Mega Thread The Random Thoughts Thread Part 3: Try Hard with a Kengeance

[Papa G]

".... [the women] were charged with “setting up” the ENIAC to perform computation tasks. They are widely celebrated as the world’s first computer programmers."

They may be "widely celebrated" but they were computer operators not programmers.

 

[Steve Dore]

View attachment 318953

Is that how you see Portia?

 

[Portia]

".... [the women] were charged with “setting up” the ENIAC to perform computation tasks. They are widely celebrated as the world’s first computer programmers."

They may be "widely celebrated" but they were computer operators not programmers.

Read the article you muppet. Complex problem solving etc, actually read it.

And btw if its not 'prepare computers for another user to interact with' wtf do you even think programmers do?

 

[Steve Dore]

Read the article you muppet. Complex problem solving etc, actually read it.

And btw if its not 'prepare computers for another user to interact with' wtf do you even think programmers do?

I read the article. Yeah, I have no idea what programmers do

 

[Malibu#27]

I read the article. Yeah, I have no idea what programmers do

I'm guessing your a SW eng as well

Heres the machine:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/eniac.html

The ENIAC was not a stored-program computer; it is "better described as a collection of electronic adding machines and other arithmetic units, which were originally controlled by a web of large electrical cables"

Incidentally, from the article Portia quoted:

However, says Ensmenger, the presence of these women did not indicate that managers of the ENIAC project had modern attitudes toward women in the workforce. Rather, managers hired women because they expected programming to be a low-skill clerical function, akin to filing, typing, or telephone switching. Assuming that the real “brain work” in electronic computing would be limited to the hardware side, managers reserved these tasks for male engineers.

And from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC:

These early programmers were drawn from a group of about two hundred female "computers" who studied at the Moore School of Electrical Engineering at the University of Pennsylvania. One of the few technical job categories available to women was computing the results of mathematical formulas for science and engineering, usually with a mechanical calculator.[31] Betty Holberton (nee Snyder) continued on to invent the first sorting algorithm and help design the first commercial computers, the UNIVAC and the BINAC, alongside Jean Jennings.

Herman Goldstine selected the programmers, then called "operators", from the human "computers" who had been calculating ballistics tables with desk calculators and a differential analyzer prior to and during the development of ENIAC.[30] Under Herman and Adele Goldstine's direction, the programmers studied ENIAC's blueprints and physical structure to determine how to manipulate its switches and cables, rather than learning a programming language.

So the first article suggests women were chosen because they saw it as a low skilled function, the second article says women were used because they were skilled in the work needed to be done. (It also fails to mention that in those war years a lot of men and women were oversees at war with a greater % of men in the field of war). Its also probably fair to say that in these war years, salary and pay conditions weren't the #1 priority.

What it also shows is the emergence of a new technology, and how long it takes to be recognised for what it is.

I don't really consider what they were doing - or others such as Turing to be programming, but mathematics, which evolved into programming as we know it, but was still multiple iteration away.

 

[PAFC04]

Read the article you muppet. Complex problem solving etc, actually read it.

And btw if its not 'prepare computers for another user to interact with' wtf do you even think programmers do?

I read the article. Yeah, I have no idea what programmers do

Electronics back in 1946 was all about switching one light bulb off and other one ON. Which is what is today with regards to digital.

One could argue that programmers of 1946 were basically calculator operators just as you are using a $2 calculator today, however the two engineers that designed the ENIAC system are the programmers as they are the ones who programmed the system to provide results that are entered by the operators.

What I make of the article is that women are better at multitasking than men.

 

[PAFC04]

I'm guessing your a SW eng as well

Heres the machine:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/eniac.html

Incidentally, from the article Portia quoted:


And from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC:


So the first article suggests women were chosen because they saw it as a low skilled function, the second article says women were used because they were skilled in the work needed to be done. (It also fails to mention that in those war years a lot of men and women were oversees at war with a greater % of men in the field of war). Its also probably fair to say that in these war years, salary and pay conditions weren't the #1 priority.

What it also shows is the emergence of a new technology, and how long it takes to be recognised for what it is.

I don't really consider what they were doing - or others such as Turing to be programming, but mathematics, which evolved into programming as we know it, but was still multiple iteration away.

I could be wrong, but what they were doing then is what I call the "Firmware" which is what runs every single electronics device, you could even call them the voltage operators which was then replaced with the transistor.

 

[ScooterBrother]

Actually it appears everyone is wrong and everyone is right. Further googling and wiki-ing the history of the ENIAC machine indicates 6 women were chosen - not because they were good at data entry, but because they were from a pool of mathematicians suited to solving complex problems during the war years although peers considered the task clerical and that the task of designing the machine was the real challenge- so they weren't given the credit deserved of them.

There's no mention of salaries but I'm guessing wartime salaries were pretty average.

Margaret Hamilton and Grace Hopper finally getting recognised by Barack Obama at the Medal of Freedom ceremony this year was a step in the right direction. Women were major contributors to the pioneering times of computing history. At the time it was considered just shitty admin clerical work. As that is all women were good for after all.

As soon as computing power began to be recognised, and more men joined in, the "value" society put on it went up. Its the exact phenomena that occurs not infrequently (and is explained in the study I referenced earlier*) when genders balances chance within an occupation. Women come in, value goes down, Men come in, value goes up.

*http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/88/2/865.full.pdf+html?sid=5ca542df-b895-44f5-a4e7-1dcaff020454

 

[ScooterBrother]

".... [the women] were charged with “setting up” the ENIAC to perform computation tasks. They are widely celebrated as the world’s first computer programmers."

They may be "widely celebrated" but they were computer operators not programmers.

Hahahaha

Case. In. Point.

women do it = computer operators
men do it = computer programmers

 

[ScooterBrother]

I read the article. Yeah, I have no idea what programmers do

I do. And it was programming.

In addition what these women did was way harder and intellectually demanding than "programming" JavaScript.

 

[Malibu#27]

In addition what these women did was way harder and intellectually demanding than "programming" JavaScript.

To be fair - most things are.

 

[ScooterBrother]

To be fair - most things are.

Agreed!

And it would be mostly men right? Do a seek search for JavaScript developer...

Check those salaries and compare them to an "easy" job that is in an industry where women are the majority

 

[Steve Dore]

Hahahaha

Case. In. Point.

women do it = computer operators
men do it = computer programmers

That may be how you see it but is not how I see it. I have worked in IT for decades and have seen many women and men progress from operators to programmers. Decades ago that was a very valid career path. I have worked with some very good programmers of both genders just as I have worked with some very poor programmers of both genders. Please do not project your gender bias onto me.

I do. And it was programming.

In addition what these women did was way harder and intellectually demanding than "programming" JavaScript.

A scripting language is a very low bar as far as programming is concerned.

 

[Malibu#27]

Agreed!

And it would be mostly men right? Do a seek search for JavaScript developer...

Check those salaries and compare them to an "easy" job that is in an industry women are the majority

You can't compare cross industry like that. when I say "easy" I'm comparing it to the wider SW engineering area.
I used to pick stone fruit in my holidays while going through uni - the pay was shit, and on a 40 degree day the job sucked, and it was mainly men that did it - that doesn't mean I was discriminated against, when comparing it to other higher paying jobs.

A javascript programmer is just that - a javascript programmer.... anyone is welcome to do it - personally, I wouldn't as the challenge isn't there - but there's some demand for it.

I'm not a fan of non-degree SW engineers, so i'd only talk about that, but generally when a CV comes across my desk there are key skills and traits we are looking at - which are independent of gender, however the total number coming through the system is probably not as high as it needs to be, (hence the government STEM in schools pushes), and within these numbers the % of females is still underrepresented.
To me true SW eng is so much more than cutting code - the code cutting is a small part, especially in complex real time systems or simulators..

 

[Doctor Feel]

AO confirmed for a day night ashes test next year.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

AO confirmed for a day night ashes test next year.

Booo

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

AO confirmed for a day night ashes test next year.

Counting the sleeps huh

 

[ScooterBrother]

That may be how you see it but is not how I see it. I have worked in IT for decades and have seen many women and men progress from operators to programmers. Decades ago that was a very valid career path. I have worked with some very good programmers of both genders just as I have worked with some very poor programmers of both genders. Please do not project your gender bias onto me.

Its not meant to be personal and specific. Think of it like demographics.

What is true for the group, is not necessarily true for the individual.

You might be the most progressive amazing and fair IT pro for miles, but that doesn't make the trend for the broader group also not true.

A scripting language is a very low bar as far as programming is concerned.

This is a slippery slope argument and always results in someone getting defensive and pissy about their chosen profession.

In my mind anything that a human does to automate machine thinking is programming.

 

[HugeJohnson]

Is Roger Rasheed serious?

 

[ScooterBrother]

You can't compare cross industry like that. when I say "easy" I'm comparing it to the wider SW engineering area.

Why not? Compare pay structures, agreements, contracts, heirachies etc etc

It's a cop out to just say "nahh, this is a technical area, you cant compare it to social research or medicine or teaching or child care or human resources"

We don't want to compare it because we know the answer is uncomfortable. And that answer is:

Our gloriously prestigious and male dominated technical industries aren't special, don't have more demand, don't have less supply, aren't more difficult than the industries women dominate.

They just inexplicably pay better.

 

[Malibu#27]

It's a cop out to just say "nahh, this is a technical area, you cant compare it to social research or medicine or teaching or child care or human resources"

Why - because some careers are higher paying than others - its a fact of life, supply and demand etc - if you choose to follow a career path that has a lower pay scale, that's a decision you make. I chose at high school to study and aim for the career I wanted when my mates were ****ing around - do I care now if they are working manual labour for bugger all - not really, they made their choice.

If two people with the same role, same responsibilities, same experience are not being rewarded in the same way - that's discrimination, but in my eyes saying that there are salary gaps between careers and that these are based on gender lines doesn't cut it. There's a lot of bloody low paying jobs out there, they aren't all held by women.

My partner makes shit loads more than me, but shes is in an industry that in general is high paying - she worked hard to get there and deserves what she gets, its a challenging and stressful technical industry - I chose not to go into that industry - so I see no point complaining that I don't get as much.

I'm assuming your not suggesting child carers or nurses (for instance) should be paid the same as doctors ? ...because thats how its coming across.


What I can say - in my industry (SW Engineering) is that I've seen a significant number of women leave their career after 6-10 years to have a family and never return - or return part time. I suggested maybe I should stay at home and look after our future kids - as I could do a lot of my work from home, but my partner will have nothing of it unfortunately for me - so much for equality !!

 

[Doctor Feel]

Is Roger Rasheed serious?

Yes.

 

[Papa G]

Why - because some careers are higher paying than others - its a fact of life, supply and demand etc - if you choose to follow a career path that has a lower pay scale, that's a decision you make. I chose at high school to study and aim for the career I wanted when my mates were ******* around - do I care now if they are working manual labour for bugger all - not really, they made their choice.

If two people with the same role, same responsibilities, same experience are not being rewarded in the same way - that's discrimination, but in my eyes saying that there are salary gaps between careers and that these are based on gender lines doesn't cut it. There's a lot of bloody low paying jobs out there, they aren't all held by women.

My partner makes shit loads more than me, but shes is in an industry that in general is high paying - she worked hard to get there and deserves what she gets, its a challenging and stressful technical industry - I chose not to go into that industry - so I see no point complaining that I don't get as much.

I'm assuming your not suggesting child carers or nurses (for instance) should be paid the same as doctors ? ...because thats how its coming across.


What I can say - in my industry (SW Engineering) is that I've seen a significant number of women leave their career after 6-10 years to have a family and never return - or return part time. I suggested maybe I should stay at home and look after our future kids - as I could do a lot of my work from home, but my partner will have nothing of it unfortunately for me - so much for equality !!

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Did laugh at Kyrgios hitting back at criticism from Rasheed

"John McEnroe takes a stab, I understand, Roger Rasheed haha maybe not so much. I got to ur career high when I was 18... ease up champ"

 

[Doctor Feel]

Rasheed is an excellent manager and a great mentor, he was not as gifted as some others on the court but he is very gifted between the ears.