Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[Chadwiko]

Hamas are prolonging the conflict because they're winning.

Whilst I understand what you mean when you say this, I respectfully disagree.

Hamas' legitimacy and popularity amongst Palestinians is declining (noteworthy; it rose significantly after the October 7th attack, which is quite telling). But more importantly, after this conflict there is no future whatsoever in which the wider world will recognise Hamas as the leaders of Gaza/Palestinians.

Indeed, we're now seeing several nations saying that as part of the efforts to reach a ceasefire, they're willing to recognise Palestine officially, but not under a Hamas leadership. That's a massive L for Hamas whatever way you look at it.

Furthermore (and admittedly this is anecdotal); Palestinians are now seeing the Hamas leadership for the corrupt and deceitful people they are. Why are innocent Gazans being left exposed to suffer and starve under Israeli's atrocious assault while multi-millionaire Hamas leaders such as Ismael Haniyeh are safe in Qatar?

In short; there are no 'winners' in this conflict. Israel have lost an enormous amount of international goodwill, Hamas have lost legitimacy, and Gaza has been decimated.

 

[Del191229]

While I think revenge is driving this situation I also think its out of control because no one really has any outcome planned other than "eliminate Hamas" - which is just a nebulous concept anyway.

Yeah, Bibi is only about Bibi and the Jewish Power nutbars like Ben-Gvir make Daesh seem measured, they genuinely want some form of region wide holy war.

 

[Chadwiko]

Yeah, Bibi is only about Bibi and the Jewish Power nutbars like Ben-Gvir make Daesh seem measured, they genuinely want some form of region wide holy war.

Nah. This is unhelpful hyperbole that feeds into anti-semitism.

Netanyahu is awful. Truly a horrible man. And yes, he's responsible for this war and it's prolonging. I don't want what I'm about to say be misconstrued as in anyway defending Bibi, Likud, Otzma, or the likes of Itamar Ben-Gvir.

But this notion that they 'want' a holy war or a larger war is not true.

 

[Del191229]

Whilst I understand what you mean when you say this, I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough.

But its an idea that hardcore pro Israel types are starting to graps too:

Hamas' legitimacy and popularity amongst Palestinians is declining (noteworthy; it rose significantly after the October 7th attack, which is quite telling). But more importantly, after this conflict there is no future whatsoever in which the wider world will recognise Hamas as the leaders of Gaza/Palestinians.

I'm not sure where you source that from, but Hamas have just been guaranteed a massive influx of new recruits by what Israel did.

Again, who is "the wider world" ... because if you're saying Washington/London etc that's wrong now - they're actively engaged in peace talks with Hamas that de facto recognise Hamas as the legitimate leaders of Gaza.

A for the wider world - Israel is pariah state there. Israel is the subject war crimes investigations, Israel is being boycotted etc.

Israel's future looks more and more like apartheid South Africa.

Indeed, we're now seeing several nations saying that as part of the efforts to reach a ceasefire, they're willing to recognise Palestine officially, but not under a Hamas leadership. That's a massive L for Hamas whatever way you look at it.

Nah, I don't think so. The IRA agreed to a ceasefire and powersharing and to dissolve itself and it was a massive W.

A legitimate Palestinian state is by definition an enormous win for Hamas.

If part of the agreement is democratic elections in that state (which you'd think it has to be) there's every chance Hamas wins them, as they did before.

Furthermore (and admittedly this is anecdotal); Palestinians are now seeing the Hamas leadership for the corrupt and deceitful people they are. Why are innocent Gazans being left exposed to suffer and starve under Israeli's atrocious assault while multi-millionaire Hamas leaders such as Ismael Haniyeh are safe in Qatar?

This isn't anecdotal, this is straight Israeli propaganda.

Again, Hamas rose to power in Gaza democratically. They have long had genuine legitimacy among the people.

In short; there are no 'winners' in this conflict. Israel have lost an enormous amount of international goodwill, Hamas have lost legitimacy, and Gaza has been decimated.

Agreed on the general thrust there.

 

[Del191229]

Nah. This is unhelpful hyperbole that feeds into anti-semitism.

Netanyahu is awful. Truly a horrible man. And yes, he's responsible for this war and it's prolonging. I don't want what I'm about to say be misconstrued as in anyway defending Bibi, Likud, Otzma, or the likes of Itamar Ben-Gvir.

But this notion that they 'want' a holy war or a larger war is not true.

What?

You're saying Ben Gvir and Smotrich aren't hardcore expansionist militarists?"

Prior to the recent tensions over the Temple Mount, a perennial thorn in Israeli-Jordanian ties, Amman summoned the Israeli envoy over far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich’s speech last month at a conference in Paris, during which he claimed the Palestinian people are an “invention,” while standing behind a map of “Greater Israel” that includes modern-day Jordan

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jordans-ben-gvir-israel-said-to-accuse-ammans-fm-of-inflaming-tensions/

And that stating this fact is "anti semitic"?

Come on.

 

[Chadwiko]

I'm not sure where you source that from, but Hamas have just been guaranteed a massive influx of new recruits by what Israel did.

By this same logic though, Hamas 'lost' because the October 7th attacks emboldened Israelis against Hamas/Palestine.

I think both such arguments are flawed to the point of missing the point entirely though.

Again, who is "the wider world" ... because if you're saying Washington/London etc that's wrong now - they're actively engaged in peace talks with Hamas that de facto recognise Hamas as the legitimate leaders of Gaza.

Well, yes. Hamas are the involved party who kick-started this current conflict so of course they're part of the negotiations towards peace. But my point remains.

A for the wider world - Israel is pariah state there. Israel is the subject war crimes investigations, Israel is being boycotted etc.

Israel's future looks more and more like apartheid South Africa.

Israel is too strategically important and too close of an ally to countries like the US, UK, etc to ever get the full South African treatment. But I absolutely agree they've taken a massive hit to their international standing and goodwill that will take a long, long time to recover from. And it will not happen under Bibi/Likud.

Again, Hamas rose to power in Gaza democratically. They have long had genuine legitimacy among the people.

Whilst this is obviously 'technically' true, you and I both know that it's a massive over-simplification that misses crucial context.

In short, I think saying Hamas is 'winning' is both inaccurate, but also kind of in poor taste.

 

[Chadwiko]

And that stating this fact is "anti semitic"?

I'm not saying it's anti-semitic. I'm saying it encourages anti-semitism via the whole 'Jews want to control the world/region! Jews want a Holy war!' blah blah blah.

Ben-Gvir is not part of Israel's war council.

I just think we should be careful with our language when discussing this sort of stuff. Israel's coalition government is full of hard-liner nutjobs, but not all of them need to be paid attention to. It's like judging Australia's foreign policy based on statements made by Pauline Hanson or Barnaby Joyce.

 

[Del191229]

By this same logic though, Hamas 'lost' because the October 7th attacks emboldened Israelis against Hamas/Palestine.

I think both such arguments are flawed to the point of missing the point entirely though.

The great success of the October 7 attacks was they made Israel show its true face - the one Palestinians in Gaza endured every day - to the world.

Israel has been emboldened yes, into becoming a quasi fascist openly racist pariah state that's barely tolerated even by its traditional security guarantor in the US.

The Palestinian issue is squarely back at the centre of world affairs - in itself a major victory after they'd been sidelined - and world is not siding with Israel.

Well, yes. Hamas are the involved party who kick-started this current conflict so of course they're part of the negotiations towards peace. But my point remains.

Hamas are very open that this "current conflict" was kick started by Jewish supremacists like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir and their actions at Al-Aqsa, they named the operation accordingly.

I've long said on this thread that Israel's greatest danger is internal - how does it balance the socially tolerant (for its own) secular IT start up side with the ever growing Orthodox and their pro Settler political allies.

I don't want Israel erased from the map (as that would entail genocide) and it won't ever be as long as it has second strike nuke capability, but I think its future is more like a kind of apartheid South Africa meets current Iran than anything else, especially if it refuses to negotiate in good faith with Hamas.

And history teaches us that again and again "terrorists" like Hamas can't be negotiated with, until suddenly they can, and people like Martin McGuinness or Yasser Arafat are workable partners for peace etc.

There can be no peace for Israel without Hamas' agreement, that's the key lesson from October 7 and the following conflict in Gaza.

Israel is too strategically important and too close of an ally to countries like the US, UK, etc to ever get the full South African treatment.

Kind of my point - the UK and US did maintain strong working relationships with apartheid South Africa. Its how middle and rising countries behave that matters here.

South Africa is fascinating in that they wouldn't let Putin go to BRICS coz of their international obligations, which they then used against Israel with the genocide court action.

China certainly is no friend of Israel too and its the key power player of the next century. Indeed the CCP is pretty willing to engage in ugly anti semitic language,

But I absolutely agree they've taken a massive hit to their international standing and goodwill that will take a long, long time to recover from. And it will not happen under Bibi/Likud.

Full agreement there.

Whilst this is obviously 'technically' true, you and I both know that it's a massive over-simplification that misses crucial context.

They won an internationally observed election fair and square in 2006. Since then they've certainly consolidated power anti democratically but that's as much on Israel as them ... there haven't exactly been the conditions for elections.

If Zelensky is still considered the democratically elected President of Ukraine, despite cancelling elections and his term expiring recently, then Hamas are too by the same logic.

In short, I think saying Hamas is 'winning' is both inaccurate, but also kind of in poor taste.

They're certainly winning the military struggle, Israel is withdrawing without even getting to Rafah.

I'm actually stunned at how comprehensive the Hamas military victory has been.

As for "poor taste", well yeah, the world is full of shit that happens that's unpalatable and nasty.

It still happens though.

Like relentless US gun violence, especially against children, which is apparentley is poor taste to mention too?

 

[Del191229]

I'm not saying it's anti-semitic. I'm saying it encourages anti-semitism via the whole 'Jews want to control the world/region! Jews want a Holy war!' blah blah blah.

Ben-Gvir is not part of Israel's war council.

I just think we should be careful with our language when discussing this sort of stuff. Israel's coalition government is full of hard-liner nutjobs, but not all of them need to be paid attention to. It's like judging Australia's foreign policy based on statements made by Pauline Hanson or Barnaby Joyce.

Jews like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are very open about wanting to control the whole region man.

The Platform of Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Strength) – За Оцма Йегудит

ozma-yeudit.com

Look at their manifesto - they ain't hiding shit

The other day I called out a poster for using "tentacles" because that terms calls to mind hideous Streicher-like antisemtic imagery that uses the "Jews want to control the world" trope.

But saying Ben-Gvir is a hardcore militarist expansionist is just stating fact.

 

[Chadwiko]

Jews like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are very open about wanting to control the whole region man.

I'm not denying that. I'm saying that platforming them as being representative of broader Jewish/Israel strategy and policy is unhelpful.

As I said in my example, it's akin to saying nutjobs like Pauline Hanson are representative of Australia's policies when they spout stupid shit.

Israel's coalition-style government is a god-damn mess, and unfortunately it emboldens the nutjobs to say dumb things very loudly.

 

[Del191229]

I'm not denying that. I'm saying that platforming them as being representative of broader Jewish/Israel strategy and policy is unhelpful.

Ben-Gvir is Minister of the Interior and Smotrich is Minister for Finance, they hold senior government positions.

They ARE representative of Israel now.

As I said in my example, it's akin to saying nutjobs like Pauline Hanson are representative of Australia's policies when they spout stupid s**t.

Hanson isn't and never has been in government though, these guys are.

Israel's coalition-style government is a god-damn mess, and unfortunately it emboldens the nutjobs to say dumb things very loudly.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-leader-of-european-jews-accuses-ben-gvir-of-exacerbating-antisemitism/

They do it themselves.

 

[DesertRoo]

Started thinking I should've popped it into the Grumpy old thread :-D Anyway, got a day, or a few off after dog bite yesterday and surgery last night. Can't imagine I'll need to leave the Grumpy Old for a bit :-D

Ouch, I hope you’re ok.

 

[DesertRoo]

Nah. This is unhelpful hyperbole that feeds into anti-semitism.

Netanyahu is awful. Truly a horrible man. And yes, he's responsible for this war and it's prolonging. I don't want what I'm about to say be misconstrued as in anyway defending Bibi, Likud, Otzma, or the likes of Itamar Ben-Gvir.

But this notion that they 'want' a holy war or a larger war is not true.

Come on man, you don’t even believe this, bibi is beholden to the religious nutcases, they kept him in power, so he didn’t have to face corruption charges. Paying the piper is this overriding religious tripe.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

View attachment 1955949

The Imagine Dragons have spoken ... time to reassess our positions.

Eurovision is next month. I'd be surprised if Israel and the Ukraine aren't joint winners.

 

[ferball]

Just a timely reminder that, although Israel are unquestionably committing atrocities that cannot be excused under any circumstances, Hamas are also bloody awful and are prolonging the conflict through ineptitude, malice, and deceit.




View attachment 1955901

Rubbish. How is Hamas sposed to account for people under what is left of the rubble of Gaza?

This is not an endorsement of Hamas either, just pointing out that this standard is ridiculous.

 

[Del191229]

Netanyahu also prolonging the conflict because its the only way he stays out of jail.

 

[Del191229]

Ze Russians are not ****ing around any more.

 

[Del191229]

This is Bronze Age barbarism and if it is allowed to go ahead will create havoc.

Insanity.

 

[DesertRoo]

This is Bronze Age barbarism and if it is allowed to go ahead will create havoc.

Insanity.

Clearly this current conflict has nothing to religion in secular Israel, the symbolism is just purely antisemitic to bring up.

 

[Del191229]

Saying what can't be said: Israel has been defeated – a total defeat

The War's Aims Won't Be Achieved, the Hostages Won't Be Returned Through Military Pressure, Security Won't Be Restored and Israel's International Ostracism Won't End

www.haaretz.com

“Israel has been defeated - a total defeat. The war's aims won't be achieved, the hostages won't be returned through military pressure, security won't be restored and Israel's international ostracism won't end."

Ha'aretz not holding holding back - and they're right.

Immense Hamas W.

Sinwar now goes down in the history books as one of the great guerilla generals alongside Vo Nguyen Giap, Martin McGuinness and Houari Bouammedine

 

[DesertRoo]

Saying what can't be said: Israel has been defeated – a total defeat

The War's Aims Won't Be Achieved, the Hostages Won't Be Returned Through Military Pressure, Security Won't Be Restored and Israel's International Ostracism Won't End

www.haaretz.com

Ha'aretz not holding holding back - and they're right.

Immense Hamas W.

Sinwar now goes down in the history books as one of the great guerilla generals alongside Vo Nguyen Giap, Martin McGuinness and Houari Bouammedine

First couple of weeks when you heard Bibi talk about our western allies will take the displaced Palestinians, after Egypt shut the boarder. This was the only outcome.
It was either accept they'd been snookered into dealing with Hamas or commit genocide, Bibi choose the latter.

 

[bengrina]

Saying what can't be said: Israel has been defeated – a total defeat

The War's Aims Won't Be Achieved, the Hostages Won't Be Returned Through Military Pressure, Security Won't Be Restored and Israel's International Ostracism Won't End

www.haaretz.com

Ha'aretz not holding holding back - and they're right.

Immense Hamas W.

Sinwar now goes down in the history books as one of the great guerilla generals alongside Vo Nguyen Giap, Martin McGuinness and Houari Bouammedine

Unable to open if you were able to cut and paste mate? Thanks

 

[Del191229]

Clearly this current conflict has nothing to religion in secular Israel, the symbolism is just purely antisemitic to bring up.

Yeah, if this is allowed to go ahead, it markls the death knell for the "rpogressive" secular IT start up "part of the West" Israel that it likes to tell us it is.

And demonstrates its just another theocratic Middle East country like Iran or Saudi

 

[DesertRoo]

Yeah, if this is allowed to go ahead, it markls the death knell for the "rpogressive" secular IT start up "part of the West" Israel that it likes to tell us it is.

And demonstrates its just another theocratic Middle East country like Iran or Saudi

there's too much sun in that part of the world,
a couple of thousand years of fighting over some of the most barren landscapes in the world will do it to you.

 

[Del191229]

First couple of weeks when you heard Bibi talk about our western allies will take the displaced Palestinians, after Egypt shut the boarder. This was the only outcome.
It was either accept they'd been snookered into dealing with Hamas or commit genocide, Bibi choose the latter.

Yep, and the Egyptians are not budging here - and why should they?