The Disillusioned Thread

[DRIZZT]

I disagree with the OP in regard to the club. Now is not the time to start chopping and changing internally and at the top (pres, admin, etc). In the recent past I may have thought otherwise, but we do not need more instability at the moment.

The events of the last two days, with the Doggies imploding, and us holding a straight line over Beams, have emphasised the importance of a strong and united club. I'm not sure we are exactly that - yet - but we are starting to sound like it, at least externally. The signs are there.

There is also currently a lot of turmoil in the AFL with regard to senior coaches, and I am concerned we will lose one of our senior assistants. Sure, they are entitled to take up a better offer, but we have had great stability in that area (with some exceptions), and loyalty shown by and to Bucks in regards to his assistants, which I see as a massive positive.

Anyway, its early morning, and I am still bouyed by yesterday's events and our handling of the Beams saga. It might also be a catalyst to generate a stronger spirit amongst the playing group. If we, the fan base, hurt when Dayne announced he wanted to leave, their hurt would have been greater. And for the players to then see the club play this out with dignity and respect - it must have a positive impact at the Westpac Centre.

I know I could not have been prouder. Its been a terrific effort by the Pies, very classy.

Couldnt agree more vic.Only assistant likely to leave would be harvey,which would allow us to bring in bucks buddy sando which would in turn bring in danger next yr(ive still got a funny feelin were gona get him this yr)boy can dream!!!

 

[Morganashlee]

They dont fool me.We'll be back in top 6 next yr,if not top four with what should be an easier draw.Im expectin a hungry young pies team next yr(similar to 2009/2010),lot depends on who we get next week and moreso less injurys.Is thomas your fav player?

Thomas is nice to look at but not my fav. Love Sidey and Pendles but I think I'll go with Taylor Adams. Want him to succeed so badly.

 

[PieNSauce]

I know that there are plenty on this board who see it differently than I do but I am still very buoyant about our list. Others clearly disagree but I am thoroughly convinced that if it were not for the devil's luck with injuries people would not be seeing the club as some basket case. Yes we performed very poorly last year and looked to be a bottom four side. I don't think too many people could rationally argue otherwise but I am totally convinced that had injuries not decimated us right from the beginning of the season we would have done a lot better.

Next year will present bigger challenges because we have lost even more experience but I'm satisfied that this is a consequence of the cultural change that the club has bought into and will stand us in good stead into the future. Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced that the mix or the implementation of the strategy have been without hiccups which need to be addressed but I don't think you can implement such a change without a very strong initial statement. Some believe that this has cost us an early shot at another premiership and I can't necessarily disagree with that but I am also satisfied that in order to have sustained success we need to have a strong base to work from. Whether or not it is ultimately a successful strategy is a risk for sure but I believe that is true of any strategy. There is no guaranteed strategy for success and what might work for one group of players will not necessarily work with a changed mix. What is certain though in my mind is that players pulling in opposite directions will definitely derail any chance of success.

Just as I see that the setbacks over the last few years will have caused the club to constantly reassess and realign the expectations, I believe we need to sit back for another year or two and reassess the club's performance before considering putting any broom through the place. To me that would be as big or an even bigger risk than allowing things to play out further. The hard part is to accept that luck will always play a fairly big part and being able to evaluate the causes rather than just smashing down the walls at the first sign of trouble.

 

[Morganashlee]

I know that there are plenty on this board who see it differently than I do but I am still very buoyant about our list. Others clearly disagree but I am thoroughly convinced that if it were not for the devil's luck with injuries people would not be seeing the club as some basket case. Yes we performed very poorly last year and looked to be a bottom four side. I don't think too many people could rationally argue otherwise but I am totally convinced that had injuries not decimated us right from the beginning of the season we would have done a lot better.

Next year will present bigger challenges because we have lost even more experience but I'm satisfied that this is a consequence of the cultural change that the club has bought into and will stand us in good stead into the future. Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced that the mix or the implementation of the strategy have been without hiccups which need to be addressed but I don't think you can implement such a change without a very strong initial statement. Some believe that this has cost us an early shot at another premiership and I can't necessarily disagree with that but I am also satisfied that in order to have sustained success we need to have a strong base to work from. Whether or not it is ultimately a successful strategy is a risk for sure but I believe that is true of any strategy. There is no guaranteed strategy for success and what might work for one group of players will not necessarily work with a changed mix. What is certain though in my mind is that players pulling in opposite directions will definitely derail any chance of success.

Just as I see that the setbacks over the last few years will have caused the club to constantly reassess and realign the expectations, I believe we need to sit back for another year or two and reassess the club's performance before considering putting any broom through the place. To me that would be as big or an even bigger risk than allowing things to play out further. The hard part is to accept that luck will always play a fairly big part and being able to evaluate the causes rather than just smashing down the walls at the first sign of trouble.

I completely agree. Was watching fox footy before they were playing our round 11 game against St Kilda. Granted the opposition wasn't overly competitive at that time we were 3rd on the ladder. A lack of talent did not see us finish 11th, we were decimated by injury to key senior players and it took its toll on the younger bodies who were left to carry the load.

Those kids will be bigger, they'll be fitter and they'll be better equiped to tackle a full season. Losing H is no issue to me, Beamer is gut wrenching but another kid will get a chance and hopefully we can reestablish ourselves back with the contenders. There are plenty of clubs who would kill to have reached the pinnacle 5 seasons ago and now looking to climb back up again.

Patience.

 

[DRIZZT]

I know that there are plenty on this board who see it differently than I do but I am still very buoyant about our list. Others clearly disagree but I am thoroughly convinced that if it were not for the devil's luck with injuries people would not be seeing the club as some basket case. Yes we performed very poorly last year and looked to be a bottom four side. I don't think too many people could rationally argue otherwise but I am totally convinced that had injuries not decimated us right from the beginning of the season we would have done a lot better
Next year will present bigger challenges because we have lost even more experience but I'm satisfied that this is a consequence of the cultural change that the club has bought into and will stand us in good stead into the future. Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced that the mix or the implementation of the strategy have been without hiccups which need to be addressed but I don't think you can implement such a change without a very strong initial statement. Some believe that this has cost us an early shot at another premiership and I can't necessarily disagree with that but I am also satisfied that in order to have sustained success we need to have a strong base to work from. Whether or not it is ultimately a successful strategy is a risk for sure but I believe that is true of any strategy. There is no guaranteed strategy for success and what might work for one group of players will not necessarily work with a changed mix. What is certain though in my mind is that players pulling in opposite directions will definitely derail any chance of success.

Just as I see that the setbacks over the last few years will have caused the club to constantly reassess and realign the expectations, I believe we need to sit back for another year or two and reassess the club's performance before considering putting any broom through the place. To me that would be as big or an even bigger risk than allowing things to play out further. The hard part is to accept that luck will always play a fairly big part and being able to evaluate the causes rather than just smashing down the walls at the first sign of trouble.

This is not an essay competition

 

[PieNSauce]

I completely agree. Was watching fox footy before they were playing our round 11 game against St Kilda. Granted the opposition wasn't overly competitive at that time we were 3rd on the ladder. A lack of talent did not see us finish 11th, we were decimated by injury to key senior players and it took its toll on the younger bodies who were left to carry the load.

Those kids will be bigger, they'll be fitter and they'll be better equiped to tackle a full season. Losing H is no issue to me, Beamer is gut wrenching but another kid will get a chance and hopefully we can reestablish ourselves back with the contenders. There are plenty of clubs who would kill to have reached the pinnacle 5 seasons ago and now looking to climb back up again.

Patience.

Yep, and don't forget that the side had to be completely rejigged early because of the loss of Reid. Core strategy blown out of the water before a ball was kicked in anger!

 

[PieNSauce]

This is not an essay competition

lol. I hate long posts as much as the next person because the fact is that generally people don't read them. Couldn't find a way to shorten it though!

 

[Morganashlee]

This is not an essay competition

lol. I hate long posts as much as the next person because the fact is that generally people don't read them. Couldn't find a way to shorten it though!

Sorry got on a roll and couldn't stop the rant haha

 

[NT.Thunder]

I agree FnB especially in regards to putting so much emphasis on high draft picks become superstars and 200 gamers.

This is what bugged me about the Beams trade and a few Brisbane supporters that I got in a verbal stoush with as they were saying that since Redden and. Beams were both mid & high 20's draft picks, than we should be greatful on pick 5 & 25. People need to go back, even on Wikipedia and read through the draft picks of the last 5/6 years to see just how many superstars on high/low picks convert to A graders compared to this who fail.

I think from what I've seen. Broomhead and Langdon could develop into stars, but jury is still out on some others. Freeman we haven't seen along with Scharenburg who worries me with injury, BK has had plenty of sub time but I'm not sold just yet, Grundy I think will develop into a good ruck man but honestly think his best is 4-5 years off.

Losing Beams hurts but it's not like it was the clubs fault this happened. How we replace him will make or break us and ATM from what I can see we'll break. We really needed an A Grader to support the loss of Beams both on and off field and by the looks of it this won't happen in 2014/15

 

[PieNSauce]

I agree FnB especially in regards to putting so much emphasis on high draft picks become superstars and 200 gamers.

This is what bugged me about the Beams trade and a few Brisbane supporters that I got in a verbal stoush with as they were saying that since Redden and. Beams were both mid & high 20's draft picks, than we should be greatful on pick 5 & 25. People need to go back, even on Wikipedia and read through the draft picks of the last 5/6 years to see just how many superstars on high/low picks convert to A graders compared to this who fail.

I think from what I've seen. Broomhead and Langdon could develop into stars, but jury is still out on some others. Freeman we haven't seen along with Scharenburg who worries me with injury, BK has had plenty of sub time but I'm not sold just yet, Grundy I think will develop into a good ruck man but honestly think his best is 4-5 years off.

Losing Beams hurts but it's not like it was the clubs fault this happened. How we replace him will make or break us and ATM from what I can see we'll break. We really needed an A Grader to support the loss of Beams both on and off field and by the looks of it this won't happen in 2014/15

There's certainly validity in the suggestion that we could use some established stars. I doubt anyone could argue that isn't the case but in reality, if you can't land them I think the next best thing is to add some experience at least for the short term. Nothing like the impact you'd like but at least you get some support for the younger players. Let's hope that someone like Danger sees us as an option next year!

 

[DRIZZT]

lol. I hate long posts as much as the next person because the fact is that generally people don't read them. Couldn't find a way to shorten it though!

Easy.You just put my post down,then put an english literature app over the top to dazzle it up.My trick to get the suckers to read the whole post is to add a few jokes along the way(hey,im laughin inside).

 

[DRIZZT]

Sorry got on a roll and couldn't stop the rant haha

Nah,that was to piensauce

 

[jimmy35]

I find the biggest problem we have had with our free agency picks has been our expectations. They weren't superstars, they were contributors that were seen to be able to serve a purpose.

Lynch played some good games, some average games and struggled with injuries. He suffered a broken leg and missed a large chunk of the season but the time and effort he put in to assist in developing our young forwards was fantastic. Every VFL game he was there teaching, supporting and guiding them at a time where we struggled for leaders.

Unpopular opinion here but I don't think Jesse White was the abject failure that others made him out to be. Due to our injuries he was barely able to play the role in which we recruited him for yet adapted and performed quite well at times as a second ruck. He takes a defender who otherwise would be double or triple teaming Trav and will be better in a more settled forward line structure.

Clinton Young is like the girl you spot across the room. Good from far but far from good. We were sold a bit of a lemon with the constant chatter about his taking left foot. We mustn't have heard the part about him being inaccurate, overrated and possibly passed his prime.

Despite all of their shortcomings they did provide something we desperately needed; developed bodies with experience to assist a young list during a period of transition.

Perspective is a wonderful thing. Those within the club probably would not have had these players in the plans for our next premiership, but with a list as young as ours these guys are pivotal in allowing growth and development whilst providing depth once they have been overtaken.

In regards to our young unproven talent we can only invest time and resources into them and hope they can reach the potential that saw them get drafted. The signs are good with our kids, hopefully they take the next step.

Good post

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I stopped reading after the first 9 words

Then I did a search and discovered the first 9 words were a lie

 

[Anzacday]

I dont usually like to post such negative stuff, but with us being rumoured to be after Varcoe and Greenwood, even after seeing what NQR pickups like White, Lynch and Young are actually worth, it makes me think that the people in charge have lost the plot.
Why do we keep trying to pick up role players while losing stars?
The quality of our list has been decimated and those talking about unproven young talent like they are superstars (Kennedy, Broomhead, Thomas, Seedsman, Williams etc) are ignoring the fact that these guys are likely to never make A grade status, let alone become 200 game players. The simple reality is more young draftees dont make it, than do.

Our strategy has been poor, and in my opinion, if this all goes pear shaped and we back down on the Beams trade, and give him to Brisbane, it is time for change. Not just Buckley either, IM talking a sweep through starting with Eddie. Not that I haven't loved his efforts, but there is a time to move aside and that time is now. What better way to give our club a fresh new identity than by installing new leadership from the top? It seems Pert is not liked by the players. Lose him too. He comes across as far too corporate for a role as the head of a football club.

I don't know if others feel it too, but Collingwood as a club, as a brand, it just feels stale. I'm sick of being so publicised and wish we could just be a quiet bohemoth looking after our own backyard.

Not a fan of the title to be honest.

Appreciate the thread and in particular the levelheaded and insightful replies.
Having said that here's mine
We are losing H and potentially replacing him with Varcoe, a player with physical not emotional issues and the right attitude.
Beams is gone, replaced by a player who is hard at it and gut runs all day AND whatever we get from the picks.
Our kids will be fine in time, (which we are buying them).
Most of our board, Eddie, Derek & Bucks are on the same page.
We have excellent stability there and are sorting out the attitudinal problems within the list.
Stay the course and sorry about the essay

 

[jmac70]

Just an admin question...Is this thread replacing the Buckey Megathread?

 

[PieNSauce]

Just an admin question...Is this thread replacing the Buckey Megathread?

lol. Kudos!

 

[Magpie Monopoly]

Not a fan of the title to be honest.

Appreciate the thread and in particular the levelheaded and insightful replies.
Having said that here's mine
We are losing H and potentially replacing him with Varcoe, a player with physical not emotional issues and the right attitude.
Beams is gone, replaced by a player who is hard at it and gut runs all day AND whatever we get from the picks.
Our kids will be fine in time, (which we are buying them).
Most of our board, Eddie, Derek & Bucks are on the same page.
We have excellent stability there and are sorting out the attitudinal problems within the list.
Stay the course and sorry about the essay

Just gave similar thoughts on another thread:

I share your optimism. 2014, 2015 and 2016 are all about development for our group.

I don't think people give enough credit to Jamie Elliot, he was in my opinion prior to his injury fringe All-Australian, he took massive steps last year. Adams also took some big steps in the right direction. His last 2-3 games prior to his injury he was arguable in our top 2 midfielders, his disposal seemed to be at an acceptable if not quality standard too. Witts leapfrogged Grundy as our primary Ruckman, really showed some aggression and ability to play forward. I also dont think we have given enough credit to our young defenders, in particular Frost. Completely shut down Lance Franklin in the Sydney game and cant really think off the top of my head a game where he had a bag kicked on him by anyone.

If these young blokes can merely replicate their levels of progression from 2014 next year and beyond, i dont think we are in as much of a hole as people make out. 2007-2009 we turned over alot of talent and replaced them with young players. Buckley, Rocca, Burns and many more key players moved on and instead of playing the youth card we won a flag. People act like the franchise is heading into liquidation, it isnt that bad really.

 

[Anzacday]

Just an admin question...Is this thread replacing the Buckey Megathread?

We are basking in the glory of our stance re Beams and unity within the club and supporter base at the moment.
Just floating along having a nice discussion until all the "others" wake up or get in on it and hijack it with negativity.
Then it can be merged or locked and life goes on.

 

[PieNSauce]

We are basking in the glory of our stance re Beams and unity within the club and supporter base at the moment.
Just floating along having a nice discussion until all the "others" wake up or get in on it and hijack it with negativity.
Then it can be merged or locked and life goes on.

Sad but true!

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Its great that there is still so much optimism, I just don't see it. I can't recall a team ever losing as many mid 20s- early 20s premiership players as we have. I guess in that way I can't say that it is definitely going to end up bad, but my opinion is that it will.

I did a glance down of our list, and the only guys I think have any hope of being top 50ish players in the comp in the next 2-3 years are Pendles, Cloke, Sidebottom, Swan, Reid and Elliot. That's when they have good years. There is way to big of a gap between these guys and the next line and this is on the recruiters and the coaching staff. They must have known that Maxwell would leave soon and that we would be left with an extraordinarily young backline. Given Reid is expected to play forward, we have guys like Brown, Toovey and Goldsack as our "veterans" down back. They all lack class, composure, good disposal and a steady hand. And they are the leaders/experienced guys back there.

As for Eddie, who couldn't understand the love and loyalty shown towards him? But there comes a time when change is needed, especially when the leader is so everpresent and vocal. I don't think we have the need for someone to keep promoting us anymore. Eddie has made us relevant, but now he is making us stale. My hope is that he will move aside without any kind of coup or challenge, but I think it's unlikely.

 

[Morganashlee]

We are basking in the glory of our stance re Beams and unity within the club and supporter base at the moment.
Just floating along having a nice discussion until all the "others" wake up or get in on it and hijack it with negativity.
Then it can be merged or locked and life goes on.

When they arrive in here maybe we could change the title from disillusioned to delusional

 

[PieNSauce]

Its great that there is still so much optimism, I just don't see it. I can't recall a team ever losing as many mid 20s- early 20s premiership players as we have. I guess in that way I can't say that it is definitely going to end up bad, but my opinion is that it will.

I did a glance down of our list, and the only guys I think have any hope of being top 50ish players in the comp in the next 2-3 years are Pendles, Cloke, Sidebottom, Swan, Reid and Elliot. That's when they have good years. There is way to big of a gap between these guys and the next line and this is on the recruiters and the coaching staff. They must have known that Maxwell would leave soon and that we would be left with an extraordinarily young backline. Given Reid is expected to play forward, we have guys like Brown, Toovey and Goldsack as our "veterans" down back. They all lack class, composure, good disposal and a steady hand. And they are the leaders/experienced guys back there.

As for Eddie, who couldn't understand the love and loyalty shown towards him? But there comes a time when change is needed, especially when the leader is so everpresent and vocal. I don't think we have the need for someone to keep promoting us anymore. Eddie has made us relevant, but now he is making us stale. My hope is that he will move aside without any kind of coup or challenge, but I think it's unlikely.

You're entitled to that opinion FNB and nobody should put you down for having it but I can't agree. To me that is such a glass half empty take on the club. Just saying!

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

You're entitled to that opinion FNB and nobody should put you down for having it but I can't agree. To me that is such a glass half empty take on the club. Just saying!

In your opinion, since Buckley has been in charge, what categoric successes have been made? List management wise? I can only think of two definites. Langdon (who was a pick 50odd) and Grundy (who won't be what we need him to be for 3-4 years).

There would be few other teams, if any, in the league with that kind of strike rate over the past 3 years.

 

[PieNSauce]

In your opinion, since Buckley has been in charge, what categoric successes have been made? List management wise? I can only think of two definites. Langdon (who was a pick 50odd) and Grundy (who won't be what we need him to be for 3-4 years).

There would be few other teams, if any, in the league with that kind of strike rate over the past 3 years.

Without wanting to spark another whole Buckley debate I don't think it's entirely possible to make a call on it given the hellish luck we've had with injuries. Whatever your opinion, I'm pretty sure that having the game plan you've worked on all through off-season completely scuttled very early in a season is going to test even the best coach. Just my opinion.