The Disillusioned Thread

[DNine]

Once the trade period is done & dusted we might be able to have an earnest conversation about culture etc.
I'll leave you with these two questions:
- Aside from Marley and his punch-on in Dec. '12, (Bucks 1st year) what other trouble have our players been in under Bucks?
- Did you ever hear Malthouse say he dropped a player 'cos his form wasn't up to it? (Keeffe before Essendon).

I know we got flogged against Bombers, and we all, (me included) questioned the dropping decision.
In hindsight it took balls to do it - short term pain for long term gain

Around about this stage in Malthouses career, he bought in Chad Morrison, and it did not matter how many touches he had, he was going to pick him regardless. I remember after a Saints game, he had 3 kicks and 2 handpasses for the game, and line him up next week, you betcha.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Shit, just read the name of the thread and realised I shouldn't be posting in here
I'm not disillusioned with the club & I don't consider myself disillusioned

Just imagine the titles reads "Buck's can't coach" and away you go

 

[Morganashlee]

Just imagine the titles reads "Buck's can't coach" and away you go

Arent they all titled that?

 

[Anzacday]

Just imagine the titles reads "Buck's can't coach" and away you go

So I have to argue against in yet another thread?

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Just imagine the titles reads "Buck's can't coach" and away you go

When have I ever said that Bucks can't coach? You are obsessed. The thread is supposed to be about the general feeling about Collingwood. For some it's too difficult to seperate their hopes for the future and their opinions. Others their opinion carries more weight. That is what it is like with me. I hope that we are on the right track and we are succesfful in the near future and nobody will be more eager to be proven wrong than me. I can assure you I will still be here and will admit that I am wrong. I just don't see it and I feel the place needs an overhaul.

TO Dnine, In relation to a club moving in new management and getting a new identity, have a look at Port Adelaide.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Around about this stage in Malthouses career, he bought in Chad Morrison, and it did not matter how many touches he had, he was going to pick him regardless. I remember after a Saints game, he had 3 kicks and 2 handpasses for the game, and line him up next week, you betcha.

Were you still a supporter then? Or did that just happen when Buckley took over?

 

[Gone Critical]

Well we will make it 150 then, I am sure you'll come up with a hell of a lot more in that bracket. Cloke and Swan will get to 200 soon.

Why the need to panick, when we missed our first final for 9 years by ONE game. It is just the mindset of Collingwood fans that bother me. We are either strong, or we are terrible. There is no in between for a lot of people. I did type supporters, but it flys against the meaning of the word to call you supporters.

A supporter does what the word says, "SUPPORT". And that doesn't mean just when things are strong. ANYONE can do that. You show how good a supporter you are when the chips are down.

I love my kids, and my family yeah, but when one of them does something undesirable, I don't label them as someone that is going to be that way forever, or even a long time. I have FAITH in them to not be like that. I support their development, and view them in a positive light. We always tell our kids that when they do something wrong, that this behaviour is not them. We believe that they are good people, and focus on the positives with them to make them value the positive more so than the negative. Sometimes you wish you can just say, You're and idiot, you have no idea what this life is all about, and your behaviour shows that you have the attitude to do the wrong thing forever, and to learn the right way is perhaps beyond you. Not that we have a lot of trouble with our kids at all.

But the reason I said that, is that Football clubs are the same. You want to love a football club, you view them in the best possible light you can, and you fully believe that a downturn in form is only temporary. They will bounce back in the quickest possible time. I just don't get the doom and gloom mindset of some supporter. To be convincing yourself we are in bad hands, and we are going to be down for a long long time, where is you faith, where is your purpose to bother?

I don't know what people look at when they see our club deal with issues. Buckley has had me off side a little in the year. I believe he has some stuff to learn, but give him a break, he is not going to come in as a new coach, and be a master straight away. That is not going to happen.

So what, we need a bit of a rebuild, are we going to get all sad about the losses, or are we going to be celebrating of the wins? I looked back at our season on Brownlow night, and it wasn't as doom and gloom as it seemed at the time. Fans hang EVERYTHING on winning, and can not see the little things that are important.

Like Broomheads introduction into the game. How excited would we be when thinking Broomhead if instead of performing great in a losing side, he helped a winning one. No difference in output for the kid himself, just different circumstances surrounding him.

Langdon, how awesome was his first year?

Witts developing nicely, to be tracking right behind Mumford by a few years. Mumford may not be an awesome world beating ruck, but he does great things for the teams he has played for.

Grundy had a down year. They call it the second year blues, but don't look at this year as to what he will do, look at last year. If you could put last years thoughts into the thoughts of the guy, you'd be still wrapped. He needed to learn a few things this year, not the end of a career for the bloke.

Regardless of what doom and gloom supporters think, Keeffe and Frost did a great job considering their age, and how much pressure was put onto them by top sides. They stood up well. Talk that they are no good, is just so far from the truth, it is ridiculous.

The injuries we had, and to only miss finals by one game is incredible. One mark to Young instead of spilling it, and we made finals.

Young did some stupid things, but so too did Shaw. Young is not quite in the same league, but Adams will be. Young however, is a handy foot soldier, when we are up and about. He may struggle to lift when we are getting beaten, but he is not a dud. Nor is White. As a third forward like he is supposed to be, when everyone is not expecting him to jump up and kick four goals a game, he will good for one or two. Good teams have them.

Kennedy, Elliott, Thomas, Seedsman, Williams, Freeman, Scharenberg, they are all coming. It reminds me of back in 2004-2005-2006 when everyone was saying the Pies are shit. We had some faith in young guys coming up, but we were losing Clement, Rocca, Buckley, Licuria, O'Bree, Fraser and the like too quick. The young guys weren't ready to take the big guys on. Help we are drowing, we will be down here forever.

Up come Pendlebury up come Thomas, Johnson, Cloke, Brown, Toovey. How is it different. So in 2006, we were eliminated, in 2015 we may be around the same level, may just make it, just to bow out cheaply. In 06, we were dejected. In 06 we took 4 years to win a flag. In 15, we may be 3-4 years away. So what, it is what it is.

We were NOT going to win a flag playing Rocca until he was 35, or Buckley until he was 38, or Clement longer than he wanted to go. We were not going to win a flag by letting players tear the fabrics of the club. Tarrant was sent to Fremantle, because he was like Shaw is now, a trouble maker.

Sure, this time around is a little different. We are calling on the end of more top players that COULD go on with the club, but are getting something for them before they are worthless. And they are screaming out to move them on too. And the results since being moved on, is proof to that. Beams going is once in a blue moon thing to happen. I rated Paul Williams as highly as Beams. Clement and Holland for Williams, and that was ok. The world didn't crumble in. Buckley, Williams, Brown was equal to Pendlebury, Beams and Sidebottom. Rocca/Cloke, Presti/Brown. It is all just history repeating stuff. Ride the wave, and stop stressing that the wave sometimes is at a low point where it is hard to get up to surf. Life is not a constant source of good times and great success.

Thanks for your long reply, I agree with a lot of it. Maybe my view is I see a great lost chance in the last few seasons. I am a Buckley fan and I dont discount the possibility of us contending again soon. We do have some great kids and I hope they come on. I just see it as very hard to contend and now that we have dropped away it may not be as automatic as some think that we will get back.

Luck has played a part in the last few seasons. In 2015 we can still come back into the 8, I expect us to at least give that a big shake. I expect Blair, Toovey, Brown, Reid, Swan etc to play a big part in that. Our older guys have a lot to give but we would look so much better balanced with Daisy, Shaw, Lumumba and Beams. It is possible to be a supporter but also have some criticisms. I support us with all I have. In 2014 I thought we should have contended top 4. With luck we should have had that 2011-11 team running through its peak years now. I support our future, I hope we play finals in 2015 I just think we have messed things up a bit

 

[DNine]

Were you still a supporter then? Or did that just happen when Buckley took over?

I definitely was. Never went against Malthouse until after the 2003 Grand Final at first, when he took pot shots at Jason Cloke for playing a better Grand Final in 2002 than 2003. Cloke as you might know, didn't play 2002. From there the father figure, and the man I believed in, didn't lose me overnight, but gradually from then until about 2008 my belief was he wasn't the right person for the job. Because the favourites he had, and that he had a rude arrogant personality when we supporters just hang onto his every word to get to know more about the club, he is abusing some Journo that asks a question that I wanted answered as a supporter. Nothing has changed.

But I actually believed in him for a good period of time. I didn't get to 2005 and say, GET RID OF HIM, he just finished bottom 4 two times, sook sook sook. Port Adelaide changed coaches, as we did three years ago. Hinkley took a side over that Primus had went through some of the worst times in the clubs history, and gained great first round picks for those low finishes. In comes Hinkley, and those young players went on to produce. Who is to say they would not go on to produce anywhere. Hinkley was lucky, he got a side coming up. Buckley got a side going down.

Look at sides that have stayed loyal to their people at the top, they too have success. And look at Carlton, they got rid of Kernahan and Ratten, and they are still rubbish. It is not a fool proof plan you are going in with there.

 

[DNine]

When have I ever said that Bucks can't coach? You are obsessed. The thread is supposed to be about the general feeling about Collingwood. For some it's too difficult to seperate their hopes for the future and their opinions. Others their opinion carries more weight. That is what it is like with me. I hope that we are on the right track and we are succesfful in the near future and nobody will be more eager to be proven wrong than me. I can assure you I will still be here and will admit that I am wrong. I just don't see it and I feel the place needs an overhaul.

TO Dnine, In relation to a club moving in new management and getting a new identity, have a look at Port Adelaide.

So you believe Buckley can coach, and he needs replacing anyway. OMG this is getting more and more confusing. You DON'T get rid of a coach that can coach. NO ONE does that.

So your saying, you want change for change sake. Not because anyone you sack, can't do the job, just need fresh faces. lol.

Maybe we just need a fresh coat of paint on the locker room walls. Dye the grass blue or something. Bit drastic to do a clean out, so we can call someone NEW. You know the NEW players we have just got high in the draft, your saying they are not good, because they don't match up to the old. So NEW hierarchy, Old players, is that the combination?? .......R.I.G.H.T!!

 

[DNine]

Thanks for your long reply, I agree with a lot of it. Maybe my view is I see a great lost chance in the last few seasons. I am a Buckley fan and I dont discount the possibility of us contending again soon. We do have some great kids and I hope they come on. I just see it as very hard to contend and now that we have dropped away it may not be as automatic as some think that we will get back.

Luck has played a part in the last few seasons. In 2015 we can still come back into the 8, I expect us to at least give that a big shake. I expect Blair, Toovey, Brown, Reid, Swan etc to play a big part in that. Our older guys have a lot to give but we would look so much better balanced with Daisy, Shaw, Lumumba and Beams. It is possible to be a supporter but also have some criticisms. I support us with all I have. In 2014 I thought we should have contended top 4. With luck we should have had that 2011-11 team running through its peak years now. I support our future, I hope we play finals in 2015 I just think we have messed things up a bit

That is a lot better. It is ok to be critical. And to say we need to be a full Buckley lover or hater now, is very Black & White. I suppose that part is in our nature. As I was saying to Fair & Balanced, I slowly fell away from my belief about Malthouse. My blind faith was probably there too much, because his runs on the board with West Coast. Buckley hasn't got that to count on. However, I have an understanding of Cycles in the AFL. They happen to everyone.

Don't get me wrong, if our kids don't come on, which is a possibility, then we are in more trouble than my optimism will know. But on the other hand, older players are prone to finishing off not as good as there best form either. Heath Shaw was GREAT for our club 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 but when you get older, you get more injured, and you are not as good a prospect into the future than a young gun like Adams. Adam's has his faults, and I like everyone seen him pin point opposition a few times and though O NO. But to his credit, he worked hard on it, and started hitting his targets, to a point where if you look at his clanger, % effectiveness stats, it is near unrecognisable. For a while there, I was thinking 30% effective, world record in clangers. Adams does work his arse off though, and I have faith in him, until he shows me otherwise.

Same can be said about Lumumba. His effectiveness has a more severe downward dip than Heath. Sure H may bounce back to acceptable levels if he stayed, but the transformation in his demeanour in the past two years, is scary, and if he changes that much again in the next two years, he will be rocking backward and forwards dribbling, and mumbling some rubbish incoherent to the common person. To get a like for like, for example Varcoe will be a major win for us. Sure Varcoe has his downfalls too, but I can't stand when I see a player WALK, when the play is in defence and he is five meters away, as they walts in and kick a goal. I seen that by H in the Brisbane game. I thought then, I don't want him. White did it too, in a few games earlier, but at least he was in the forward line. Giving up is the worst thing you can do on a football field.

We look better balance, because of the age and player type when these players were playing good football, I agree 100%, but could they continue to play that style of football that made the balance right? I would like Anthony Rocca at CHF and Travis Cloke at Full Forward, and Darcey Moore at his best age in the forward pocket too, but there is an age factor. With Daisy there is an exploded view of his or Malthouse of what he was worth. Either or both are just incorrect. His ankle is stuffed, and he will be lucky to play out the contract. He is not the Daisy that looked close to $600,000, things went wrong for him. No one at the club currently is at fault there.

We'll be alright. Cloke Reid and White up forward with Elliott, Kennedy/Broomhead will be a skillful help there. Brown, Keeffe and Frost down back is solid, and will continue to get more solid. Langdon, Toovey, Williams to help out down back. Midfielders Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Greenwood, Adams, Thomas, Swan, Freeman, Scharenberg later, Witts and Grundy in the ruck, getting better and better, it will all be ok. It is not like we are looking hopeless. These players still have A LOT to give.

 

[4tone]

You don't know that Kennedy, Broomhead and Freeman will get to the level that Wellingham has reached, let alone Daisy.

Wellingham was average on his good days, The pies sold the eagles a turkey and bought themselves a wild colt. Kennedy, Broomhead and freeman are fresh and hungry, Wellingham looked like he enjoyed the taste of own bathwater. Actually was happy when they showed him the door when they did, he was unwatchable in the end.

 

[sirene]

I liked just about everything DNine posted in this anti Buckley thread and you too AnzacDay

 

[Hardas]

Thought this was interesting:
http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/af...ting-2014-season/story-fniv64s8-1227087443796

Cloke said he could not bring himself to watch the second half of the Grand Final as Hawthorn tightened the screws on Sydney, saying he felt jealous of the Hawks for their sustained success. “I was very envious and jealous of the guys competing,” he said.

“I’m hoping the rest of our group feels the same. “You just want to be a part of that again. If you are not envious of the guys competing on Grand Final day, you are here for the wrong reasons.”

 

[domin8tors]

Well I am extremely excited about our list and I don't think pickups like White have set us back at all, they aren't on much coin and we haven't got them at the expense of stars at all.

Greenwood is not a role player either he is a B+ midfielder.

and white was clearly played in the wrong role, he was brought in as the 3rd tall and we never got to see that with Reid out the whole year

 

[Markfs]

I dont usually like to post such negative stuff, but with us being rumoured to be after Varcoe and Greenwood, even after seeing what NQR pickups like White, Lynch and Young are actually worth, it makes me think that the people in charge have lost the plot.
Why do we keep trying to pick up role players while losing stars?
The quality of our list has been decimated and those talking about unproven young talent like they are superstars (Kennedy, Broomhead, Thomas, Seedsman, Williams etc) are ignoring the fact that these guys are likely to never make A grade status, let alone become 200 game players. The simple reality is more young draftees dont make it, than do.

Our strategy has been poor, and in my opinion, if this all goes pear shaped and we back down on the Beams trade, and give him to Brisbane, it is time for change. Not just Buckley either, IM talking a sweep through starting with Eddie. Not that I haven't loved his efforts, but there is a time to move aside and that time is now. What better way to give our club a fresh new identity than by installing new leadership from the top? It seems Pert is not liked by the players. Lose him too. He comes across as far too corporate for a role as the head of a football club.

I don't know if others feel it too, but Collingwood as a club, as a brand, it just feels stale. I'm sick of being so publicised and wish we could just be a quiet bohemoth looking after our own backyard.

I agree. It's all too hard. Fortunately, there are always new opportunities to whinge whine and generally complain when things aren't going great. I fully expect that a new administration will be magically able to gain access to top draft picks, blood them over a single preseason and having them playing premiership football by April 1st of next year. I just wish someone would make it happen quickly and wake me up when the good times return. I'm a little pissed off at the club causing me this nasty feeling of disillusion. It's patently unfair...

 

[Lockyer24]

Its going to be very difficult for Bucks to look good at the end of 2015 it seems. I'm not sure he can last another year of poor performance regardless of how youthful we are. If we can win a final (and building) it'd be amazing but we are up against it to get anywhere near there it feels.

 

[Maggie5]

I definitely was. Never went against Malthouse until after the 2003 Grand Final at first, when he took pot shots at Jason Cloke for playing a better Grand Final in 2002 than 2003. Cloke as you might know, didn't play 2002.

Absolutely hated him for that.That is what disillusionment is all about and his behaviour in 2011.
Prick of a man!
If people are disillusioned with what we are trying to achieve, don't buy a membership, follow another team.
18 into one doesn't go. Only one team can win the premiership unless of course you think that the board, staff, coach and players don't want to win one.

 

[Rustin Cohle]

If this Beams deal for 5+25+Crisp goes through then you can colour me disillusioned.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Varcoe is 26...

Greenwood just came 3rd in North's B&F after their best season in 10 years...



and we are getting them for next to nothing...

Mature bodies and minds recruited to the club...


I vote IN.

Beams hardest player we had.

Varcoe one of the softest players I've seen.

We are going to be one of the softest team ever created.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Greenwood can not ****ing kick. Add that with Adams. Our skills are bottom of the ladder material in the middle.

 

[Ant85]

I didn't even know who Crisp was until I visited this forum about 30 minutes ago.

No matter how the delusional "everything is fine" crowd like to sugarcoat it, the boat at Collingwood is not steady at all.

I posted in a thread a few weeks ago that it was time for Eddie to begin a smooth transition process to change batons (similar to what Jeff Kennett orchestrated at Hawthorn).

Him walking out now would just be horrific for a club that is rocked with instability.

But he should start a transition process that would be as smooth as possible and have him gone by 2016.

 

[PieNSauce]

I'm afraid that I'm not going to be easily convinced that without a clear candidate having all of the credentials we should be looking to retire our president or commence a transition program. Unfortunately, as a supporter for over 50 years, my memories of past administrations will always make me reluctant if not plain scared to consider what might come with a change.

 

[morgoth]

For me trading is all about plugging holes in your list and/or addressing weaknesses.

Our biggest weakness is our terrible disposal by foot. So what do we do? We bring in 3 guys who are all below average re foot skills.

And we wonder why our forward entries are so inefficient. How can Trav and co lead with any confidence when we butcher the ball like we do?

A very poor trading period.

 

[Finnishpie]

The question to ask is: will these (and our current) players be in our next premiership side? It's not an easy question though, because premiership sides need balance, so you can have a few hard nuts, like Greenwood, without great skills if you have some skilled players around them. Our problem is that we don't have those skilled line-breaking players (our kicking accuracy was 15th last year, I think). And we have too many short players is a competition which is dominated by 6 foot 2 midfielders. Unfortunately, the skills of the three boys we're bringing in are not great (all under average, according to an article I read yesterday). Whereas Beams is highly skilled. So in that department we're getting worse. At least they have some grunt. But we really need Sharenberg back on his feet quickly, that's for sure. And we need some quick outside mids with great skills - like Hawthorn and Freeo have in the Hill brothers. So will these three - Greenwood, Varcoe and Crisp (if it happens) - be part of the next premiership side? It's uncertain. Would Beams have been? Definitely. That's why we've gone backwards a bit. How much should we blame the club? A bit. Beams said he has less loyalty to the club since his friends like Heater have been sent packing. Lesson: you can't make too many list changes without breaking the bond between the playing group and the footy department in general. If you have a top-level list, cut it at your own risk! So yes, I agree, Buckley and co made some mistakes. The strategy was okay to let a few players go, but they just went too far, and now we see the consequences.

 

[morgoth]

I didn't even know who Crisp was until I visited this forum about 30 minutes ago.

No matter how the delusional "everything is fine" crowd like to sugarcoat it, the boat at Collingwood is not steady at all.

I posted in a thread a few weeks ago that it was time for Eddie to begin a smooth transition process to change batons (similar to what Jeff Kennett orchestrated at Hawthorn).

Him walking out now would just be horrific for a club that is rocked with instability.

But he should start a transition process that would be as smooth as possible and have him gone by 2016.

Agree, the club feels stale, is out of ideas where it matters, on field and in the footy dept and is getting left behind. Having the best chairty/social programs just don't cut it for me.

We need a president who is 100% focused in Collingwood and not worried about upsetting other club or the 'good of the game'. You don't see Hawthorn worrying about taking Frawley from Melbourne. You also don't have Hawthorns prez creating head lines either.