game.

I agree 100% so then should Monfries be dropped? Maybe Wingard? Hamish in the last month (not so much on Sunday) Maybe i'm not watching closely but their effort seems down. They may just be cooked and look like they're not trying.

Do you honestly think Kane Mitchell who tries his guts out every week is still a better option?

I thought Butcher gave great effort and endeavour the very few games he has gotten this year?

 

[Portia]

I agree 100% so then should Monfries be dropped? Maybe Wingard? Hamish in the last month (not so much on Sunday) Maybe i'm not watching closely but their effort seems down. They may just be cooked and look like they're not trying.

Big difference between AFL effort and SANFL effort. Expecting quality SANFL effort is not unreasonable.

Do you honestly think Kane Mitchell who tries his guts out every week is still a better option?

Shit no, but...

1) It doesn't matter what I think
2) If the reason for this decision is that Hinkley is taking a longer, developmental view rather than throwing his expectations out the window for a short term win, I support that, even if it sucks right now.

I thought Butcher gave great effort and endeavour the very few games he has gotten this year?

`Effort' is not just about appearing willing and running a lot, its about mental application too.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

I agree 100% so then should Monfries be dropped? Maybe Wingard? Hamish in the last month (not so much on Sunday) Maybe i'm not watching closely but their effort seems down. They may just be cooked and look like they're not trying.

Do you honestly think Kane Mitchell who tries his guts out every week is still a better option?

I thought Butcher gave great effort and endeavour the very few games he has gotten this year?

He must be on the edge although he is carrying some sort of niggle right? he can hardly get a metre on an opponent just get's caught over & over it's alarming

 

[Power Girl]

Big difference between AFL effort and SANFL effort. Expecting quality SANFL effort is not unreasonable.

Shit no, but...

1) It doesn't matter what I think
2) If the reason for this decision is that Hinkley is taking a longer, developmental view rather than throwing his expectations out the window for a short term win, I support that, even if it sucks right now.

`Effort' is not just about appearing willing and running a lot, its about mental application too.

Your first point is so true. I am just frustrated. But i was infinitely more befuddled and frustrated and totally ****ed off by Chocco's coaching strategies and plans so yes go Ken and Co. you will bring it home.

 

[PA88]

Butcher is getting plenty of opportunity at SANFL level to prove himself. This season I think he's been good in most games and a couple of games he's been one of our best. He does take marks, he does kick some snaps, he does apply forward pressure but when we've needed him to kick a clutch goal he's not even gotten close, and in some games he's avoided kicking for goal with the regular expected choice of the drop punt. What do people think Hinkley is wanting to see from Butcher to warrant selection?

 

[Pedro59]

You can structure a forward line however you like but if not enough of them are presenting on leads it's going to fall apart, particularly in slippery conditions. Essendon's forwards got set shots on goal because they took marks on the lead, while ours seemed more intent on sitting back and trying to take mark of the year on just about every forward entry. Schulzy's as guilty of this as anybody.

This is a good post
All I saw was long bombs to congestion and rebound heaven
Unless we had 3 Hawkins or Plugger lockers we still would have struggled
Maybe a Paul Stewart who can actually kick straight breaking fast from the pack may helped I dunno
It was more our poor F50 entry of which we were much better early in the year , our structure , our linking up etc
I too still want a good tall up there AND to rectify these entry probs but I like Portia's point about consistency and standards that Ken is seeking
To me our speed ,skills and fitness is more about running in to gaps to receive than ( and knowing where to run ) than a mondries trying to out pace a back with a ball sent over the head
If we have to go long and bomb in surely the ability to out pack mark or win the contested mark al la Hawkins is is the sort of tall needed
Who is a better contested mark against a Talia or Glass
Butcher or Shaw?

 

[1954]

I'm not too sure Port would be interested in Lewis Johnston, no matter how good a kick a player is he is still worth sfa if he can't get the ball to kick it.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Why wouldn't Paul Stewart be an option ahead of Butcher? Is it the height we need more than the reliability of the kick at goal?

I wonder where Stewart's career is heading. Possibly may seek to move.

Because Stewart is mid height only 6 or 8 cms taller than Monfries who doesn't crash packs or le with the gorilla defenders.

 

[Relativity]

If Hinkley is taking the view that he is developing his list, then its important to maintain standards.

If effort is a non-negotiable, then its non-negotiable and thats that.

The biggest flaw of Williams was when he had different rules for different people. You get that when you start making exceptions and being inconsistent.

It should be a motivator for Butch that the team clearly needs him and he isn't performing well enough to get a game.

Trengove played little more than a season of SNAFL sans injury and was hardly burning it up when he was promoted. There comes a point with tall players where they learn more and faster in a more competitive environment. I acknowledge your "gold card" argument but sometimes the better good is served by making exceptions. Sometimes coach's "non negotiables" are counter productive (Walker/Craig). I don't think Butch lacks motivation, effort or skill. He just needs a confidence boost that would come with being told he's got a spot 'till Carlile returns.