Strategy The case for a third tall forward

[brad the brain]

A readymade big boy would be nice, but once Harvey has some semblance of a tank he'd be very handy as the deep clunk option.

It's not as if he needs to go on the 5-year Falloon programme of water cress and ricecakes.

Sometimes you need to throw the sheep in front of the wolves.
Sometimes boys can turn to men.

 

[tribey]

Sometimes you need to throw the sheep in front of the wolves.
Sometimes boys can turn to men.

Would be completely on board with that re Butcher/Shaw.

Harvey would blow a gasket by quarter time. He'll get there though.

 

[Portmanteau]

Kernfucious say: How do you stick to your structures, when you don't have one?


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[Power_boy89]

I hope we are super aggressive and relentless in trading, recruiting, poaching , heck even kidnapping a tall man who can play. We have been exposed in this area in just about all our losses and want it dealt with end of this season. Jared Redden would've been good around now.

 

[Seanybruz]

I like & will continue to support our coach but I don't like his stubbornness over player selection, lose 2 tall players replace them with one doesn't fill me with confidence of maintaining good team balance.

I don't even think Choco would've cut his nose off to spite his face by playing a 1 tall forward setup like we've been doing the last few weeks, he played the Hoff regularly in his first year & he was a lanky stick.

How is it possible that Butcher or Shaw couldn't offer us more than Mitchell? I really feel for Schulz, at this rate he'll be destroyed by 3-1 contests before he gets close to a grand final.

 

[AdamMarrett]

Kenny's post game presser said why Butch and Mason Shaw aren't playing.According to that he wants Butcher to have a run of 2/3 solid SANFL games, I'm going to assume he hasn't done that, as for Mason Shaw he thinks he is not quite mentally and physically ready and doesn't want to throw him to the wolves so to speak.So with what we have available the structure we are using is the best we have got with the talls we have available.We as fans just have to be patient with Mason Shaw, and lets hope Butcher can get going in the SANFL to get into the side.I feel Kenny wants a 3rd tall but feels we don't have one in the form, or with the size, mental toughness and endurance to contribute enough.Having heard his post game presser Butcher not playing made sense to me.

 

[edgie]

I like & will continue to support our coach but I don't like his stubbornness over player selection, lose 2 tall players replace them with one doesn't fill me with confidence of maintaining good team balance.

I don't even think Choco would've cut his nose off to spite his face by playing a 1 tall forward setup like we've been doing the last few weeks, he played the Hoff regularly in his first year & he was a lanky stick.

How is it possible that Butcher or Shaw couldn't offer us more than Mitchell? I really feel for Schulz.

I reckon in his farewell game vs Collingwood we only went with one tall (Hoff maybe?) as Schulz was dropped to make way for Josh Carr (sentimental value)

 

[edgie]

Kenny's post game presser said why Butch and Mason Shaw aren't playing.According to that he wants Butcher to have a run of 2/3 solid SANFL games, I'm going to assume he hasn't done that, as for Mason Shaw he thinks he is not quite mentally and physically ready and doesn't want to throw him to the wolves so to speak.So with what we have available the structure we are using is the best we have got with the talls we have available.We as fans just have to be patient with Mason Shaw, and lets hope Butcher can get going in the SANFL to get into the side.I feel Kenny wants a 3rd tall but feels we don't have one in the form, or with the size, mental toughness and endurance to contribute enough.Having heard his post game presser Butcher not playing made sense to me.

No it makes no sense. Butch was having a good run early in the year. Shaw is hitting one now. He is making excuses. KPF develop better at AFL level. He was at Geelong when they persisted and persisted with Hawkins til he took off. He was at Gold Coast when their talls were spuddy liabilities but they had to front them up for structural purposes and now Lynch, Day, and Dixon are starting to look alright. You gotta throw them to the wolves. Why is it the forwards have to be dominating in SANFL but mids and smalls can get called up on good ordinary performance?

 

[AdamMarrett]

No it makes no sense. Butch was having a good run early in the year. Shaw is hitting one now. He is making excuses. KPF develop better at AFL level. He was at Geelong when they persisted and persisted with Hawkins til he took off. He was at Gold Coast when their talls were spuddy as all spuds but they had to front them up for structural purposes and now Lynch, Day, and Dixon are starting to look alright. You gotta throw them to the wolves. Why is it the forwards have to be dominating in SANFL but mids and smalls can get called up on good ordinary performance?

Mate I don't know ask the coaches that.....I just don't agree with all of this knee jerk criticism of Ken all of a sudden when pre the Sydney game it was firing on all cylinders and life was bliss.I'd love a 3rd tall forward but we don't have a viable one atm according to Ken so his word is good enough for me

 

[edgie]

Mate I don't know ask the coaches that.....I just don't agree with all of this knee jerk criticism of Ken all of a sudden when pre the Sydney game it was firing on all cylinders and life was bliss.I'd love a 3rd tall forward but we don't have a viable one atm according to Ken so his word is good enough for me

Well I don't agree with backing the coach in 100% when I don't believe his reasons for doing things. We have players capable of coming in and playing 3rd tall. The Sydney game looks good because we all came to play and it masked over the cracks, also a tin pot size ground that doesn't allow for too many leading forward types. Choco's word was not good enough for me at times, Primus's word was not good enough for me at times, and they both lost it. I'm concerned Ken is in the process of losing it.

 

[PowerBaz]

Well I don't agree with backing the coach in 100% when I don't believe his reasons for doing things. We have players capable of coming in and playing 3rd tall. The Sydney game looks good because we all came to play and it masked over the cracks, also a tin pot size ground that doesn't allow for too many leading forward types. Choco's word was not good enough for me at times, Primus's word was not good enough for me at times, and they both lost it. I'm concerned Ken is in the process of losing it.

Geeez people,after watching Kens presser I think it's clear he knows what he is doing. He can only instruct. Who knows,maybe he sees butcher and shaw both in at the end of the year.... With schulz? We are just having our slump, we just need to deal with it.

 

[Jim Dixon]

Mate I don't know ask the coaches that.....I just don't agree with all of this knee jerk criticism of Ken all of a sudden when pre the Sydney game it was firing on all cylinders and life was bliss.I'd love a 3rd tall forward but we don't have a viable one atm according to Ken so his word is good enough for me

To be fair the #playbutcher movement started up about 15 minutes after Butcher was dropped. Even when we were beating Hawthorn and were 2 games clear people have been making the very valid point that our forward structure isn't what we'd like it to be.

I heard Ken's presser as well. I'd like one of the journos to ask Ken what tribey said- that when Lobbe went down we picked Renouf for the structure, not because of form, so why not pick a forward to replace a forward?

I think Ken Hinkley is a genius who's going to win us multiple premierships but I don't think he's beyond question.

 

[Macca19]

A 3rd tall forward isn't going to do anything when we play a zero man forward line.

 

[*PAF]

Whilat it was a wet game Essendon's tall KPFs were a main reason for many of their goals and we now have Wingard having to play a Brebert type role more often than not.

 

[edgie]

A 3rd tall forward isn't going to do anything when we play a zero man forward line.

If Hoff didn't have to plug holes and Schulz work to the defensive half to provide a target we might be able to leave SOMEONE home or there was anyone left



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[Port01]

Just a matter of numbers. Key forwards have to present up the ground, or we get the indecision off half back we hate.
We won't get anywhere with a 1 tall forward line, regardless of conditions.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

I'd love someone to add up how much time Shulz or Westhoff were off the ground and how much time Westie was either in defence or ruck.

I have a feeling it would add up to a significant portion of the game where we were playing one tall forward at best.

I said before the game we should have had Butcher in for Mitchell.

 

[mic59]

Sometimes you need to throw the sheep in front of the wolves.
Sometimes boys can turn to men.

That was why I wanted us to get Ben Brown with our second pick. North Melbourne had 47 and I'm sure Harvey would still have been available at 52.

Brown's not a pure forward but he has shown he can be a target, can mark and can kick straight. And he could take the weight of Lobbe without Westhoff having 3 jobs.

 

[Young Gun #6]

I'd love someone to add up how much time Shulz or Westhoff were off the ground and how much time Westie was either in defence or ruck.

I have a feeling it would add up to a significant portion of the game where we were playing one tall forward at best.

I said before the game we should have had Butcher in for Mitchell.

Schulz had 100% TOG and Westhoff had 91%

 

[scotty13]

In Kern we trust...
but I would like to see a few issues looked at, most importantly the third tall. I dont care if we put an injured Redden up forward who won't move but that third option frees up Schulz a bit, allows Westy to do what he does best and just roam the ground. The third tall doesn't need to kick goals, but their presence up forward will enable up to score more and the opposition to score less.

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

"Not being ready for AFL football" is a kind way of Kenny saying I don't trust Shaw. The thing that made ken so good in 2013 was he backed his players in no matter what size or age they were... So mason Shaw isn't ready for AFL a 197cm 97kg man but jake Neade and Sam Colquhoun were last year?

 

[Sneeky]

Usually I feel comfortable leaving Gus as the stay at home forward. Seemed to work last year a lot but he's been down on form this year, especially since the whole "notice" thing. We defs need another tall down there to take the pressure off. Throw Paul Stewart down there if you don't have faith in Butch. He's a great kick and will work his guts out

 

[edgie]

Also I think thread should be renamed 2nd tall forward. I've lost all faith in Hoff as the 2nd tall, his best forward game this year came in round 1 where he played as 3rd tall behind Butcher.

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[raman]

Also I think thread should be renamed 2nd tall forward. I've lost all faith in Hoff as the 2nd tall, his best forward game this year came in round 1 where he played as 3rd tall behind Butcher.

I think the whole point is that Hoff is a classic third tall. So bringing in a second true key forward makes him the third which is what he should've been all along.

 

[PA88]

I've finally worked out what we have been doing wrong compared to the start of the season and even an extra tall in the F50 wouldn't have helped enough
It seems our ball movement in to the F50 has changed from brilliant linking up through the guts and wings and then lowering the eyes to hit up a forward small or large to bombing in long somehow
This style needs 3 Shultzes and even then it's rebound heaven
The start of the year our F50 entries were precise and shorter and we used our speed and run and playing on fast to link up faster
I remember thinking thank god we have gone away from the ol long bombs to the double teamed forwards
that other teams were doing

I agree. It looked this way last night. This is the first issue. How we are not running in numbers like we were and how we are bombing it.

I also agree a third tall is needed but I'm not convinced of who it should be. Do we need a 195+ or can we afford another 188+ like Stewart? It should be a player that can be depended upon to kick well.