2nds The SANFL Thread

[WeeBlake]

Once again another fluff comment that has no relevance to this discussion. Think it's more relevant if you are writing a book on how to be an inventor or entrepreneur rather than how to be a successful AFL club.

Why ignore other peoples "GOOD" ideas? You have said yourself that they are good ideas? If they are good ideas and an improvement on what we are currently doing - why not do it?

This is a very competitive industry where if you don't adapt and gain any competitive advantage you can - then you will be left behind. It doesn't matter who thought up the good idea - if it makes you better go with it.

We are currently in a situation where we are not properly managing our younger players who aren't in our best 22. We are at the mercy of SANFL coaches who are paid to win and won't hesitate to use a player to achieve this goal even if it is at the detriment to the player. We have had a player (McKernan) forced to change SANFL clubs this season. Would he have developed quicker if he wasn't stuck in a side that finished 9th in the SANFL last year and instead played alongside players like Lyons/Kerridge/Riley/Tambling/Johnston/McIntyre/Lynch? How destructive was it to a player with extremely low confidence to have to change SANFL clubs?

Was being sarcastic. It is obviously stupid to ignore good ideas just because you didn't come up with them yourself.

 

[brucetiki]

We are currently in a situation where we are not properly managing our younger players who aren't in our best 22. We are at the mercy of SANFL coaches who are paid to win and won't hesitate to use a player to achieve this goal even if it is at the detriment to the player. We have had a player (McKernan) forced to change SANFL clubs this season. Would he have developed quicker if he wasn't stuck in a side that finished 9th in the SANFL last year and instead played alongside players like Lyons/Kerridge/Riley/Tambling/Johnston/McIntyre/Lynch? How destructive was it to a player with extremely low confidence to have to change SANFL clubs?

You do realise Sturt, not South, finished 9th last year, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[AFC979810]

You do realise Sturt, not South, finished 9th last year, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Apologies... 2nd last.

Massive difference

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Once again another fluff comment that has no relevance to this discussion. Think it's more relevant if you are writing a book on how to be an inventor or entrepreneur rather than how to be a successful AFL club.

Why ignore other peoples "GOOD" ideas? You have said yourself that they are good ideas? If they are good ideas and an improvement on what we are currently doing - why not do it?

This is a very competitive industry where if you don't adapt and gain any competitive advantage you can - then you will be left behind. It doesn't matter who thought up the good idea - if it makes you better go with it.

We are currently in a situation where we are not properly managing our younger players who aren't in our best 22. We are at the mercy of SANFL coaches who are paid to win and won't hesitate to use a player to achieve this goal even if it is at the detriment to the player. We have had a player (McKernan) forced to change SANFL clubs this season. Would he have developed quicker if he wasn't stuck in a side that finished 9th in the SANFL last year and instead played alongside players like Lyons/Kerridge/Riley/Tambling/Johnston/McIntyre/Lynch? How destructive was it to a player with extremely low confidence to have to change SANFL clubs?

so many assumptions, so many ......

Ok here goes
1.I want development players to be trying to win .......look at Melbourne now after players realize th club wasn't serious about winning. we want player to develop a winning culture

2. At the end of the day it's up to the players to be flexible .....McKernan wanted to play more forward, OK he changed clubs ......destructive Mmm, he's playing AFL and going better than previous games.

Don't subscribe to any of your points .......you never mentioned the fact until the club & media the drum ....so your simply following the clubs line of thought ......and who has said it was a good idea ...where's the proof that is the best model?

 

[beartoo]

.....McKernan wanted to play more forward, OK he changed clubs ......destructive Mmm, he's playing AFL and going better than previous games.
quote]

Ironic that he switched clubs to play as a permanent forward, then gets the AFL call up to play as ruckman forward.

 

[Tobster]

Can we please rename this thread the "Crows/Power Reserves team argument" thread. I was hoping for some actual reference to how the crows players were going in the SANFL but the last 3 pages have nothing of the sort. Ahhhh memories.

 

[Mismatched]

We didn't switch McKernan because wanted him to play as a permant forward, we wanted him playing ~70% forward, ~30% Ruck, as he would at AFL level.

South wanted to play a pagans paddock, with their key forward (?Warren). McKernan would pretty much be rotating through the ruck and bench with limited time forward.

 

[AFC979810]

so many assumptions, so many ......

Ok here goes
1.I want development players to be trying to win .......look at Melbourne now after players realize th club wasn't serious about winning. we want player to develop a winning culture

Why couldn't our development players be trying to win? Why not have a 2nds team in the VFL? Even set up a reserves competition with the Lions/Suns/Dockers/Eagles/Swans/GWS/Port. I am a Bays supporter, but wouldn't care if the Crows took over ailing Sturt as our 2nd side. We need to have a well structured / well coached 2nd side where our youngsters can be developed the way we want them too.

The Melbourne example is woeful. Why would our 2nd side tank? There would be zero benefit. All of our players would be trying their best to impress and get a call up to the 1st team. What do you think drives players like Lyons/Kerridge et al? Is it SANFL success or play as well as possible so that they can go up and play with the Crows.

2. At the end of the day it's up to the players to be flexible .....McKernan wanted to play more forward, OK he changed clubs ......destructive Mmm, he's playing AFL and going better than previous games.

Not sure exactly what you are trying to say here? You want our players to be flexible and are happy with them playing out of position at SANFL level? If you are using McKernan as the poster child for quality development at an SANFL club I would suggest you try again. (Also have a look above at James_37 informative post).

Don't subscribe to any of your points .......you never mentioned the fact until the club & media the drum ....so your simply following the clubs line of thought ......and who has said it was a good idea ...where's the proof that is the best model?

To be honest, I am not too fussed if you 'subscribe' to my points. The reasons for wanting a reserves side for the Crows are pretty much common sense. Crows youngsters train with Adelaide Crows players all week and then go and play a match with 20 other blokes they have no chemistry. As to who says its a good idea -

Apart from the last 6 premiership clubs having reserves sides - Jarryd Lyons seems to think it would have helped his development:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...ne-reserves-side/story-e6frf3e3-1226342828197

To your last point - what proof are you after? There are plenty of examples of this system working very well (Geelong/Hawthorn/Collingwood to name a few). There are many intelligent people including players, coaches, administrators calling for a Crows Reserve team.

Yet the only counter argument you can offer is that you want our younger players to be trying to win and if we have a reserves side we will end up developing players like Melbourne.

 

[brucetiki]

You do realise Hawthorn doesn't have a reserves side, they have an alignment with Box Hill...

 

[AFC979810]

You do realise Hawthorn doesn't have a reserves side, they have an alignment with Box Hill...

I would be equally happy with a similar alignment with an SANFL club like Sturt.

That's twice on this thread you have made two small corrections that have absolutely nothing to do with the general discussion - nor do they make the argument for us not to have a reserves side. How about instead of being a pedantic troll - you actually talk about the discussion?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Yet the only counter argument you can offer is that you want our younger players to be trying to win and if we have a reserves side we will end up developing players like Melbourne.

Sorry i may not be explaining it properly, or you may not have experienced enough of these "fashion" trends that are ALWAYS well argued by clubs ....and it doesn't simply mean in elation to this issue.

1. Never said Melbourne players tanked .....but players out of position, matchups wrong still loses mtaches even though players are still trying ......i pointed out the fact Collingwood played 3 ruckmen last year on a wet & windy day ...not to lose ??? but give players gametime .....if itss not tanking then it certainly winning the game was not paramount to Collingwood

2. Lyons saying it'll help his development ......again i say NO PLAYERS SAID ANYTHING PRIOR until the club put in the media its position .......therefore which players are going to come out against the club line and say the current system is good .....think about that one ??

3. You say last 6 premierships won by clubs with reserves sides ...coincidence or the fact on the competition equalization program Victorian clubs were due to spike whilst interstate sides are coming back now

Are you saying Sydney won their flag because they have a team in the NSW league how many juniors actually get a run at league level with Sydney

West Coast started as flag favorite this year .....no team in WAFL
Similar Freo is in flag contention
Adelaide one kick away from GF .......sorry don't subscribe to the argument that flags = reserves side program success

 

[Cap]

West Coast started as flag favorite this year .....no team in WAFL
Similar Freo is in flag contention
Adelaide one kick away from GF .......sorry don't subscribe to the argument that flags = reserves side program success

So Sydney still have a reserves side yes?

you have also named 2 clubs desperate for a 2nds team - why is that? if they feel they are so successful without one?

 

[craig crowing]

Sorry i may not be explaining it properly, or you may not have experienced enough of these "fashion" trends that are ALWAYS well argued by clubs ....and it doesn't simply mean in elation to this issue.

1. Never said Melbourne players tanked .....but players out of position, matchups wrong still loses mtaches even though players are still trying ......i pointed out the fact Collingwood played 3 ruckmen last year on a wet & windy day ...not to lose ??? but give players gametime .....if itss not tanking then it certainly winning the game was not paramount to Collingwood

2. Lyons saying it'll help his development ......again i say NO PLAYERS SAID ANYTHING PRIOR until the club put in the media its position .......therefore which players are going to come out against the club line and say the current system is good .....think about that one ??

3. You say last 6 premierships won by clubs with reserves sides ...coincidence or the fact on the competition equalization program Victorian clubs were due to spike whilst interstate sides are coming back now

Are you saying Sydney won their flag because they have a team in the NSW league how many juniors actually get a run at league level with Sydney

West Coast started as flag favorite this year .....no team in WAFL
Similar Freo is in flag contention
Adelaide one kick away from GF .......sorry don't subscribe to the argument that flags = reserves side program success

Great post WW and agree you don't need AFL teams to have reserves sides and nothing to do with winning premierships it is just about AFL clubs gaining more control and power .
But why do we want to wreck a great competition here, just to achieve that .
We want and need our kids etc to play in a strong competitive league in teams and have to earn their games as they will have to if they want to make AFL .
Maybe that is why so many of our late picks do so well by having to earn their spots and desperate for a win for SANFL team rather than being groomed .
Maybe a alignment with Sturt may save them and be a assistance with us rather than full on reserve team .
Apparently Geelong winning VFL was a disaster and non event for a premiership team which is not what serious competition is about.
Regarding McKernan move to Bays it had nothing to do with him making team as had only played 2 games for them and were ordinary to average in those games. It was about need ,once Tex was gone for season and Sams poor form .
A old fashioned coach and very average attitude was main reason for move and surprised did not occur and end of last season, which you have seen they can do easily.
Classic example is a kid that played for SANFL club for years and picked for long term has to leave his club and play against them until he makes AFL, if he does.
Just because our club wants it doesnt make it right or good reason to wreck a good competition so important to so many.

 

[beartoo]

We didn't switch McKernan because wanted him to play as a permant forward, we wanted him playing ~70% forward, ~30% Ruck, as he would at AFL level.

South wanted to play a pagans paddock, with their key forward (?Warren). McKernan would pretty much be rotating through the ruck and bench with limited time forward.

McKernan himself said that he wanted a change so that he could play as a permanent forward. I didn't see a response from the club to that. I didn't see any of the games he played for Glenelg. Perhaps a Tiger fan on here might comment on whether or not he played part-time ruck in those games.

 

[Vader]

so many assumptions, so many ......

Ok here goes
1.I want development players to be trying to win .......look at Melbourne now after players realize th club wasn't serious about winning. we want player to develop a winning culture

2. At the end of the day it's up to the players to be flexible .....McKernan wanted to play more forward, OK he changed clubs ......destructive Mmm, he's playing AFL and going better than previous games.

Don't subscribe to any of your points .......you never mentioned the fact until the club & media the drum ....so your simply following the clubs line of thought ......and who has said it was a good idea ...where's the proof that is the best model?

You honestly think that McKernan playing AFL has anything at all to do with changing clubs? I would argue that there is one and only one reason why he's playing AFL right now and not still stuck in the SANFL - injuries to both Walker and LJ, which left him as the last man standing.

As for him "going better than previous games".. that is a highly contentious and debatable claim as well. Paladin would argue that he's playing well. I'd argue that he's still serving up the same rubbish he always has. The truth is likely somewhere in between.

 

[Vader]

So Sydney still have a reserves side yes?

you have also named 2 clubs desperate for a 2nds team - why is that? if they feel they are so successful without one?

They play in the ACTAFL (and NEAFL). They are also limited as to the number of AFL listed players that they can select each week. This rule was introduced after their first few seasons, where they won every game by an average of 80+pts.

 

[Elite Crow]

You honestly think that McKernan playing AFL has anything at all to do with changing clubs? I would argue that there is one and only one reason why he's playing AFL right now and not still stuck in the SANFL - injuries to both Walker and LJ, which left him as the last man standing.

As for him "going better than previous games".. that is a highly contentious and debatable claim as well. Paladin would argue that he's playing well. I'd argue that he's still serving up the same rubbish he always has. The truth is likely somewhere in between.

I don't necessarily agree that the move to Glenelg is the reason he is playing AFL, he did kick 5 for Glenelg the week before he was picked ahead of LJ who wasn't injured yet. If hadnt have kicked 5 maybe they would have gone for LJ.

 

[Marty64]

I don't necessarily agree that the move to Glenelg is the reason he is playing AFL, he did kick 5 for Glenelg the week before he was picked ahead of LJ who wasn't injured yet. If hadnt have kicked 5 maybe they would have gone for LJ.

Was that game against Sturt?

 

[brucetiki]

I would be equally happy with a similar alignment with an SANFL club like Sturt.

That's twice on this thread you have made two small corrections that have absolutely nothing to do with the general discussion - nor do they make the argument for us not to have a reserves side. How about instead of being a pedantic troll - you actually talk about the discussion?

They have everything to do with the discussion - you're making points using examples that are factually incorrect, and, in effect, trying to be deceitful. Maybe if you did some research and got your facts correct, then you wouldn't be getting pulled up on your incorrect information.

As for talking about the discussion, maybe have a read of the thread, and you will see that I have made my point about the Crows having a reserves side.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

So Sydney still have a reserves side yes?

you have also named 2 clubs desperate for a 2nds team - why is that? if they feel they are so successful without one?

Not sure about Sydney reserves ......but WA Teams also following the leader even though they are successful with the same system as our current

Mark my words this will widen the gap further between AFL and next tier down .......next stage will be to see clubs winge about the gap they've created

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You honestly think that McKernan playing AFL has anything at all to do with changing clubs? I would argue that there is one and only one reason why he's playing AFL right now and not still stuck in the SANFL - injuries to both Walker and LJ, which left him as the last man standing.

As for him "going better than previous games".. that is a highly contentious and debatable claim as well. Paladin would argue that he's playing well. I'd argue that he's still serving up the same rubbish he always has. The truth is likely somewhere in between.

No i don't .....that was the point i was trying to make

 

[chazwazza]

Why couldn't our development players be trying to win? Why not have a 2nds team in the VFL? Even set up a reserves competition with the Lions/Suns/Dockers/Eagles/Swans/GWS/Port. I am a Bays supporter, but wouldn't care if the Crows took over ailing Sturt as our 2nd side. We need to have a well structured / well coached 2nd side where our youngsters can be developed the way we want them too.

Good. Ring the Glenelg Football Club and tell them that you want Adelaide to take over and be rebranded The Glenelg Crows. Would you be happy with that?
If you're so keen for AFL reserves put up your own club mate, not mine.

 

[AFC979810]

They have everything to do with the discussion - you're making points using examples that are factually incorrect, and, in effect, trying to be deceitful. Maybe if you did some research and got your facts correct, then you wouldn't be getting pulled up on your incorrect information.

As for talking about the discussion, maybe have a read of the thread, and you will see that I have made my point about the Crows having a reserves side.

You Muppet.

So I was trying to be deceitful by saying McKernan was stuck playing for a South unit who came last in the SANFL when in fact they came 2nd last (winning one more game than Sturt). Simple mistake that doesn't change my argument at all.

Similar to the pedantic correction over the fact that Hawthorn doesn't have a reserves side it has an affiliated club in the VFL (who by coincidence has very similar guernseys, 5 of the 9 directors are Hawthorn Directors and all of the Hawthorn players who aren't best 22 play for them)...

Both of these 'corrections' didn't change my point at all. Look forward to seeing you start to correct spelling errors.

 

[AFC979810]

Good. Ring the Glenelg Football Club and tell them that you want Adelaide to take over and be rebranded The Glenelg Crows. Would you be happy with that?
If you're so keen for AFL reserves put up your own club mate, not mine.

My club isn't in serious financial trouble and about to fold.

If my club was in the same position as yours I would be more than happy for them to become the Glenelg Crows.

Lets be real here. Its 2013 not 1983. The SANFL has become irrelevant. Clubs are only surviving due to Pokies - crowds are down, memberships are down and the talent is nowhere near where it was 20 years ago.

If an SANFL club has to fold/merge/be taken over for the Crows to have a reserves side then I am all for it (even if its my own).

 

[chazwazza]

My club isn't in serious financial trouble and about to fold.

If my club was in the same position as yours I would be more than happy for them to become the Glenelg Crows.

Lets be real here. Its 2013 not 1983. The SANFL has become irrelevant. Clubs are only surviving due to Pokies - crowds are down, memberships are down and the talent is nowhere near where it was 20 years ago.

If an SANFL club has to fold/merge/be taken over for the Crows to have a reserves side then I am all for it (even if its my own).

If it's that important, ring your club and tell them that you think they should strongly consider it. By your thinking, the SANFL is stuffed and has no real future as a stand alone comp so you may as well put Glenelg up! Don't see why money should be the issue here, infact, it'd be better for Adelaide to be alligned with a club that is financially strong, has good facilities and has a pretty good relationship with its local council and surrounding neighbourhood.
So Glenelg Crows it is.