The Disillusioned Thread

[Horaceg]

Doesn't make sense. It's great being a believer and I wish I shared your optimism, as we are all linked by the fact we want Collingwood to win. I just can't see it. I think we are going backwards. Obviously I hope Adams, Kennedy and Freeman are 200 game stars for us. For now I don't think they are. (Freeman is obviously too early to call)

We were fourth halfway through 2014 with a fully revamped game plan and a bunch of new kids coming through. The end if the year was a disaster, the kids ran out of steam, crippled with injuries. Ben Reid didn't get on the park, Swannie was clearly struggling, too much left to too few.

I'm feeling positive that we will start to get it right, learn from the second half. The improvement will come from within any trades and draft picks from here should add value. Keep the faith, don't worry about who is not there. Go Pies, I'm looking forward to seeing this team mature

 

[Gone Critical]

Wow, are you asking us, or telling us. You seem to be getting inspired into negativity by rumours. That is your first mistake. How about waiting to see what ACTUALLY happens, not what you HEARD might be happen.

NQR pickups that are role players like Lynch, Young didn't cost us anything apart from there pay packet. Your right they are not setting the world on fire. But given the cost to us going out of the club, it was well worth it. White was a trade. Sure, he isn't Jaryd Roughead, but as a THIRD tall, who can go through the ruck, I would choose him hands down than Premiership player Leigh Brown. He was a cult favourite without being even as consistent as White. White and pick 6 (Matt Scharenberg), cost us 11 (Dom Sheed), 31 (Malcom Karpany) and 49 (Dylan Main). That is basically gaining White for nothing.

You deal with our young kids like they are all on an equal level. Kennedy and Broomhead are our top picks. They will be 200 game players and there is no doubt in a lot of supporters that watch the VFL regularly. Thomas and Williams are upgrade rookies. If other sides could get a hold of these two players for a rookie pick, 17 teams would be lining up out the door to do so. They have shown plenty to suggest that they could make it. Seedsman was not a rookie, but was a very late pick 76.

Your statement we are losing our stars is just plain wrong. Who? Wellingham, who has not fired a shot at West Coast we got Ben Kennedy pick 19 for him. The embarrassment that is Dale Thomas, who got smashed by Tom Langdon pick 65, we got Nathan Freeman Pick 10 for him, and cut A SHIT LOAD of cash off our salary cap. Chris Dawes who has a similar output than Jesse White at Melbourne, where he is either a first or second tall forward, we got pick 20 who we used on Tim Broomhead, and I am excited about what he will give us in years to come. Heath Shaw who was a disruptive influence, but I will give you the fact that he is a loss but we got Taylor Adams who at least plays the team game, and will get better as time goes on.

And if your in the group that hate that the Pies delisting Jolly, Krakouer and Didak, they were finished. They were old, and no other club picked them up.

So I disagree that the club has lost the plot when it comes to list management so far.

Lumumba has become a nut job, and we may get Varcoe for him. Good swap I would of thought. I watched the North V Geelong game the other day, and it gave me the opportunity to watch Varcoe and Greenwood. They both impressed me greatly. Lumumba had me mighty pissed off when he was walking around in the backline while teams were kicking goals against us in the last few games when we needed him to step up when others went down.

Beams we will get compensated for him, or we keep him. I suggest the former will happen. The compensation will be from the Suns I believe. Greenwood goes three quarters of the way there. The other quarter, I think we will get there. I think Beams may well be a little over rated by Collingwood fans.

I am totally against your OP, I think we are in good hands. What were you saying in 04 and 05 after we made to GF's and slipped right away? Were you saying then how we lost the plot? Buckley is going through a dip after a similar success period in 10, 11, but he was able to get a finals finish out of the side in the two proceeding years in 12 & 13, and now have dropped out. Next year, I reckon we will make finals again, and in 16 we will be strong again.

I share a lot of FnBs concerns here. Mostly that we have lost too much top end talent too quickly and we are over confident about our crop of youngsters. As an example I would use your assertion that Broomhead and Kennedy are almost guaranteed 200 game players. We have only had 24 such players come through the club in the last 50 years. They are a scarce commodity.

I would be happy if those 2 kids become as good players as Lumumba has been in his career. That would be a clear win for us. Although there are different reasons behind them the loss of Daisy, Shaw, Beams and Lumumba all in prime years has been a mini disaster and I believe has taken away our chance to contend again soon. I suspect our balance is thrown out team wise and it will hurt us for a good while.

A few seasons ago we had clearly the best Collingwood team I have ever seen playing for us. Only 1970 comes close for talent on the park. It takes a lot of good management, recruiting , development and luck to get to that place. Our luck has deserted us 2012-14 but I am worried so have a few other elements of the equation. That team should have been kept together longer. That it didn't may have been unavoidable but it will probably be a long time , maybe a generation or 2 , before we have another list as good.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

You think we are worse off with Broomhead, Kennedy and Freeman for the next 10 years than with Sharrod (who cant get a game at West Coast), Dawes (who hasn't been anything special at the Dees) and Daisy (who is a shadow of the player he was in 2010-2011)? Those 3 premiership players haven't shown us anything worth missing since they left.

You don't know that Kennedy, Broomhead and Freeman will get to the level that Wellingham has reached, let alone Daisy.

 

[Morganashlee]

I don't know if Freeman will ever play a game but I'm going to lean towards yes.

I don't think either of those who have left will recapture their best form at their new clubs so I don't feel we are missing out.

Broomy and Kennedy have slightly lower disposal averages than Daisy and Sharrod in their first season but much higher goal averages.

 

[DNine]

I share a lot of FnBs concerns here. Mostly that we have lost too much top end talent too quickly and we are over confident about our crop of youngsters. As an example I would use your assertion that Broomhead and Kennedy are almost guaranteed 200 game players. We have only had 24 such players come through the club in the last 50 years. They are a scarce commodity.

I would be happy if those 2 kids become as good players as Lumumba has been in his career. That would be a clear win for us. Although there are different reasons behind them the loss of Daisy, Shaw, Beams and Lumumba all in prime years has been a mini disaster and I believe has taken away our chance to contend again soon. I suspect our balance is thrown out team wise and it will hurt us for a good while.

A few seasons ago we had clearly the best Collingwood team I have ever seen playing for us. Only 1970 comes close for talent on the park. It takes a lot of good management, recruiting , development and luck to get to that place. Our luck has deserted us 2012-14 but I am worried so have a few other elements of the equation. That team should have been kept together longer. That it didn't may have been unavoidable but it will probably be a long time , maybe a generation or 2 , before we have another list as good.

Well we will make it 150 then, I am sure you'll come up with a hell of a lot more in that bracket. Cloke and Swan will get to 200 soon.

Why the need to panick, when we missed our first final for 9 years by ONE game. It is just the mindset of Collingwood fans that bother me. We are either strong, or we are terrible. There is no in between for a lot of people. I did type supporters, but it flys against the meaning of the word to call you supporters.

A supporter does what the word says, "SUPPORT". And that doesn't mean just when things are strong. ANYONE can do that. You show how good a supporter you are when the chips are down.

I love my kids, and my family yeah, but when one of them does something undesirable, I don't label them as someone that is going to be that way forever, or even a long time. I have FAITH in them to not be like that. I support their development, and view them in a positive light. We always tell our kids that when they do something wrong, that this behaviour is not them. We believe that they are good people, and focus on the positives with them to make them value the positive more so than the negative. Sometimes you wish you can just say, You're and idiot, you have no idea what this life is all about, and your behaviour shows that you have the attitude to do the wrong thing forever, and to learn the right way is perhaps beyond you. Not that we have a lot of trouble with our kids at all.

But the reason I said that, is that Football clubs are the same. You want to love a football club, you view them in the best possible light you can, and you fully believe that a downturn in form is only temporary. They will bounce back in the quickest possible time. I just don't get the doom and gloom mindset of some supporter. To be convincing yourself we are in bad hands, and we are going to be down for a long long time, where is your faith, where is your purpose to bother?

I don't know what people look at when they see our club deal with issues. Buckley has had me off side a little in the year. I believe he has some stuff to learn, but give him a break, he is not going to come in as a new coach, and be a master straight away. That is not going to happen.

So what, we need a bit of a rebuild, are we going to get all sad about the losses, or are we going to be celebrating of the wins? I looked back at our season on Brownlow night, and it wasn't as doom and gloom as it seemed at the time. Fans hang EVERYTHING on winning, and can not see the little things that are important.

Like Broomhead's introduction into the game. How excited would we be when thinking Broomhead if instead of performing great in a losing side, he helped a winning one. No difference in output for the kid himself, just different circumstances surrounding him.

Langdon, how awesome was his first year?

Witts developing nicely, to be tracking right behind Mumford by a few years. Mumford may not be an awesome world beating ruck, but he does great things for the teams he has played for.

Grundy had a down year. They call it the second year blues, but don't look at this year as to what he will do, look at last year. If you could put last years thoughts into the thoughts of the guy, you'd be still wrapped. He needed to learn a few things this year, not the end of a career for the bloke.

Regardless of what doom and gloom supporters think, Keeffe and Frost did a great job considering their age, and how much pressure was put onto them by top sides. They stood up well. Talk that they are "no good", is just so far from the truth, it is ridiculous.

The injuries we had, and to only miss finals by one game is incredible. One mark to Young instead of spilling it, and we made finals.

Young did some stupid things, but so too did Shaw. Young is not quite in the same league, but Adams will be. Young however, is a handy foot soldier, when we are up and about. He may struggle to lift when we are getting beaten, but he is not a dud. Nor is White. As a third forward like he is supposed to be, when everyone is not expecting him to jump up and kick four goals a game, he will be good for one or two. Good teams have them.

Kennedy, Elliott, Thomas, Seedsman, Williams, Freeman, Scharenberg, they are all coming. It reminds me of back in 2004-2005-2006 when everyone was saying the Pies are shit. We had some faith in young guys coming up, but we were losing Clement, Rocca, Buckley, Licuria, O'Bree, Fraser and the like too quick. The young guys weren't ready to take the big guys on. Help we are drowning, we will be down here forever.

Up come Pendlebury up come Thomas, Johnson, Cloke, Brown, Toovey. How is it different. So in 2006, we were eliminated, in 2015 we may be around the same level, may just make it, just to bow out cheaply. In 06, we were dejected. In 06 we took 4 years to win a flag. In 15, we may be 3-4 years away. So what! It is what it is.

We were NOT going to win a flag playing Rocca until he was 35, or Buckley until he was 38, or Clement longer than he wanted to go. We were not going to win a flag by letting players tear the fabrics of the club. Tarrant was sent to Fremantle, because he was like Shaw is now, a trouble maker.

Sure, this time around is a little different. We are calling on the end of more top players that COULD go on with the club, but are getting something for them before they are worthless. And they are screaming out to move them on too. And the results since being moved on, is proof to that. Beams going, is once in a blue moon thing to happen. I rated Paul Williams as highly as Beams. Clement and Holland for Williams, and that was ok. The world didn't crumble in. Buckley, Williams, Brown was equal to Pendlebury, Beams and Sidebottom. Rocca/Cloke, Presti/Brown. It is all just history repeating stuff. Ride the wave, and stop stressing that the wave sometimes is at a low point where it is hard to get up to surf. Life is not a constant source of good times and great success.

 

[Anzacday]

I don't know if Freeman will ever play a game but I'm going to lean towards yes.
I don't think either of those who have left will recapture their best form at their new clubs so I don't feel we are missing out.
Broomy and Kennedy have slightly lower disposal averages than Daisy and Sharrod in their first season but much higher goal averages.

From the mouths of Lappin & Hine, (and I am paraphrasing) "Freeman is a clearance brute & Kennedy is a clearance machine"
Broomy, well we've all seen his skills, we'll be fine

 

[DNine]

You don't know that Kennedy, Broomhead and Freeman will get to the level that Wellingham has reached, let alone Daisy.

We don't know that Daisy was ever going to be crap at Carlton and frustrate the supporters that he is one of their highest players that only gives a good performance now and then, or Wellingham hardly plays a game for West Coast either. But we do know that if they were retained, we'd be whinging about that, as neither player would of stood up to pull us out of the issues we had this year either.

Who knows, Wellingham and Thomas may never play a game from this point. Both may have complications in the preseason, with their already broken bodies, and find it hard to get it right. That doesn't mean it will happen, as there is no guarantee that Scharenberg or Freeman will burst onto the scene in the next year or two, or Kennedy becomes a Shane Crawford type.

That is just the crap thing about FUTURE, NO ONE can predict it, but we all try. Most of us just complain about hindsite. Well Wellingham and Daisy at our club in 2014, we would be saying, WTF is Collingwood doing, they did NOTHING this year for us.

 

[Morganashlee]

From the mouths of Lappin & Hine, (and I am paraphrasing) "Freeman is a clearance brute & Kennedy is a clearance machine"
Broomy, well we've all seen his skills, we'll be fine

Freeman almost needs to walk through doors sideways he's that big. I think these are some of our surer things in the coming years,

 

[DNine]

Do you want to know what the difference between optimist, pessimist and realist is?

We were fourth halfway through 2014 with a fully revamped game plan and a bunch of new kids coming through. The end if the year was a disaster, the kids ran out of steam, crippled with injuries. Ben Reid didn't get on the park, Swannie was clearly struggling, too much left to too few.

I'm feeling positive that we will start to get it right, learn from the second half. The improvement will come from within any trades and draft picks from here should add value. Keep the faith, don't worry about who is not there. Go Pies, I'm looking forward to seeing this team mature

"Optimist"

You don't know that Kennedy, Broomhead and Freeman will get to the level that Wellingham has reached, let alone Daisy.

"Pessimist"

We can not see into the furture, we could go like the Dogs or the Power next year and beyond, but we as supporters should be Optimistic through and through. Luck will play a part.

"Realist"

 

[DNine]

Freeman almost needs to walk through doors sideways he's that big. I think these are some of our surer things in the coming years,

Reminds me of the feeling I got when I seen Pendlebury developing. He will be special! Scharenberg will be too, we just have to wait longer. Kennedy, Broomhead, Adams, Langdon, Witts and Grundy, haven't shown us we should lose faith yet.

 

[Anzacday]

Well we will make it 150 then, I am sure you'll come up with a hell of a lot more in that bracket. Cloke and Swan will get to 200 soon.

Why the need to panick, when we missed our first final for 9 years by ONE game. It is just the mindset of Collingwood fans that bother me. We are either strong, or we are terrible. There is no in between for a lot of people. I did type supporters, but it flys against the meaning of the word to call you supporters.

A supporter does what the word says, "SUPPORT". And that doesn't mean just when things are strong. ANYONE can do that. You show how good a supporter you are when the chips are down.

I love my kids, and my family yeah, but when one of them does something undesirable, I don't label them as someone that is going to be that way forever, or even a long time. I have FAITH in them to not be like that. I support their development, and view them in a negative light. We always tell our kids that when they do something wrong, that this behaviour is not them. We believe that they are good people, and focus on the positives with them to make them value the positive more so than the negative. Sometimes you wish you can just say, You're and idiot, you have no idea what this life is all about, and you behaviour shows that you have the attitude to do the wrong thing forever, and to learn the right way is perhaps beyond you. Not that we have a lot of trouble with our kids at all.

But the reason I said that, is that Football clubs are the same. You want to love a football club, you view them in the best possible light you can, and you fully believe that a downturn in form is only temporary. They will bounce back in the quickest possible time. I just don't get the doom and gloom mindset of some supporter. To be convincing yourself we are in bad hands, and we are going to be down for a long long time, where is you faith, where is your purpose to bother?

I don't know what people look at when they see our club deal with issues. Buckley has had me off side a little in the year. I believe he has some stuff to learn, but give him a break, he is not going to come in as a new coach, and be a master straight away. That is not going to happen.

So what, we need a bit of a rebuild, are we going to get all sad about the losses, or are we going to be celebrating of the wins? I looked back at our season on Brownlow night, and it wasn't as doom and gloom as it seemed at the time. Fans hang EVERYTHING on winning, and can not see the little things that are important.

Like Broomheads introduction into the game. How excited would we be when thinking Broomhead if instead of performing great in a losing side, he helped a winning one. No difference in output for the kid himself, just different circumstances surrounding him.

Langdon, how awesome was his first year?

Witts developing nicely, to be tracking right behind Mumford by a few years. Mumford may not be an awesome world beating ruck, but he does great things for the teams he has played for.

Grundy had a down year. They call it the second year blues, but don't look at this year as to what he will do, look at last year. If you could put last years thoughts into the thoughts of the guy, you'd be still wrapped. He needed to learn a few things this year, not the end of a career for the bloke.

Regardless of what doom and gloom supporters think, Keeffe and Frost did a great job considering their age, and how much pressure was put onto them by top sides. They stood up well. Talk that they are no good, is just so far from the truth, it is ridiculous.

The injuries we had, and to only miss finals by one game is incredible. One mark to Young instead of spilling it, and we made finals.

Young did some stupid things, but so too did Shaw. Young is not quite in the same league, but Adams will be. Young however, is a handy foot soldier, when we are up and about. He may struggle to lift when we are getting beaten, but he is not a dud. Nor is White. As a third forward like he is supposed to be, when everyone is not expecting him to jump up and kick four goals a game, he will good for one or two. Good teams have them.

Kennedy, Elliott, Thomas, Seedsman, Williams, Freeman, Scharenberg, they are all coming. It reminds me of back in 2004-2005-2006 when everyone was saying the Pies are shit. We had some faith in young guys coming up, but we were losing Clement, Rocca, Buckley, Licuria, O'Bree, Fraser and the like too quick. The young guys weren't ready to take the big guys on. Help we are drowing, we will be down here forever.

Up come Pendlebury up come Thomas, Johnson, Cloke, Brown, Toovey. How is it different. So in 2006, we were eliminated, in 2015 we may be around the same level, may just make it, just to bow out cheaply. In 06, we were dejected. In 06 we took 4 years to win a flag. In 15, we may be 3-4 years away. So what, it is what it is.

We were NOT going to win a flag playing Rocca until he was 35, or Buckley until he was 38, or Clement longer than he wanted to go. We were not going to win a flag by letting players tear the fabrics of the club. Tarrant was sent to Fremantle, because he was like Shaw is now, a trouble maker.

Sure, this time around is a little different. We are calling on the end of more top players that COULD go on with the club, but are getting something for them before they are worthless. And they are screaming out to move them on too. And the results since being moved on, is proof to that. Beams going is once in a blue moon thing to happen. I rated Paul Williams as highly as Beams. Clement and Holland for Williams, and that was ok. The world didn't crumble in. Buckley, Williams, Brown was equal to Pendlebury, Beams and Sidebottom. Rocca/Cloke, Presti/Brown. It is all just history repeating stuff. Ride the wave, and stop stressing that the wave sometimes is at a low point where it is hard to get up to surf. Life is not a constant source of good times and great success.

BRILLIANT BRILLIANT post, just BRILLIANT!!

In case you missed it, I think that post is BRILLIANT

 

[Morganashlee]

Reminds me of the feeling I got when I seen Pendlebury developing. He will be special! Scharenberg will be too, we just have to wait longer. Kennedy, Broomhead, Adams, Langdon, Witts and Grundy, haven't shown us we should lose faith yet.

I have plenty of faith and can't wait to see these boys develop.

 

[DNine]

I have plenty of faith and can't wait to see these boys develop.

You reminded me of something. Josh Thomas, your Profile pic. During this year, supporter and fans Looked at Thomas and thought, Do we have this kid wrong. How good was he last year, and look at him this year. Just not up to it. Fans said No good, don't count on him again, and Supporters said he will be right. Coming to the close of the season, and I watched Thomas in the VFL, and I thought, Yeah, playing alright at this level, but I didn't see total domination. I didn't see the same old Thomas. I was calling for Martin to be played instead at the time. Bucks chose Thomas, and in he come. Once again, I lost a little faith. Said at the time, WHY? Martin played better than Thomas. Thomas came in and SHUT ME UP, good and proper. I was sitting with my kids, watching, saying Thomas is not up to it at the moment, watch him. MY GOD, did they watch him, and I watched him, and I felt stupid, and my kids respectfully reminded me that look Dad, he is doing good. UNDERSTATEMENT of the year. He was doing GREAT. 29 touches, a BIG part of why we won in the end with all the injuries. Thomas was back, and played better in that game than that namesake of his in the Yucky Blues, playing for his Dad.

What Bucks did with Thomas was like all good coaches back in the 80's used to do to perfection. BLOOD. Thomas needed to wake up. Perhaps he had a niggle. But to us fans, it looks dire. We try to predict a continuing downward trend, and nothing could be further from the truth. He gives me hope as much as the top kids. He could well be a star.

 

[Morganashlee]

You reminded me of something. Josh Thomas, your Profile pic. During this year, supporter and fans Looked at Thomas and thought, Do we have this kid wrong. How good was he last year, and look at him this year. Just not up to it. Fans said No good, don't count on him again, and Supporters said he will be right. Coming to the close of the season, and I watched Thomas in the VFL, and I thought, Yeah, playing alright at this level, but I didn't see total domination. I didn't see the same old Thomas. I was calling for Martin to be played instead at the time. Bucks chose Thomas, and in he come. Once again, I lost a little faith. Said at the time, WHY? Martin played better than Thomas. Thomas came in and SHUT ME UP, good and proper. I was sitting with my kids, watching, saying Thomas is not up to it at the moment, watch him. MY GOD, did they watch him, and I watched him, and I felt stupid, and my kids respectfully reminded me that look Dad, he is doing good. UNDERSTATEMENT of the year. He was doing GREAT. 29 touches, a BIG part of why we won in the end with all the injuries. Thomas was back, and played better in that game than that namesake of his in the Yucky Blues, playing for his Dad.

What Bucks did with Thomas was like all good coaches back in the 80's used to do to perfection. BLOOD. Thomas needed to wake up. Perhaps he had a niggle. But to us fans, it looks dire. We try to predict a continuing downward trend, and nothing could be further from the truth. He gives me hope as much as the top kids. He could well be a star.

Always been a fan of Josh and thought he definitely didn't take the next step I was expecting earlier in the season. Didn't think he warranted selection over Martin based on VFL performance but he was pivotal in the win over GWS and showed just what he was capable of.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Do you want to know what the difference between optimist, pessimist and realist is?



"Optimist"



"Pessimist"

We can not see into the furture, we could go like the Dogs or the Power next year and beyond, but we as supporters should be Optimistic through and through. Luck will play a part.

"Realist"

I think you may be a blind optimist, if your post about supporter is anything to go by. If this goes pear shaped it seems you will be the first to say its ok, we can try again. To me that's a little under 9s footyish and we need to be much more professional than that. We were in a position of power for the first time in a long time, and that has been completely wiped away. Think of what St.Kilda were after we defeated them in the 2010 GF, and think about where we were. Next year we may be both bottom 6. That is a failure and its simply stupid to be optimistic about it.

 

[DNine]

I think you may be a blind optimist, if your post about supporter is anything to go by. If this goes pear shaped it seems you will be the first to say its ok, we can try again. To me that's a little under 9s footyish and we need to be much more professional than that. We were in a position of power for the first time in a long time, and that has been completely wiped away. Think of what St.Kilda were after we defeated them in the 2010 GF, and think about where we were. Next year we may be both bottom 6. That is a failure and its simply stupid to be optimistic about it.

No what is stupid is to be so pessimistic about our chances, and comparing us to Saints that had little talent coming through behind the older ones. How many first round picks did Saints have a couple of years ago? Say 2011.

Think about Hawthorn, 14th in 2005, 11th in 2006, 9th in 2009, 7th in 2010. They are not great years. ALL teams need to fall away and rebuild. If you don't, then the AFL are not doing a good job with equalization, and perhaps that won't happen as much anymore, but we have a lot of promise in the side. If you can't see that, well I can't help you.

You are the type that will start a thread about the doom and gloom of what is happening, and the demand for immediate change. Anything you say as the solution to the problems may well be a failure in itself. You will not concede that keeping Thomas and Wellingham would of been a disaster as far as 2014 was concerned, so you have an inability to see it optimistically.

No use stressing about that the club could do what the Saints did. If we look at the Doom, we are bound to get the Gloom. And this is all for something that HASN'T happened yet. Come back and talk to us when we HAVE been down the bottom four.

In fact, the way you're talking, I can't conclude that you actually DON'T barrack for Collingwood, and are not someone that barracks for a rival club that likes getting on and stirring the Pie fans up. It certainly sounds like it, and there are A LOT of them. It would pain me to talk about the club like you do. I could be wrong, but you could be wrong that your guesses that you think will bring solution are right too.

ONE year out of the finals by ONE game, is no reason to run around like Henny Penny saying the sky is falling.

 

[DNine]

Who should coach the Pies, if Pies came out and said Buckley is the fourth coach to go this preseason? Who do you nominate will take us straight up the ladder? Who will replace Eddie in your world, who would replace Pert? What would you do if a player like Beams wanted to go to another club?

YOU say it is Buckley's fault, without Beams saying it is. You are a believer in rumour and innuendo. You claim that we did the wrong thing from bringing in kids to replace Heath Shaw who is 28 next year, Didak, Jolly, Krakouer, Johnson. How would you fix the amount of players that were leaving because they were coming toward the end of their careers? Would you of stuck with Shaw? Very under 9ish you mentioned, it is very under 9'ish to let a players be undisciplined in a team environment where the LEADERSHIP group decided enough is enough, and not do anything about it. Wellingham, simply wanted to go back to WA, what would you have done? Made him stay because we want experience. Do you think we were ripped off by pick 19? Thomas, massive concerns about his ankle, would you pay the bloke $600+ would you? Put some decisions up that would help the situation, don't just sit back and say that the decisions are wrong. Have you heard of solution based criticism? Give us solutions. To give us your problems only is good for no one.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

No what is stupid is to be so pessimistic about our chances, and comparing us to Saints that had little talent coming through behind the older ones. How many first round picks did Saints have a couple of years ago? Say 2011.

Think about Hawthorn, 14th in 2005, 11th in 2006, 9th in 2009, 7th in 2010. They are not great years. ALL teams need to fall away and rebuild. If you don't, then the AFL are not doing a good job with equalization, and perhaps that won't happen as much anymore, but we have a lot of promise in the side. If you can't see that, well I can't help you.

You are the type that will start a thread about the doom and gloom of what is happening, and the demand for immediate change. Anything you say as the solution to the problems may well be a failure in itself. You will not concede that keeping Thomas and Wellingham would of been a disaster as far as 2014 was concerned, so you have an inability to see it optimistically.

No use stressing about that the club could do what the Saints did. If we look at the Doom, we are bound to get the Gloom. And this is all for something that HASN'T happened yet. Come back and talk to us when we HAVE been down the bottom four.

In fact, the way you're talking, I can't conclude that you actually DON'T barrack for Collingwood, and are not someone that barracks for a rival club that likes getting on and stirring the Pie fans up. It certainly sounds like it, and there are A LOT of them. It would pain me to talk about the club like you do. I could be wrong, but you could be wrong that your guesses that you think will bring solution are right too.

ONE year out of the finals by ONE game, is no reason to run around like Henny Penny saying the sky is falling.

Feel free to throw away your supporting logic when it comes to another person? Dont support another's right to an opinion? Or is just until you get frustrated when people dont see things the way you do? That is cultish.

Hawthorn is a great comparison. They had Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Franklin, Roughead, Rioli, Sewell, Birchall, Guerra in both teams. All of them are A-grade in the roles they play. We (expecting Beams leaves) have Pendles, Sidebottom, Reid, Brown, Cloke, Caf, Goldsack, Blair, Swan, Toovey. The difference in the quality of those players is huge. Hawthorn kept their absolute quality and added to it. They didn't lose any of their 2008 superstars to another club. I believe we have.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Who should coach the Pies, if Pies came out and said Buckley is the fourth coach to go this preseason? Who do you nominate will take us straight up the ladder. Who will replace Eddie in your world, who would replace Pert. What would you do if a player like Beams wanted to go to another club. YOU say it is Buckley's fault, without Beams saying it is. You are a believer in rumour and innuendo. You claim that we did the wrong thing from bringing in kids to replace Heath Shaw who is 28 next year, Didak, Jolly, Krakouer, Johnson. How would you fix the amount of players that were leaving because they were coming toward the end of their careers? Would you of stuck with Shaw? Very under 9ish you mentioned, it is very under 9'ish to let a player be undiscipline in a team environment where the LEADERSHIP group decided enough is enough. Wellingham, simply wanted to go back to WA, what would you have done. Do you think we were ripped off by pick 19? Thomas, massive concerns about his ankle, would you pay the bloke $600+ would you? Put some decisions up that would help the situation, don't just sit back and say that the decisions are wrong. Have you heard of solution based criticism? Give us solutions, to give us your problems only is good for no one.

Who are you talking to?
My thoughts are more that the whole club should get a refresh, not particularly Buckley, though he would likely fall in sucha clean out. I want Pert and McGuire gone to, not because I don't like them and think they suck. MOre beacuse I think the place could do with new people, new ideas, a new image.

 

[DNine]

Feel free to throw away your supporting logic when it comes to another person? Dont support another's right to an opinion? Or is just until you get frustrated when people dont see things the way you do? That is cultish.

Hawthorn is a great comparison. They had Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Franklin, Roughead, Rioli, Sewell, Birchall, Guerra in both teams. All of them are A-grade in the roles they play. We (expecting Beams leaves) have Pendles, Sidebottom, Reid, Brown, Cloke, Caf, Goldsack, Blair, Swan, Toovey. The difference in the quality of those players is huge. Hawthorn kept their absolute quality and added to it. They didn't lose any of their 2008 superstars to another club. I believe we have.

All the players that you mention at Hawthorn were not of the same standard back when they were down out of the 8 at all. You are under estimating us, and over estimating them. Those players mentioned have improved every year to be where they are. You can't look at the final product, and say look at what they have had all along, it is simply not true.

I am not getting frustrated with you. I pity the way you can only be a fan not a supporter. I don't see things the way you do, and I am having an opposing opinion. That is happening. If I didn't let you have an opinion, instead of opposing it, I would give up on you and ignore you. I think your mislead. Cultish??? So I am forming a cult of positive thinkers am I. Who started a new thread purely about negative thinking toward our club? Cults usually think of the world or a situation very negatively, a positive cult is called a church, a religion. Football supporting is a religion more than a cult.

How can you put Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Cloke and Swan in there, and say that the difference in quality is huge. Unbelievable. Pendlebury is the best players name we have in your little comparison. Franklin is with the Swans, so how could you say they aren't losing anyone? Rioli is injury prone, and Sewell is a footsoldier tagger. The Hawks just delisted him, just like we delisted Didak and Jolly. Sewell is not star quality. MacAffer is tracking well enough to catch Sewells great heights by careers end, if he continues like this year. Guerra never really thought much of him and he is gone too.

 

[DNine]

Who are you talking to?
My thoughts are more that the whole club should get a refresh, not particularly Buckley, though he would likely fall in sucha clean out. I want Pert and McGuire gone to, not because I don't like them and think they suck. MOre beacuse I think the place could do with new people, new ideas, a new image.

Name a club that has got a new image by a big clean out of President, CEO, Coach, who were successful because of it? Because after all, we are into solutions that work, so we should have precedence to back it up.

 

[Maggie5]

 

[DNine]

Dead right Maggie5, but some are drowning in the water. They think there is no chance that someone might come along to continue filling the glass, leaving them unable to climb out of the cup. The water they see is dirty, and is reducing. I see clean water, that has an ability to produce more clean water. Maybe we should tip the water out, but would the drowners stay out, or will they jump back into the new water that is put back into the glass. When under water, your eyes are blurry. I try to look at the bigger picture, and it is not doom and gloom.

 

[Anzacday]

I think you may be a blind optimist, if your post about supporter is anything to go by. If this goes pear shaped it seems you will be the first to say its ok, we can try again. To me that's a little under 9s footyish and we need to be much more professional than that. We were in a position of power for the first time in a long time, and that has been completely wiped away. Think of what St.Kilda were after we defeated them in the 2010 GF, and think about where we were. Next year we may be both bottom 6. That is a failure and its simply stupid to be optimistic about it.

Once the trade period is done & dusted we might be able to have an earnest conversation about culture etc.
I'll leave you with these two questions:
- Aside from Marley and his punch-on in Dec. '12, (Bucks 1st year) what other trouble have our players been in under Bucks?
- Did you ever hear Malthouse say he dropped a player 'cos his form wasn't up to it? (Keeffe before Essendon).

I know we got flogged against Bombers, and we all, (me included) questioned the dropping decision.
In hindsight it took balls to do it - short term pain for long term gain

 

[Anzacday]

Shit, just read the name of the thread and realised I shouldn't be posting in here
I'm not disillusioned with the club & I don't consider myself disillusioned