Analysis The Disciples of Daniel the Diminutive, elite footballer

[Fossie 32]

Fair call Libba. I have more noticed the damage he now does when those possession are either very high back, wing or high forward.

If he only got 50% of the possessions he does deep in defence much higher up the ground he could become an even more important weapon, who would be hard to match up on.

It's all about being better than the opposition. We were excellent from the back half in the second part of 2019 with Crozier and Durea both very good users, imagine if they were part of linking in Daniel wing/centre running forward or better still within distance of goal.

The only time his kicking has a weakness is deep when he tries for too much distance. I am more concerned about this when he is deep back tahn whether he gets a mis match, mainly because the main reason he does is his work rate back is better than most

It’s all about being better than the opposition.

Tink about dat.

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

We should be grateful Bevo hasn’t tried him in the ruck!

 

[lachy]

Time for a thread name change.

As should the Bevo out thread if we were really serious about threads reflecting discussing opposing views being respectful to both other posters with differing views and one of only 2 of OUR premiership coaches in the VFL/AFL era. One out of two is better than nothing, I like this thread name now though it could be " Where should Caleb play to be the most influential for the team" probably encapsulates the majority of debate in this thread

 

[ScragCity]

I still think Daniel's best position is deep defence. Like really deep. Like, Caleb sitting in the goal square in our D50, one-out with the oppositions biggest key forward. That's where he shines. That's his area of strength.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

As should the Bevo out thread if we were really serious about threads reflecting discussing opposing views being respectful to both other posters with differing views and one of only 2 of OUR premiership coaches in the VFL/AFL era. One out of two is better than nothing, I like this thread name now though it could be " Where should Caleb play to be the most influential for the team" probably encapsulates the majority of debate in this thread

Not sure it encapsulates the majority of debate.

This thread was started due to some believing that CB playing in defence wasn’t going to work. It has been proven that Caleb was not only not a liability down back but also that he plays the role at an elite level, better than anyone in recent memory. Probably on par with Mitchell at the very least imo.

You could probably start a new thread discussing his change in role if you wanted.
Not sure how much traction it would get though. It would be like starting a Naughton to the Backline thread on the back of an 80 goal season.

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

Not sure it encapsulates the majority of debate.

This thread was started due to some believing that CB playing in defence wasn’t going to work. It has been proven that Caleb was not only not a liability down back but also that he plays the role at an elite level, better than anyone in recent memory. Probably on par with Mitchell at the very least imo.

You could probably start a new thread discussing his change in role if you wanted.
Not sure how much traction it would get though. It would be like starting a Naughton to the Backline thread on the back of an 80 goal season.

I just re-read the first page. For the most part the debate is really interesting and not so much whether he was a liability down back (as the title implied) but whether his strengths would be better used further up the ground.
I still think its a debate and i think lachy has summed it up really well a couple of times in this thread

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I just re-read the first page. For the most part the debate is really interesting and not so much whether he was a liability down back (as the title implied) but whether his strengths would be better used further up the ground.
I still think its a debate and i think lachy has summed it up really well a couple of times in this thread

That’s been part of the topic since this thread was started but the gist of this thread and discussions spreading across a number threads in the 9-12mths prior was whether or not Daniels role down back was suited and whether he was a liability. You’d have to admit that it’s been put to bed?

It seems that a few naysayers have moved their own goal posts since. The majority it’s pretty obvious they don’t want to admit they were wrong.

The reality is that Daniel was playing fairly average football as a HF/Mid/Wing prior to the end of 2018. Fast forward a few weeks and he was excelling in his role down back. The calls for a change back to the role he was playing is quite bizarre. Regardless of improvement as a whole.

We can’t just relocate his current output to the fwd half of the ground. It just doesn’t work like that. So many more variables playing that sort of role.

So, not having his current output fwd of centre I can’t understand why anyone would want to remove him from the perfect football he’s playing atm.

Like I said, calling for Naughts to be sent back after an 80 goal season. It’s quite ludicrous.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I just re-read the first page. For the most part the debate is really interesting and not so much whether he was a liability down back (as the title implied) but whether his strengths would be better used further up the ground.
I still think its a debate and i think lachy has summed it up really well a couple of times in this thread

Out of interest, what does Daniel playing across the HF line and wing look like for you? What would be your expectations?

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

Out of interest, what does Daniel playing across the HF line and wing look like for you? What would be your expectations?

I would expect his disposals to drop to the 17-22 range (normal length quarters), but you'd want him to be having 5 ish inside 50s each week (had 7 last week which is massive number and massive outlier). If he could replace some of the Macrae and Hunter inside 50s, we'd be having more shots at goal and from better positions.
And of course, if we were having trouble getting it out of the back 50, he could always be moved back.

 

[ScragCity]

I'm pretty sure the entire reason we tried Daniel in the backline was that he had been ineffective as a midfielder post 2016. It's not like we have never tried him on a wing or whatever. He's been more effective as a defender than he ever was as a midfielder.

 

[Yojimbo]

Like I said, calling for Naughts to be sent back after an 80 goal season.

Must have missed that season, unless you meant thirty goal season. Natural defender.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I would expect his disposals to drop to the 17-22 range (normal length quarters), but you'd want him to be having 5 ish inside 50s each week (had 7 last week which is massive number and massive outlier). If he could replace some of the Macrae and Hunter inside 50s, we'd be having more shots at goal and from better positions.
And of course, if we were having trouble getting it out of the back 50, he could always be moved back.

CD averaged 2.3 inside 50’s, 0.5 goal assists, 6.5 goals, 4.8 score involvements in his games between debuting in 2015 and his move to defence at the end of 2018.

Could he grow those numbers if moved fwd of centre now? Possibly.
He would need to improve his output considerably for it to be an improvement on he’s previous efforts though.

Do you believe his 2015-18 output is of more benefit to the side than what he’s delivering at the moment?

 

[lachy]

CD averaged 2.3 inside 50’s, 0.5 goal assists, 6.5 goals, 4.8 score involvements in his games between debuting in 2015 and his move to defence at the end of 2018.

Could he grow those numbers if moved fwd of centre now? Possibly.
He would need to improve his output considerably for it to be an improvement on he’s previous efforts though.

Do you believe his 2015-18 output is of more benefit to the side than what he’s delivering at the moment?

Irrelevant statistics unless you are saying Daniel has not improved all elements of his football nor developed skills he did not have when he first started.

It is not simply he has moved back that has made him the player his is now and is becoming, it is his work in developing his overall game and the move back at that stage of his career assisted him with this.

He is a significantly better player now and could be even more beneficial to the team and its success higher up the ground where his skills would directly relate to scoring from both where he would position the ball in the forward line as well as more direct opportunities for himself.

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[ScragCity]

Irrelevant statistics unless you are saying Daniel has not improved all elements of his football nor developed skills he did not have when he first started.

It is not simply he has moved back that has made him the player his is now and is becoming, it is his work in developing his overall game and the move back at that stage of his career assisted him with this.

He is a significantly better player now and could be even more beneficial to the team and its success higher up the ground where his skills would directly relate to scoring from both where he would position the ball in the forward line as well as more direct opportunities for himself.

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

It's pretty obvious that Caleb's disposal going inside 50 would be beneficial. But you also have to admit that taking him out of the backline is going to reduce our ability to move the ball from D50 effectively. So maybe you get more quality inside 50s at the expense of less inside 50s total because we aren't moving to ball fluently from defence. Is there a net benefit to be had by moving him further up the ground? That's debatable, and unless Bevo trials it then we will never know, nor will we have any data to make good quality analysis. I'm in the camp who believes those kicks coming out of D50 are both the most important and hardest to execute, even more so than the kick inside 50.

When kicking inside 50, as long as you don't hit an opposition defender on the chest then it's been relatively effective. A lot of our entries end up in a stoppage which is usually a pretty good result. Any time the ball is in your 50 you're happy. Conversely, when you're coming out of D50 and looking to go through the corridor there is absolutely zero room for error. Not only do you have to hit your team mate lace-out, but you also need to make sure the ball doesn't float in the air. Usually if your team mate doesn't get a clean mark you can expect a turnover and and high probability of a score against.

In the end I think it will come down to a matter of taste. I'm happy enough for our midfielders to just bomb it inside 50 as long as we have Naughton and Bruce down there to bring it to ground.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Irrelevant statistics unless you are saying Daniel has not improved all elements of his football nor developed skills he did not have when he first started.

It is not simply he has moved back that has made him the player his is now and is becoming, it is his work in developing his overall game and the move back at that stage of his career assisted him with this.

He is a significantly better player now and could be even more beneficial to the team and its success higher up the ground where his skills would directly relate to scoring from both where he would position the ball in the forward line as well as more direct opportunities for himself.

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

They’re relevant to the examples of output that Slithering states in his post.

Moving to defence didn’t make him the player he his now. He plays the role so well because of the player he’s always been. This is why he had immediate impact when moving back. This is what some posters including yourself struggle to understand.


You must watch different games to me Lach.
The only areas of his game that have improved significantly are his ground ball defence and some improvements in his aerial game. The rest was fairly established, hence his move to defence making sense.

 

[lachy]

The only areas of his game that have improved significantly are his ground ball defence and some improvements in his aerial game. The rest was fairly established, hence his move to defence making sense.

Absolutely elite below the Knees from very good, left foot is now as good as his right, hands are as good as his feet, defensive pressure has improved, better at contested football and positioning as well as those you have mentioned.

Go back and watch the 2016 finals series, he is a significantly better all round player

 

[Charlie Bucket]

He is a significantly better player now and could be even more beneficial to the team and its success higher up the ground where his skills would directly relate to scoring from both where he would position the ball in the forward line as well as more direct opportunities for himself.

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

This is just incorrect. Some of his games last year were head and shoulders above most of his games this year.

You don’t want to believe that though because it goes against your theory that he hasn’t always been good in this role and that he’s only developed recently.

 

[lachy]

It's pretty obvious that Caleb's disposal going inside 50 would be beneficial. But you also have to admit that taking him out of the backline is going to reduce our ability to move the ball from D50 effectively. So maybe you get more quality inside 50s at the expense of less inside 50s total because we aren't moving to ball fluently from defence. Is there a net benefit to be had by moving him further up the ground? That's debatable, and unless Bevo trials it then we will never know, nor will we have any data to make good quality analysis. I'm in the camp who believes those kicks coming out of D50 are both the most important and hardest to execute, even more so than the kick inside 50.

When kicking inside 50, as long as you don't hit an opposition defender on the chest then it's been relatively effective. A lot of our entries end up in a stoppage which is usually a pretty good result. Any time the ball is in your 50 you're happy. Conversely, when you're coming out of D50 and looking to go through the corridor there is absolutely zero room for error. Not only do you have to hit your team mate lace-out, but you also need to make sure the ball doesn't float in the air. Usually if your team mate doesn't get a clean mark you can expect a turnover and and high probability of a score against.

In the end I think it will come down to a matter of taste. I'm happy enough for our midfielders to just bomb it inside 50 as long as we have Naughton and Bruce down there to bring it to ground.

Our lack of scoring and accuracy is a significant weakness and is directly related to how the ball enters the forward line. Having your elite disposer of the ball releasing it into the forward line will significantly improve both our scoring when inside 50 as well as accuracy.

I am not happy enough for our midfielders to just bomb the ball in, it is what creates our scoring issues and is too easy to defensively set up against

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Absolutely elite below the Knees from very good, left foot is now as good as his right, hands are as good as his feet, defensive pressure has improved, better at contested football and positioning as well as those you have mentioned.

Go back and watch the 2016 finals series, he is a significantly better all round player

You’ve gone back 5 years. No ones saying he hasn’t improved since then. We’re talking the last 18mths.

You’re selling him short with some of those improvements. He’s been outstanding by hands long before moving back and don’t see the significant changes in those other areas although they have improved as is what happens with most players hitting the 5-6 year mark.

 

[lachy]

This is just incorrect. Some of his games last year were head and shoulders above most of his games this year.

You don’t want to believe that though because it goes against your theory that he hasn’t always been good in this role and that he’s only developed recently.

How is it incorrect??

Where is the relevance in my statement that has any relationship between last year and this?? Last time I looked last year was 2019 and your stats were 2015 to 2018

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Our lack of scoring and accuracy is a significant weakness and is directly related to how the ball enters the forward line. Having your elite disposer of the ball releasing it into the forward line will significantly improve both our scoring when inside 50 as well as accuracy.

I am not happy enough for our midfielders to just bomb the ball in, it is what creates our scoring issues and is too easy to defensively set up against

Inside 50 delivery isn’t determined by the ball carrier, it’s determined by the fwd leading patterns and how the defence sets up. Daniel doesn’t just waltz in the fwd half and start lacing our our fwds. The most likely scenario is that the majority of his inside 50’s would be just the same as the ones his teammates deliver now.

 

[lachy]

You’ve gone back 5 years. No ones saying he hasn’t improved since then. We’re talking the last 18mths.

You’re selling him short with some of those improvements. He’s been outstanding by hands long before moving back and don’t see the significant changes in those other areas although they have improved as is what happens with most players hitting the 5-6 year mark.

Again where ave I talked the last 18 months? It appears you have a need to be right and somehow prove my opinions wrong

 

[lachy]

Inside 50 delivery isn’t determined by the ball carrier, it’s determined by the fwd leading patterns and how the defence sets up. Daniel doesn’t just waltz in the fwd half and start lacing our our fwds. The most likely scenario is that the majority of his inside 50’s would be just the same as the ones his teammates deliver now.

Really so ultimately the person with ball is not the one in total control over where it goes to in the forward line and someone with better skill cannot put it in a better position for the forward?

 

[Charlie Bucket]

How is it incorrect??

Where is the relevance in my statement that has any relationship between last year and this?? Last time I looked last year was 2019 and your stats were 2015 to 2018

You’re confused Lach. My discussion with Slith was what it would take for his role in the fwd half to improve from what it was pre 2018.
You are talking about his improvement since being moved back. Completely different things.

Daniels game improved dramatically the moment he was moved back. It would take a blindfold to not be able to see that.
Since then he has improved his game but not as significantly as the improvement we saw with a change of position.

 

[wild side]

Great player, just hope he doesn't show it on Sunday.
One of my faves in the comp.
Hope he wins a Norm Smith one day