The Reverse Coleman

[TassieSaint]

I thought this was a pretty interesting article. We already knew Firrito leaked goals and it's no surprise to see Carrol there but some of the names in the top 10 surprised me.

Reverse Coleman
PLAYER CLUB GAMES GC AVE
Michael Firrito (N Melb) 12 38 2.67
Brian Lake (W Bull) 12 30 2.50
Josh Gibson (N Melb) 9 29 3.22
Nathan Brown (Coll) 12 29 2.42
Will Thursfi eld (Rich) 11 28 2.55
Darren Glass (W Coast) 12 28 2.33
Daniel Merrett (Bris) 12 27 2.25
Nathan Carroll (Melb) 7 26 3.71
Antoni Grover (Frem) 10 26 2.60
Toby Thurstans (Port) 11 26 2.36
Paddy Ryder (Ess) 12 26 2.17

I had Brian Lake in my mid year All Australian team, surprised to see him there (although there's a few there averaging worse). This might also shut up a few Collingwood supporters about Nathan Brown (still doing great for a second year player, but some had him AA ffs). Glad to see Hudghton isn't there either

Link to article http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,23881231-19742,00.html

 

[Scotland]

Unsurprisingly, a number of those players play one-out on quality key forwards, and more than half play in bottom 8 sides.

 

[tintin]

I thought this was a pretty interesting article. We already knew Firrito leaked goals and it's no surprise to see Carrol there but some of the names in the top 10 surprised me.

Reverse Coleman
PLAYER CLUB GAMES GC AVE
Michael Firrito (N Melb) 12 38 2.67
Brian Lake (W Bull) 12 30 2.50
Josh Gibson (N Melb) 9 29 3.22
Nathan Brown (Coll) 12 29 2.42
Will Thursfi eld (Rich) 11 28 2.55
Darren Glass (W Coast) 12 28 2.33
Daniel Merrett (Bris) 12 27 2.25
Nathan Carroll (Melb) 7 26 3.71
Antoni Grover (Frem) 10 26 2.60
Toby Thurstans (Port) 11 26 2.36
Paddy Ryder (Ess) 12 26 2.17

I had Brian Lake in my mid year All Australian team, surprised to see him there (although there's a few there averaging worse). This might also shut up a few Collingwood supporters about Nathan Brown (still doing great for a second year player, but some had him AA ffs). Glad to see Hudghton isn't there either

Link to article http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,23881231-19742,00.html

if u didnt know stats lie
most of those players play on the most dangerous forward each week so a 2.5 goal return isnt to bad. i think u need to urs ur nogen a bit before you post stats that you havent even taken the time to think about and put in into perspective

 

[favourites]

It should be done on average per game.

Nathan Carroll (Melb) 3.71
Josh Gibson (N Melb) 3.22
Michael Firrito (N Melb) 2.67
Antoni Grover (Frem) 2.60
Will Thursfi eld (Rich) 2.55
Brian Lake (W Bull) 2.50
Nathan Brown (Coll) 2.42
Toby Thurstans (Port) 2.36
Darren Glass (W Coast) 2.33
Daniel Merrett (Bris) 2.25
Paddy Ryder (Ess) 2.17

 

[Butane]

I agree with Tintin. Working backwards isn't really an exact science. It doesn't include the 30 meter daisy cutters that hit full-forwards on the chest - something that no backman can stop.

Can someone show me the break down of players that have kicked 30 goals against Lake.

 

[TassieSaint]

if u didnt know stats lie
most of those players play on the most dangerous forward each week so a 2.5 goal return isnt to bad. i think u need to urs ur nogen a bit before you post stats that you havent even taken the time to think about and put in into perspective

I thought about them plenty. I was just saying it made me rethink how good Brian Lake and Nathan Brown really have been this season, not saying this proves they've been terrible. I was just posting them up as I thought it was a pretty interesting article.

 

[scottydeewah]

or when you get moved to a forward when he has already kicked 5 and is now so hot he could weld steel...

 

[Australia]

Unsurprisingly, a number of those players play one-out on quality key forwards, and more than half play in bottom 8 sides.

Thats it, to hard to judge who a good full back is to be honest.
If your mids are getting killed you have zero chance.
Any backs in the top 8 should probably be doing better, that being said, 2 goals against per game when you are one on one against the Buddys, Riewoldts, Richos, Browns, Halls, Bradshaws, Rougheads everyweek isn't that bad.

 

[Chewy]

Coaches will judge defenders on what they offer their team, not by how many goals their immediate opponent kicks.

The best defenses aren't necessarily the six most talented individuals, but those who help each each other out.

Does Champion Data provides statistics for how many times a footballer will help his teammates outnumber their direct opponent?

 

[Exhale You]

Not a surprise to see Michael Firrito on his way to his second straight 'Reverse Coleman'.

He's a nice bloke, is as courageous and tough as they come, but he isn't a full backs arseh*le.
Move him back to the midfield and let him crack some skulls.

 

[tw0kbydesign]

Not a surprise to see Michael Firrito on his way to his second straight 'Reverse Coleman'.

He's a nice bloke, is as courageous and tough as they come, but he isn't a full backs arseh*le.
Move him back to the midfield and let him crack some skulls.

You are a very knowledgeable man Exhale You. Has destroyed his arrogance and certainty this year. Once that spot is taken I have a feeling he will unleash in the middle to become a brilliant HBF/Winger. Don't think he would be one to shirk the contest and not get his own ball either.

 

[TassieSaint]

Any backs in the top 8 should probably be doing better, that being said, 2 goals against per game when you are one on one against the Buddys, Riewoldts, Richos, Browns, Halls, Bradshaws, Rougheads everyweek isn't that bad.

True, keeping a star forward to 2-3 goals is in reality a good result. It makes you wonder how good Scarlett, Rutten, Bock, Bolton, Hudghton, Croad etc. must be going to concede 2 or less goals a game.

 

[McManus2Waterhouse]

its hilarious laidleys still playing firrito as a full back forgive me if im wrong roos fans but isnt he meant to be a midfielder?

 

[budge11]

Firrito and Gibbo have been killed in the past month... Brown and Bradshaw, Pavlich and now Franklin and Roughie

 

[serenityNow]

I dont know who worked out these averages.

But if Firrito has played 12 games and conceded 38 goals...his average conceded per game would be 3.16

 

[frantelle]

True, keeping a star forward to 2-3 goals is in reality a good result. It makes you wonder how good Scarlett, Rutten, Bock, Bolton, Hudghton, Croad etc. must be going to concede 2 or less goals a game.

the real stat that would have any meaning is number of goals kicked divided by number of times the ball has been kicked to his direct opponent

even then doesnt say much

backs these days arent judged solely on how many their opponent kicks

 

[budge11]

its hilarious laidleys still playing firrito as a full back forgive me if im wrong roos fans but isnt he meant to be a midfielder?

There's no other player on our list that would do any better in the position. Brown failed there, Watt failed, Petrie would do a good job but now McIntosh is out he has to fill in everywhere.

What do you suggest we do?

 

[sharpie]

I thought this was a pretty interesting article. We already knew Firrito leaked goals and it's no surprise to see Carrol there but some of the names in the top 10 surprised me.

Reverse Coleman
PLAYER CLUB GAMES GC AVE
Michael Firrito (N Melb) 12 38 2.67
Brian Lake (W Bull) 12 30 2.50
Josh Gibson (N Melb) 9 29 3.22
Nathan Brown (Coll) 12 29 2.42
Will Thursfi eld (Rich) 11 28 2.55
Darren Glass (W Coast) 12 28 2.33
Daniel Merrett (Bris) 12 27 2.25
Nathan Carroll (Melb) 7 26 3.71
Antoni Grover (Frem) 10 26 2.60
Toby Thurstans (Port) 11 26 2.36
Paddy Ryder (Ess) 12 26 2.17

I had Brian Lake in my mid year All Australian team, surprised to see him there (although there's a few there averaging worse). This might also shut up a few Collingwood supporters about Nathan Brown (still doing great for a second year player, but some had him AA ffs). Glad to see Hudghton isn't there either

Link to article http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,23881231-19742,00.html

is a complete nonsense in today's football.

Glass took Lloyd on for a bit of last saturday's game and didn't concede a goal - did that mean he outplayed him - absolutley not - lloyd just played up the ground.

you could also say that a player conceding 4 goals had a win - if he won all of the one-on-one contests but concedes a few by running off his man to close down someone running into goal and handballing over the top


10 years ago when you have stay at home fullforwards the reverse coleman would have mean something

 

[Belnakor]

Its nonsense.. i love it when a FF is played a bit more up the ground (such as Pav) and people use that to say "he was getting killed in attack so he had to chase kicks up the ground!" its just a nonsense.

 

[Barry Schneider]

The best defenses aren't necessarily the six most talented individuals, but those who help each each other out.

Does Champion Data provides statistics for how many times a footballer will help his teammates outnumber their direct opponent?

Good point.One off statistics never tell the story.
Some teams play a loose man in defence or drop the ruckman back in the hole,while other teams are more attacking and make the backmen compete one out.
Every single posession,contest and passage of play needs to be analysed to understand how good or bad a player is.Stats can never tell the whole story.No matter how detailed they are.

 

[pongo_3931]

Also keep in mind that outliers can hurt data like this.

Given that Fev has kicked about 15 goals against us in his last two games (give or take, there's no way Im crunching the real stats after todays study) removing these goals from Browns sheet drops his goal concessions up to 25%, likely a little less than that given match ups vary in game.

If I was going to run stats on this sort of stuff, I would want to see the game by game spread of scores (for conceded total points per game) on a graph before I chose what id do... At this stage of the year it's quite possible that a few players don't belong on this list...

That said I like the idea of a reverse Coleman or something to that effect. Defenders don't get enough recognition IMO.

 

[TassieSaint]

you could also say that a player conceding 4 goals had a win - if he won all of the one-on-one contests but concedes a few by running off his man to close down someone running into goal and handballing over the top

Would that count as a goal conceded? I would have thought it'd only count as a goal conceded if there was a contest between the back ad forward and the back lost out.

Anyway I know it's not the be all and end all of a backs performance (you could say the same about forwards and the real coleman) but surely it gives some indication of how they have been playing? Like any stat, not a fair representation of how a player played and you shouldn't read too much into it but still some indication of how they played (which I enjoy hearing about considering there's no readily available backmen specific stats). I reckon Dean Baily might have had goals conceded (amongst other things) in mind when he decided Carrol should play out the season at Sandringham.

 

[Phat Toni]

I thought this was a pretty interesting article. We already knew Firrito leaked goals and it's no surprise to see Carrol there but some of the names in the top 10 surprised me.

Reverse Coleman
PLAYER CLUB GAMES GC AVE
Michael Firrito (N Melb) 12 38 2.67
Brian Lake (W Bull) 12 30 2.50
Josh Gibson (N Melb) 9 29 3.22
Nathan Brown (Coll) 12 29 2.42
Will Thursfi eld (Rich) 11 28 2.55
Darren Glass (W Coast) 12 28 2.33
Daniel Merrett (Bris) 12 27 2.25
Nathan Carroll (Melb) 7 26 3.71
Antoni Grover (Frem) 10 26 2.60
Toby Thurstans (Port) 11 26 2.36
Paddy Ryder (Ess) 12 26 2.17

I had Brian Lake in my mid year All Australian team, surprised to see him there (although there's a few there averaging worse). This might also shut up a few Collingwood supporters about Nathan Brown (still doing great for a second year player, but some had him AA ffs). Glad to see Hudghton isn't there either

Link to article http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,23881231-19742,00.html

IMO goals against means very little, surely some fantasy footy nut can come up with some average number/ratio/% formula based on number of times the forward is the target inside 50, marks taken Vs shots on goal converted and factor in the defenders rebound 50 stats plus maybe spoils against the individual direct forward.

I dont know sounds complicated and its not a finished product by no means but it would tell you more than just goals against.

 

[Feerits Elf]

Reverse Kanga

 

[SwanBet]

sorry for a second year player having a few goals kicked of hime each week dont forget he is only 19 and he is playing on the likes of buddy and fev but he has beaten jhon brown and pavlich