The Real GWS (Club AFL) Academy Advantage 2017 Spelt Out

[Furn2]

It's a massive , especially considering that all evidence points to sides in non traditional states having a significant advantage over traditional AFL states.

 

[footyfan1978]

Setterfield from Albury region.
Cummings from Broken Hill region.
Given Dean Solomon and Tex Walker in recent decades from Broken Hill hardly an area that not developed football talent before.
Albury is clearly a region of football world that is not new to football.

Two players GWS got through Academy system that are at the top end of talented youth that disadvantage others clubs.
I actually did not realise they were given so much until this weekend in terms of Academy being more that what it should be. It should be for developing talent in regions that normally be seen as not producing football talent and new to our game. How did they get given these regions to start with ?
Clearly a massive oversight that hopefully fixed up soon.

 

[coniglio_number1]

Setterfield from Albury region.
Cummings from Broken Hill region.
Given Dean Solomon and Tex Walker in recent decades from Broken Hill hardly an area that not developed football talent before.
Albury is clearly a region of football world that is not new to football.

Two players GWS got through Academy system that are at the top end of talented youth that disadvantage others clubs.
I actually did not realise they were given so much until this weekend in terms of Academy being more that what it should be. It should be for developing talent in regions that normally be seen as not producing football talent and new to our game. How did they get given these regions to start with ?
Clearly a massive oversight that hopefully fixed up soon.

Tex walker was a scholarship player. Actually supports the argument that he would've been lost to the afl without intervention

 

[footyfan1978]

Tex walker was a scholarship player. Actually supports the argument that he would've been lost to the afl without intervention

Good point. Type of things I like to find out about.
If an area is genuine new area to add to talent pool, I am happy to see those type of things encouraged.

 

[Taylor]

I don't have any issue with it.

Just as I expect nobody will have an issue if Fremantle are able to take two top five talents from the Kimberly region as academy players in three years... With a series of picks in the twenties.

Swings and roundabouts

 

[Colonial]

I don't have any issue with it.

Just as I expect nobody will have an issue if Fremantle are able to take two top five talents from the Kimberly region as academy players in three years... With a series of picks in the twenties.

Swings and roundabouts

Am all for academies in regions in your owns states.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

 

[Bokonon_]

I don't have any issue with it.

Just as I expect nobody will have an issue if Fremantle are able to take two top five talents from the Kimberly region as academy players in three years... With a series of picks in the twenties.

Swings and roundabouts

Well yeah
But wouldn't wouldn't a discount and opportunity to match bids be more appropriate, like the Nothern academies? If Fremantle put resources into developing and supporting talent in the Kimberley absolutely there should be a preferred pathway to the club. Dont understand why this doesn't happen for WA and SA clubs already. Everyone bebefits if local talent has an increased chance to stay in their home state. Vic clubs is more complicated because of the number of competing clubs there I think

 

[Taylor]

Well yeah
But wouldn't wouldn't a discount and opportunity to match bids be more appropriate, like the Nothern academies? If Fremantle put resources into developing and supporting talent in the Kimberley absolutely there should be a preferred pathway to the club. Dont understand why this doesn't happen for WA and SA clubs already. Everyone bebefits if local talent has an increased chance to stay in their home state. Vic clubs is more complicated because of the number of competing clubs there I think

There are so many talented young men up there who don't find the path to AFL or get pulled away from it by a culture that isn't as supportive of moving days of travel away.

I'd love for Freo to have half our side made of indigenous men, that every young man knows there is a home here, heroes here to look up to and idolise.

When that happens the academy will be the least of the AFL's worries as talent is attracted even post draft in the exact same way the Sydney clubs will start calling their players home.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Well yeah
But wouldn't wouldn't a discount and opportunity to match bids be more appropriate, like the Nothern academies? If Fremantle put resources into developing and supporting talent in the Kimberley absolutely there should be a preferred pathway to the club. Dont understand why this doesn't happen for WA and SA clubs already. Everyone bebefits if local talent has an increased chance to stay in their home state. Vic clubs is more complicated because of the number of competing clubs there I think

I don't think a discount is necessary. If Freo can match a bid from another club then great however a discount makes it an uneven playing ground just like the northern clubs have.

No need for charity

 

[Bokonon_]

I don't think a discount is necessary. If Freo can match a bid from another club then great however a discount makes it an uneven playing ground just like the northern clubs have.

No need for charity

I dont think it's charity, more a reward for effort. We wont agree on much but it in the long run it has to be the same rules for everone, I agree. Bear in mind we do fund our academies as the other Northern clubs do, ourselves.
The VIC clubs are the real problem regarding equity I think.

 

[hujsh]

You are missing some key points - MAJOR AFL revenue sources are TV Rights and Sponsorship ... speaking from experience you look at audience size.

I would happily give up NT & Tasmania to gain a strong foothold in the West Sydney Market.



On that logic I cant wait to see Bendigo, Mt Gambier, Albury, Cairns etc have their teams in the competition.

Like it or not its all about the $$$$ the AFL can derive from TV rights & Sponsorship.

But keep going I cant take you seriously until the supporters of a team are funding their own team not the AFL via TV rights & Sponsorship. Lets be honest there are too many teams in Victoria - 2 or 3 have to go.

I think it's you who's missing some key points (and you edited out where I I mentioned the point you say I missed). If GWS doesn't actually bring in new viewers then they are no different to a Tassie team except they have less ability to bring in revenue and support themselves though memberships, merchandise etc. TV rights is king but eventually you have to walk the walk and provide some value to that TV rights deal.

You seem to claim that we already benefit financially from having you in the comp but unless GWS is actually getting people in West Sydney or NSW generally to watch who weren't before, the claim appears to be spurious.

On second reading it's possible I've interpreted your post in a way you didn't intend with regards to it not being a national game before GWS was involved. This makes sense as it's a pretty silly argument to make.

 

[hujsh]

Well yeah
But wouldn't wouldn't a discount and opportunity to match bids be more appropriate, like the Nothern academies? If Fremantle put resources into developing and supporting talent in the Kimberley absolutely there should be a preferred pathway to the club. Dont understand why this doesn't happen for WA and SA clubs already. Everyone bebefits if local talent has an increased chance to stay in their home state. Vic clubs is more complicated because of the number of competing clubs there I think

I think the point is more that they would't have to invest resources in the area because it already produces elite talent so they'd just be getting players on the cheap. Even if they put money into an academy it'd be more paying cash for draft advantages

I say that with no knowledge of the Kimberly but inferred it though the tone of the post as I read it.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

I dont think it's charity, more a reward for effort. We wont agree on much but it in the long run it has to be the same rules for everone, I agree. Bear in mind we do fund our academies as the other Northern clubs do, ourselves.
The VIC clubs are the real problem regarding equity I think.

This is why I disagree

Firstly the funding GWS pit into that region is actually AFL funding and not self generated. Yes obviously GWS as a club does put in a great effort promoting football throughout their allocated region.

But discounts is unfair on other clubs with the option to go into debt with points. The AFL wants regions to expand the game and clubs want regions to strengthen their club and fair enough. But other clubs don't have this opportunity so why disadvantage them?

Vic clubs have to compete with each other to stay afloat. They have far greater membership numbers however most clubs but less cash to splash on their facilities and staff etc

 

[Bokonon_]

I think the point is more that they would't have to invest resources in the area because it already produces elite talent so they'd just be getting players on the cheap. Even if they put money into an academy it'd be more paying cash for draft advantages

I say that with no knowledge of the Kimberly but inferred it though the tone of the post as I read it.

Neither do I and thats why I dont crtique Fremantles efforts there. I do understand they have an outreach programme and think this should be rewarded and expanded.

I think the academies are a wonderful idea for the game. For me personally I come from a remote area of NSW that has always been AFL territory. Some players from there have made it in the past mostly through scholarships provided by SA clubs that allowed them to move young and get the training and competition needed to make it.Others that might have made it undoubtedly missed out.

This year through our academy 2 players were drafted into the giants from my home town, and it's hard to explain how happy that makes me feel. If you grew up in Melbourne or another AFL city with a team, I dont think you'd get what it's like to support clubs without a link to your home, because you would have always had it to some extent . Lucky you.

Maybe they would have made it without the Giants academy and maybe not. I'm sure it helped and made it more likely they will succeed and others will follow.

The draft will always mean teams wont be made up of fully local.talent I get and accept, but I'll be cheering loudly when they take the field in giants colours, either in our NEAFL or AFL sides.

 

[Bokonon_]

This is why I disagree

Firstly the funding GWS pit into that region is actually AFL funding and not self generated. Yes obviously GWS as a club does put in a great effort promoting football throughout their allocated region.

But discounts is unfair on other clubs with the option to go into debt with points. The AFL wants regions to expand the game and clubs want regions to strengthen their club and fair enough. But other clubs don't have this opportunity so why disadvantage them?

Vic clubs have to compete with each other to stay afloat. They have far greater membership numbers however most clubs but less cash to splash on their facilities and staff etc

It actually isn't largely AFL funding, it's mostly sponsorships arranged directly by the club. The AFL has said it supports academies for all clubs and is looking to provide seed funding for all clubs. It's a work in progress and I think it's great. I really believe expansion is the answer to the inequity. I agree at the moment it isn't sustainable long term because it isn't fair. Whatever the advantage given to the clubs long term is fine with me as long as there is some, and yes it needs to be equal.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

It actually isn't largely AFL funding, it's mostly sponsorships arranged directly by the club. The AFL has said it supports academies for all clubs and is looking to provide seed funding for all clubs. It's a work in progress and I think it's great. I really believe expansion is the answer to the inequity. I agree at the moment it isn't sustainable long term because it isn't fair. Whatever the advantage given to the clubs long term is fine with me as long as there is some, and yes it needs to be equal.

The AFL talks a lot without actually doing anything.

As silly as it sounds, under the current rules, limiting clubs to picking players from their states would create more equality. Vic, SA and WA produce enough players to satisfy their clubs as do GWS under the current academy arrangement. Sydney would probably need their zone extended and I'm not sure whether QLD is producing enough top level talent but it would equalise the rest of the country.

Bit of a left field idea and not ideal but some food for thought.

The issue a lot have with GWS in particular is their ability to pick the cream of the crop from the nation AND have priority over players from their academy.

 

[Dr Whoooooooo]

I think it's you who's missing some key points (and you edited out where I I mentioned the point you say I missed). If GWS doesn't actually bring in new viewers then they are no different to a Tassie team except they have less ability to bring in revenue and support themselves though memberships, merchandise etc. TV rights is king but eventually you have to walk the walk and provide some value to that TV rights deal.

I actually think what you say makes perfect sense. Now lets extend your logic one step further ...

How can GWS "actually bring in new viewers" ... How do you give GWS a chance "to walk the walk and provide some value to that TV rights deal"

Put yourself in the AFL shoes ... What is your strategy ...

Did the AFL set up a committee of existing clubs representatives and then proceed to adopt their recommendations? Why do you think the AFL did that?

The end prize is huge ... What would you do?

 

[Pedantic]

Tex walker was a scholarship player. Actually supports the argument that he would've been lost to the afl without intervention

Broken Hill is a football town and has been since it was founded in the 19th century. Walker's old man played 300+ games in the Broken Hill league, there is absolutely no chance he would have been lost to the game.

It is absurd that Broken Hill was part of the NSW Scholarship program then and it is absurd now that it is part of GWS's zone.

 

[coniglio_number1]

Broken Hill is a football town and has been since it was founded in the 19th century. Walker's old man played 300+ games in the Broken Hill league, there is absolutely no chance he would have been lost to the game.

It is absurd that Broken Hill was part of the NSW Scholarship program then and it is absurd now that it is part of GWS's zone.

So his dad couldn't make it to the VFL or SANFL with the development he got in broken hill? Supports my arguement.

I'm sure there's 300 gamers in areas like Newcastle so there's no point developing players from there right?

 

[Pedantic]

So his dad couldn't make it to the VFL or SANFL with the development he got in broken hill? Supports my arguement.

I'm sure there's 300 gamers in areas like Newcastle so there's no point developing players from there right?

How many Magarey Medallists has Newcastle produced?

Not everyone who plays local footy is good enough to make it to the top level. Taylor Walker played in the BHFL until he was drafted, he didn't need any 'development' from that scholarship program.

Likewise Isaac Cumming didn't need any 'development' from GWS academy. North Adelaide are the ones who actually deserve credit there. Similar to several other Giants academy players who spent most of their junior ages 15-18 playing TAC Cup or private school football in Victoria. These are kids who have grown up with the game and were never any chance of being lost to the sport.

 

[Wee Jessies]

I think people are over reacting a bit on the GWS thing. Things to note

- They needed some concessions in a new market with no players
- Of their first 22 first round picks 12 left the club.
- They have been very shrewd with their acquisition of mature age players like Shaw and Patfull.
- They had an exceptional run with injury in 2016.

Talent aside they seem to be very well drilled and very fit side but I don't see them as untouchable and the salary cap will keep them honest.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

I think people are over reacting a bit on the GWS thing. Things to note

- They needed some concessions in a new market with no players
- Of their first 22 first round picks 12 left the club.
- They have been very shrewd with their acquisition of mature age players like Shaw and Patfull.
- They had an exceptional run with injury in 2016.

Talent aside they seem to be very well drilled and very fit side but I don't see them as untouchable and the salary cap will keep them honest.

Most of their first rounders who have been traded away were no chance of getting a game and GWS have been happy to trade them.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

How many Magarey Medallists has Newcastle produced?

Not everyone who plays local footy is good enough to make it to the top level. Taylor Walker played in the BHFL until he was drafted, he didn't need any 'development' from that scholarship program.

Likewise Isaac Cumming didn't need any 'development' from GWS academy. North Adelaide are the ones who actually deserve credit there. Similar to several other Giants academy players who spent most of their junior ages 15-18 playing TAC Cup or private school football in Victoria. These are kids who have grown up with the game and were never any chance of being lost to the sport.

Like Charlie Spargo (top 5 next year) who's Dad played for North Melbourne but would have been lost to the game without GWS haha

I love that bullshit argument.

 

[footyfan1978]

I think people are over reacting a bit on the GWS thing. Things to note
- Of their first 22 first round picks 12 left the club.
Talent aside they seem to be very well drilled and very fit side but I don't see them as untouchable and the salary cap will keep them honest.

Overall I agree with sentiment of your post of there tends to be an over-reaction but the Academy region is a legitimate concern of being a bit unfair on other clubs. Needs fixing up. They got given generous concessions but personally happier to have that happen than the other extreme of Brisbane Bears got scraps and cast offs at start.

Now on this stat you brought up that I have highlighted in bold. Please go into further detail. I not sure what research you done but how many of their first round picks have re-generated more early picks by being traded or gained mature quality players like Ryan Griffen to midfield ?

I think that is far more important to look at than just saying some throw away stat of how many first rounds picks left the club with no context to it.
What have they got into their club by letting some of those 1st rounder drafted youngsters go ?
I mean just how did they acquire players like Heath Shaw, Ryan Griffen, Brett Deledio, Jacob Hopper and Josh Kelly just to name a few players of likely destination grand final day 2017 and then have a bundle of future round picks for that 2017 draft straight after it to dominate more early round selections? You might want to think about these type of things when making claims of what 1st round selections of past have been moved on.

I think they have done very well because as you rightly point out the salary cap will keep them honest and aware of that, they had to consciously let some talented youngsters go. There was no way around that.

Draftees have some standard contract for first 2 years and if deemed talented usually have quite a rise in contract amount for next period. I think that had a lot to do with all of their 2014 draftees traded on this recent period. I simply think they realised they would run out of salary cap room very quickly and making use of trade period to gain more picks for future to keep the regeneration of talent ticking over into their list for quite a period into the future.

I think off top of my head when they have traded guys like Dom Tyson, Adam Treloar, Taylor Adams, Tom Boyd, Lachie Plowman, O'Rourke, Sumner, Jaksch and Hoskin-Elliott they have got back players and picks to continue their arsenal of talent for years to come. Only really McCarthy they lost in a manner that was losing something for not much.
All these players are still in the AFL system so it is not like GWS first round picks that left the club has not allowed talent to still come in. That is super important for people to get how a club manages their list resources over time. GWS been doing it very well from start to keep the edge in talent they were gifted to milk it for all it's worth in terms of how much they could keep when salary cap alignment kicked in. They got dealt a great hand in a fixed deck and played it to it's optimum. Good luck to them. SOS and other list management from start up made sure they left it in great condition. However this Academy Zone situation needs reeling in big time to what it should be.

 

[Wee Jessies]

Most of their first rounders who have been traded away were no chance of getting a game and GWS have been happy to trade them.

The claim was that they have had a stream of first round picks which is correct but my point was that a number have left and not all of them spuds.