Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[ferball]

Chill, man. There's no sinister meaning here.

The War of the Camps is the primary massacre I was thinking of, which was primarily perpetrated by Lebanese Shia.

It was relatively fresh in my memory because a) I learned about it from a Lebanese Lecturer at uni back in the day and he was very passionate about the subject (tbf, I don't recall if he was Lebanese Christian, or Muslim, and I acknowledge it could influence the way it was taught), and also because earlier this week I was reading this article, which refers to the War of the Camps as follows:

"And just three years after the Shatila massacre, in 1985, something started called the “War of the Camps.” That was Lebanese Shia, backed by Syria and Iran, laying siege to the Shatila and Bourj el-Barajneh camps for almost three years with untold numbers of dead and wounded among the Palestinians."

Also, I disagree with your assessment on the War of the Camps in several regards. I'll link sources where I can to support my positions, too.

1) The death toll of Palestinians was higher in the War of the Camps (3800 Palestinians, but that number is widely acknowledged to likely be much higher due to the number of undocumented Palestinian refugees~) than Tall al-Zatar (1600~) or the Sabra/Shatila massacres (which killed an estimated 2000-3000 Lebanese Shia and Palestinians)

2) The War of the Camps was unquestionably a massacre of Palestinian refugees, conducted primarily by Lebanese Shi'ites, in Beirut.

You're just trying to draw a false equivalence between what the IDF is doing and what groups like Hezbollah have done.

You quoted Ryan Crocker whose opinion could hardly be trusted.

Your source on the war of the camps says this:

Although the massacres described above account for around one-fifth of the 90,000 killed during the war, the largest number of civilians perished in almost daily shelling, sniper fire, murder and other indiscriminate acts more or less directly related to actual warfare throughout the 1975-1990 period. In the struggle for control over Palestinian camps in West Beirut, known as the “War of the Camps”, between former allies of the LNM from April 1985 to 1987, more than 2500 Palestinian fighters and non-fighters are estimated by the Lebanese government to have been killed (Brynen 1990: 190). The real number is likely to be higher, because thousands of Palestinians were not registered in Lebanon; and since no officials could access the camps in the aftermath of fighting, the casualties could not be counted. In addition, Amal and Shiite inhabitants suffered considerable losses (Sayigh 1994: 317).

Doesn't describe massacres, just general violence and you make no distinction in the numbers between combatants and non-combatants. The article itself says the general violence was so bad during that time that people were killed indiscriminately by cra bombs, artillery strikes and in crossfire. These incidents aren't actual massacres in the same way that many of the dead in gaza before Oct 7th weren't killed in massacres either.

If you're gonna claim Lebanese Shia massacred Palestinian civilians in a way that resembles the massacres carried out by the Christian Phalangists you need to provide dates and locations.

 

[ferball]

What about Kevin?

How far back do you want me to go? Sure include Kevin.

 

[Val Keating]

I have screenshots (needed them back when you/he accused me of doxxing, to defend myself).

But to be fair it looks like he's gone back and deleted the posts in question, which is his right.

So I won't share them.

Either way, I had no idea and you sent me his name via PM.

 

[the big lebowski]

Australia is basically a police state that pissed away whatever opportunities it had because the population are led around by the nose by neo-liberal arseholes who keep telling them the most vulnerable people in the world are gpoing to **** them over while those same neo-lib arseholes actually do.

If you had any real pride in your country you'd be pissed off that our politicians on both sides allow humungous mining companies with insane wealth to take our resources for **** all while those pollies line up million dollar pa jobs for when they leave parliament. That indigenous people have the worst outcomes on the planet by any metric in terms of quality of life in what's sposed to be the richest place on earth. That people get sent to jail for simply stopping traffic while trying to draw attention to the complete lack of action on a real threat to everyone's well being - climate change or that anyone in this country is homeless.

You'd be pissed that our constitution is a joke. That some dotard, inbred ** from another country is our head of state, that real wages have fallen for over a decade, that we don't give a ** about our flora and fauna or environment and that when the most desperate people in the world do whatever they can to come here and experience our famed freedom and "fair go" we lock them in concentration camps.

You'd be pissed off that a country with such big tickets on itself is so mean-spirited, narrow-minded and gutless.

Actually I’m incredibly proud and feel lucky.

Im proud that I was born in a country that has taken generations of people of need and made them one of us

Im proud that I was born in a country that has seen some of my overseas born friends be able to create the life for themselves that their parents were desperate for them to have a chance at

I’m proud that my indigenous family members live the life they want to live full to the brim of opportunities

I’m proud to live in a country where every 3 years the people get a chance to transfer power, with nary an argument or incident of violence

I’m proud that I live in a country that allows people to be themselves, even the self loathing Aussies. When people can’t be themselves we change the law to accommodate

I’m proud to live in a country where just about everyone across the world wants to live in or respect

I’m proud to live in a country where a woman has lead the country and will again

I’m proud to live in a country where my medical needs are taken care of and paid for by the tax payer

I’m proud that if I was an older person I would be taken care of as well at the tax payers expense

I just wish those that hate it so much, ****ed off to Afghanistan, haiti or Bolivia or sumfink.

Go live in china under CCP rule

Or Russia, and then go straight to the front line in Ukraine

Or don’t and just complain about how we live in such a shit country that everyone wants to move to

Whatever

 

[the big lebowski]

You are in great company


Scott Morrison
30th Prime Minister of Australia (2018-2022}
4y

Australia really is the best country in the world to live.

How are those stats going about Australia being the world leader in domestic violence?

 

[andana]

It must be easy to win an argument when you can just make stuff up

I don't have arguments with people on here especially with someone who believes in weird superstitions

 

[Sphynx]

How far back do you want me to go? Sure include Kevin.

I was more saying, he’s one of the PM’s to make some of the biggest social improvements with indigenous Australians in history.

 

[Chadwiko]

You're just trying to draw a false equivalence between what the IDF is doing and what groups like Hezbollah have done.

No.

You quoted Ryan Crocker whose opinion could hardly be trusted.

He's been a Middle East ambassador for four decades, under both Democrats and Republicans. If he's not a trusted source, who is?

Either way, not sure why you're getting hung up on this.

Academics describe the War on the Camps as a massacre of Palestinians by Lebanese Shia.
Experts in the field describe the War on the Camps as a massacre of Palestinians by Lebanese Shia.
Multiple sources I provided you describe the War on the Camps as a massacre of Palestinians by Lebanese Shia.

Your source on the war of the camps says this:

Yes, it does. I suggest you keep reading the next few paragraphs.

 

[ferball]

Actually I’m incredibly proud and feel lucky.

Im proud that I was born in a country that has taken generations of people of need and made them one of us

Im proud that I was born in a country that has seen some of my overseas born friends be able to create the life for themselves that their parents were desperate for them to have a chance at

I’m proud that my indigenous family members live the life they want to live full to the brim of opportunities

I’m proud to live in a country where every 3 years the people get a chance to transfer power, with nary an argument or incident of violence

I’m proud that I live in a country that allows people to be themselves, even the self loathing Aussies. When people can’t be themselves we change the law to accommodate

I’m proud to live in a country where just about everyone across the world wants to live in or respect

I’m proud to live in a country where a woman has lead the country and will again

I’m proud to live in a country where my medical needs are taken care of and paid for by the tax payer

I’m proud that if I was an older person I would be taken care of as well at the tax payers expense

I just wish those that hate it so much, ****ed off to Afghanistan, haiti or Bolivia or sumfink.

Go live in china under CCP rule

Or Russia, and then go straight to the front line in Ukraine

Or don’t and just complain about how we live in such a shit country that everyone wants to move to

Whatever

You're talking about the state. **** the state. Its not the country.

I love the place and most of the people to the point where I've repeatedly put my life on the line to keep them safe for decades. What have you done?

 

[the big lebowski]

You're talking about the state. **** the state. Its not the country.

I love the place and most of the people to the point where I've repeatedly put my life on the line to keep them safe for decades. What have you done?

Can you please explain the first part

 

[Chadwiko]

Feels like there's a lot of arguing for arguing's sake going on in here tonight.

And that's me saying that.

 

[travelli]

Feels like there's a lot of arguing for arguing's sake going on in here tonight.

And that's me saying that.

When does the ****ing draft start!

 

[ferball]

I was more saying, he’s one of the PM’s to make some of the biggest social improvements with indigenous Australians in history.

Okay.

LOL I thought you were referring to this:

They all white anted, abused people and gatekept their way to the top and they work hard to stay there.

 

[Chadwiko]

When does the ****ing draft start!

Draft too far away to care about.

It's NFL and NBA season, baby!

 

[ferball]

No.



He's been a Middle East ambassador for four decades, under both Democrats and Republicans. If he's not a trusted source, who is?

No US ambassador is, especially him.

Either way, not sure why you're getting hung up on this.

Academics describe the War on the Camps as a massacre of Palestinians by Lebanese Shia.
Experts in the field describe the War on the Camps as a massacre of Palestinians by Lebanese Shia.
Multiple sources I provided you describe the War on the Camps as a massacre of Palestinians by Lebanese Shia.

None of your sources did that.

Yes, it does. I suggest you keep reading the next few paragraphs.

I did. No mention of Lebanese Shia massacring palestinians. Just lots of refernces to people's testimonies of the time, none of which are available to me.

None of the other references detail massacres, just sieges and urban fighting.

 

[Chadwiko]

No US ambassador is, especially him.

Brother, he was literally stationed in Beirut at the time. He was in the Beirut Embassy when it was bombed in '83.

If you're just gonna discount his account because he's American, then gee... I don't know what to say. But there's no point continuing the conversation.

 

[Chadwiko]

I really don't understand why you're arguing against a very wide-spread established fact ferball. There's ample primary sources you can find yourself that cover the War of the Camps. All of them describe it as attacks by Shia Lebanese forces against Palestinians.




Associated Press, September 1985;
Palestinian refugees in Sabra, Chatilla and Bourj al-Barajneh.

For a month this summer, Shiite moslems fought Palestinians for control of the camps of Beirut. More than six hundred Palestinians died. Sporadic clashes continue as Shiite moslems try to stop Yasser Arafat's PLO fighters returning to Lebanon. We return to the camps, where many are still dying.

Fighting in the camps May 1985 between Shi'ite Amal and Palestinian militias.





When I first raised the issue I wasn't specifically targeting Shia. I was simply pointing out that Palestinians have a very troubled history with their neighbour Muslim-majority countries in the Middle East, and this was one example.

Absolutely bewildered as to what point you think you're making by arguing against easily verified facts.

 

[ferball]

Can you please explain the first part

The state is a series of institutions that have a parasite like existence feeding off the resources of the residents of a location. LOL. They are the institutions that regulate and control the relationships between people and they regulate and control other things too.

While some of the people in a country work to maintain the state the state itself isn;'t the people or the country - ie the land and everything else living on it. When people talk about how proud they are of the country most of the time they mean the state, not the people and not the place itself. If you press them they'll often acknowledge those other things tho.

So the free medical treatment for some things (that's been progressively wound back over the last 30 years), the right of residence for some people, the changes to laws to allow people to be themselves and all the rest... they're all actions of the state. Some of those things are great I agree. But the failings of the state i listed are serious and only scratch the surface.

YOur attitude reminds me of this:

 

[ferball]

Brother, he was literally stationed in Beirut at the time. He was in the Beirut Embassy when it was bombed in '83.

If you're just gonna discount his account because he's American, then gee... I don't know what to say. But there's no point continuing the conversation.

He was literally not stationed in Beiruit at the time of the War of the Camps. He was in the US. He left Beiruit after the bombing. According to wikipedia he was at the Office or Israel and Israeli-Arab Affairs, whatever that was or is during most of that conflict.

 

[ferball]

I really don't understand why you're arguing against a very wide-spread established fact ferball. There's ample primary sources you can find yourself that cover the War of the Camps. All of them describe it as attacks by Shia Lebanese forces against Palestinians.




Associated Press, September 1985;
Palestinian refugees in Sabra, Chatilla and Bourj al-Barajneh.

For a month this summer, Shiite moslems fought Palestinians for control of the camps of Beirut. More than six hundred Palestinians died. Sporadic clashes continue as Shiite moslems try to stop Yasser Arafat's PLO fighters returning to Lebanon. We return to the camps, where many are still dying.

Fighting in the camps May 1985 between Shi'ite Amal and Palestinian militias.





When I first raised the issue I wasn't specifically targeting Shia. I was simply pointing out that Palestinians have a very troubled history with their neighbour Muslim-majority countries in the Middle East, and this was one example.

Absolutely bewildered as to what point you think you're making by arguing against easily verified facts.

You said that palestinians were massacred by Shia Lebanese.

This is a conflict between armed groups.

There's nothing in that video about massacres, just groups fighting. The women and children were alive ffs.

They are different things. The other massacres by the Phalangists are called massacres because after the seige and conflict ended one group killed as many of the survivors as they could.

 

[Sphynx]

 

[Chadwiko]

You said that palestinians were massacred by Shia Lebanese.

This is a conflict between armed groups.

There's nothing in that video about massacres, just groups fighting. The women and children were alive ffs.

They are different things. The other massacres by the Phalangists are called massacres because after the seige and conflict ended one group killed as many of the survivors as they could.

Okay you clearly have your head in the sand on this issue for some reason and are hearing what you want to hear.

I'm done.

I'm content to stick with the academics, experts, and primary sources on the issue.

 

[Chadwiko]

How it started:







How it's going:







If only anyone could have seen the utter failure of Libertarian populist bullshit coming from a mile away!

 

[Chadwiko]

Apparently Hashem Safieddine, who likely would have been the new Hezbollah leader, was also taken out by an IDF airstrike in Beirut recently.

 

[ferball]

Okay you clearly have your head in the sand on this issue for some reason and are hearing what you want to hear.

I'm done.

I'm content to stick with the academics, experts, and primary sources on the issue.

None of which you've provided that support a massacre.

You were trying to claim some nuance about air strikes the other day but you can't apply it now. There was fighting at Sabra for example and as soon as it fell Amal declared a cease fire. This is not what happens during a massacre. Furthermore you haven't provided one primary source on the situation but instead relied on the word of someone who was at Princeton at the time and has an obvious agenda.