2nds The SANFL Thread

[TARANTULA]

Whats better -

Finishing 12th in 2013 playing guys like Porps, Johncock, Tambling, Callinan, Reilly, Jaensch and Martin.

or

Finishing 12th in 2013 playing guys like Lyons, Laird, Crouch, Riley, Kerridge, Grigg and Johnston.



I know which one I prefer.

 

[Vader]

fair dinkum, Blokes on here need to firmly pull their head in. I don't know what more they expect an 18 year old to do,

Delisting Johnstone. PLEASE!!!!
Johncock Callinan Tambling Porplyzia and Joyce are all ahead of him to go.
With others on the trading block. Jaensch Martin Riley Otten
When we get an extra small or two in the offseason Callinan and Porp will "Retire".
They are only "Best 22" through lack of no one else. Johnstone is a potential Scott Stevens swingman type for us I feel. We wont give on him just yeat.

Right now, there's no way on earth that Callinan is ahead of LJ on the chopping list, nor is Porplyzia (though he may end up elsewhere as a FA). Only Johncock, Tambling and Joyce would be ahead of him.

Johnston is not a "potential" anything. After 4 1/2 years on the lists of 2 AFL clubs and he can't even make the emergency list when our #1 forward is ruled out for the season by a serious knee injury. The only "potential" left for him is as a "potential delisting".

 

[Vader]

You don't know this is right. Yes McKernan got the nod at selection the week after Walker went down, but you don't know how close that call was. Johnston got injured the very next week so we will never know.

There was a 1-week gap between their injuries. LJ didn't even make the emergency list that week, having previously failed to make the emergency list at any stage this year. In 2012 he played 1 AFL game and was named on the emergency list for 1 other. For the other 20 rounds he rotted in the SANFL, without even making the emergency list. Nothing changed from 2012 to 2013 as far as LJ's status is concerned.

If he'd been close to selection, then I might agree with you - but the fact that he failed to make emergency list even once this year is a pretty strong indicator that the selectors & coaches just flat out don't rate the kid.

I'm not saying Johnston will or won't be delisted (my gut says we retain him for now, but he's pretty close to the edge), but it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that McKernan was well in front of him in the pecking order at the time Walker went down. All we know is that he was in front that particular week. In fact, I'd suggest if Walker went down a week earlier (before McKernan kicked 5 against Sturt in the SANFL), Johnston would have been his replacement as McKernan had done nothing at SANFL level prior to that week.

Come on.. McKernan played 6 games last year and was almost always named on the emergency list when he wasn't selected in the starting 22. He continued in the same vein this year as well, being named on the extended bench pretty much every week, until Walker's injury made him a structural necessity.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the AFC placed any weight on LJ's bag of 7 goals against Sturt. The Adelaide Board collectively wet themselves with joy, but the AFC barely even mentioned it. It's worth noting that Stiffy & McKernan both achieved virtually the same feat when faced with the same opponent. It says more about Sturt's lack of quality defenders than it does about LJ or any other forward vying for an AFL position.

The difference is like chalk & cheese. McKernan was always there or thereabouts. LJ was never in the running, other than in the minds of the BF sheep who failed to pay any attention to the selections of the previous 18 months.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Disagree Vader. If LJ did not have his unfortunate injury he would have played. Who knows how he would have gone?

 

[PykeDream]

Vader the emergency list means very little in Johnston's case.

No sense in putting an exclusive KPF on the emergency list given the chances of an omission playing that position is <10%. More sense in naming the mandatory two midfielders and someone who can moonlight as a utility (eg. McKernan & Johncock), and copping the fine if you do need to bring in a tall forward.

McKernan came in ahead of Johnston when Walker went down because Jenkins and Jacobs were struggling majorly in the ruck - apart from that I don't think the club rate Smack any more than you do.

 

[hey shorty]

My gut feel is that he will be on the list one more year, but wouldnt be too concerned if he wasnt. I do however hope he gets a chance to stake his claim when he returns from injury. The rest of this year should be spent seeing whether guys of the right age outside the 22 have what it takes to gain a spot for next year. Currently only Johncock and Joyce are absolute certainties whilst others are purely speculative

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Look, we have 10 games to go this year and if we have a bad end to the season, we will be making more than the 3 changes.

It will be more than Johncock, Joyce and Tambling and I very much doubt we will be delisting a Key Postion forward/defender with still some level of uncertainly around Tex and his knee.

A 31 year old small forward will be very high on the list to go. With all due respect to him, it's much easier to cover Callinan and still be a competitive unit than it is to cover a Key Postion Forward or defender.

 

[Vader]

Disagree Vader. If LJ did not have his unfortunate injury he would have played. Who knows how he would have gone?

I'd say that the odds on him getting a game ahead of Mckernan, Lynch & JJ were remote in the extreme. The selectors showed no interest in him before Tex's injury and no interest in him the week after Tex's injury (before LJ was injured himself).

 

[Vader]

McKernan came in ahead of Johnston when Walker went down because Jenkins and Jacobs were struggling majorly in the ruck - apart from that I don't think the club rate Smack any more than you do.

I don't think they rate Smack particularly highly.. but they rate him a damn sight higher than LJ.

 

[Vader]

Look, we have 10 games to go this year and if we have a bad end to the season, we will be making more than the 3 changes.

I certainly hope so.. but I think that decision will be based upon the number of draft picks they can shake loose during trade week. Unfortunately, I don't see any of these draft picks being inside the top-30.

It will be more than Johncock, Joyce and Tambling and I very much doubt we will be delisting a Key Postion forward/defender with still some level of uncertainly around Tex and his knee.

As I said before.. the fact that he's a KPP forward is irrelevant. They simply don't rate him as an AFL player and that's really all there is to it. Why keep him on the list if they're never going to select him? It defies logic.

A 31 year old small forward will be very high on the list to go. With all due respect to him, it's much easier to cover Callinan and still be a competitive unit than it is to cover a Key Postion Forward or defender.

Right now, Callinan is safe as houses. The AFC don't subscribe to the "player X is old, therefore he must be chopped" idiocy that pervades BigFooty. If a player is performing, then he'll get another contract, whether he's 21 or 31. Right now, Callinan is in our best 22 and was one of our better players in the Richmond debacle. Unless he has a major loss of form, he will be almost certain to get a new contract for 2014.

As for covering him.. no other player on our list has anything approaching Callinan's skill set. He's actually harder to replace than LJ, who isn't in the team and isn't in the selectors deliberations when selecting the team each week.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

As I said before.. the fact that he's a KPP forward is irrelevant. They simply don't rate him as an AFL player and that's really all there is to it. Why keep him on the list if they're never going to select him? It defies logic.

Basically, what you are saying is - we will delist Johnson and draft Sam Siggins and cross our fingers we don't have 2 or 3 key forwards get injured. Or we will be up that creek for the first 5 or 6 weeks until Tex is ready to play.

Because if you are going to delist Johnson, Luke Thompson won't be too far behind as he's on equal footing.

Right now, Callinan is safe as houses. The AFC don't subscribe to the "player X is old, therefore he must be chopped" idiocy that pervades BigFooty. If a player is performing, then he'll get another contract, whether he's 21 or 31. Right now, Callinan is in our best 22 and was one of our better players in the Richmond debacle. Unless he has a major loss of form, he will be almost certain to get a new contract for 2014.

And this is why we will cruise smoothly in year 16 without a premiership or even a Grand Final as we have zero forward planning with development.

As for covering him.. no other player on our list has anything approaching Callinan's skill set. He's actually harder to replace than LJ, who isn't in the team and isn't in the selectors deliberations when selecting the team each week.

Let me paint this picture for you.

No crumbs, no Callinan. No Key Forward and we don't stand a chance at even bring the ball to ground. Tom Lynch is not a key forwards bumhole, he is a flanker who runs all day. He will get swamped at CHF, Jenkins is not strong enough and Tex is our only real key forward.

With Tex bring the ball to ground, Vince, Sloane, Wright, Kerridge, Lyons, and hopefully with development over the summer Atkins can fill that role in the team.

If we don't have a key forward who can bring the ball to ground, we have no need for someone like Ian Callinan.We could have 15 Ian Callinans and it won't make a difference without a key forward because the opportunities won't occur to that type of player.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

There was a 1-week gap between their injuries. LJ didn't even make the emergency list that week, having previously failed to make the emergency list at any stage this year.

Tex was injured in round 5. Are you sure Johnston wasn't an emergency for round 6? I can't find confirmation anywhere online, but I found a text I sent on the Thursday before round 6 saying Johnston was named as an out for the Roosters. That suggests that he was an emergency, before ultimately not making the 22, dropping back to North Adelaide and breaking his leg that weekend.

In 2012 he played 1 AFL game and was named on the emergency list for 1 other. For the other 20 rounds he rotted in the SANFL, without even making the emergency list. Nothing changed from 2012 to 2013 as far as LJ's status is concerned.

Care to provide a link for the emergency lists for last year's games? Johnston's stocks rose as last year went on, and particularly after he was played as a permanent forward in the second half of the year at SANFL level. He was one of the dominant players of the finals series.

If he'd been close to selection, then I might agree with you - but the fact that he failed to make emergency list even once this year is a pretty strong indicator that the selectors & coaches just flat out don't rate the kid.

And this is my point exactly. You have no idea how close he was to selection ahead of McKernan in round 6. Whether he was an emergency or not (and I maintain it's more likely he was), it was a race in 2 for Walker's spot. The selection committee might have tossed a coin for all we know.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the AFC placed any weight on LJ's bag of 7 goals against Sturt. The Adelaide Board collectively wet themselves with joy, but the AFC barely even mentioned it. It's worth noting that Stiffy & McKernan both achieved virtually the same feat when faced with the same opponent. It says more about Sturt's lack of quality defenders than it does about LJ or any other forward vying for an AFL position.

I never mentioned LJ kicking 7 against Sturt. You brought that up. In fact, the argument could be made that it was Smack's 5 against Sturt that got him the gig in round 6. He'd only kicked 2 goals in his 3 SANFL games this season prior to that one. I would bet good money that if Walker didn't come up from the corkie he suffered against the Bulldogs the week before, LJ would have been out on the MCG playing Carlton ahead of McKernan, who had done less than nothing in the SANFL prior to Walker's injury.

The difference is like chalk & cheese. McKernan was always there or thereabouts. LJ was never in the running, other than in the minds of the BF sheep who failed to pay any attention to the selections of the previous 18 months.

Despite my defence of LJ in this thread, I do think McKernan is the superior player and I've said a lot of times on here that I don't think LJ has the weapons to be an AFL footballer. Ironically, I have noticed that you parrot a lot of things I say about LJ (not tall enough, not quick enough, not clever enough at ground level) and I suspect you have based your opinion of him on my observations as you can't have watched him at any length.

I just think your reasons for planting LJ in the delist category are crap and suspect you're inventing statistics about appearances on the emergency list.

 

[Team DJ]

Right now, there's no way on earth that Callinan is ahead of LJ on the chopping list, nor is Porplyzia (though he may end up elsewhere as a FA). Only Johncock, Tambling and Joyce would be ahead of him.

Johnston is not a "potential" anything. After 4 1/2 years on the lists of 2 AFL clubs and he can't even make the emergency list when our #1 forward is ruled out for the season by a serious knee injury. The only "potential" left for him is as a "potential delisting".

He wasnt an emergency because we picked Jenkins to replace Walker and then McKernan came in for Jenkins in reality.

Vader stating your opinion as fact again. Hmmmmm thought you wouldve learnt by now

The ONLY reason Callinan and Porplyzia may even be seen on level pegging as him at the moment is the lack of other options. Once we draft/free agent other. Callinan and Porp will be gone.


Let me put it this way for you.
Callinan and Porp are Ed Cowan, Opening the batting for Australia because there is literally no one else.

Johnstone is Jackson Bird. Doing everything he needs to at Shield level but just on the outer because of the strength in our fast bowling attack.

Callinan and Porp will be gone as soon as anyone almost good comes along. Johnstone will be around a while because he can play the game.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

The AFC don't subscribe to the "player X is old, therefore he must be chopped" idiocy that pervades BigFooty.

Not to mention that idiot who came over from Geelong to coach us. And no, I'm not talking about Gary Ayres. Or Sando, for that matter.

 

[Team DJ]

I don't think they rate Smack particularly highly.. but they rate him a damn sight higher than LJ.

You realise that Johnstone and McKernan can not be compared as to who is selected and why?

You may as well compare Brad Crouch with Josh Jenkins.

The way our team structures up with one or the other is completely different.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

You realise that Johnstone and McKernan can not be compared as to who is selected and why?

You may as well compare Brad Crouch with Josh Jenkins.

The way our team structures up with one or the other is completely different.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with this. Johnston was a more natural like for like replacement for Walker than McKernan was. Obviously, the selection panel preferred McKernan initially, and then had the decision taken out of their hands the following week.

It's also possible that they decided to change the structure in order to make Jenkins a stay at home forward rather than a 2nd ruck/forward. Even if that's right, they probably wouldn't have done so if they really wanted to bring Johnston in.

I don't think it can be disputed that McKernan was and is ahead of Johnston in the pecking order. My beef with Vader is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the decision was as clear cut as he was making it out to be.

 

[Team DJ]

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with this. Johnston was a more natural like for like replacement for Walker than McKernan was. Obviously, the selection panel preferred McKernan initially, and then had the decision taken out of their hands the following week.

It's also possible that they decided to change the structure in order to make Jenkins a stay at home forward rather than a 2nd ruck/forward. Even if that's right, they probably wouldn't have done so if they really wanted to bring Johnston in.

I don't think it can be disputed that McKernan was and is ahead of Johnston in the pecking order. My beef with Vader is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the decision was as clear cut as he was making it out to be.

Like i said in the previous post. Jenkins was Walkers replacment. Smack was Jenkins

 

[Vader]

Basically, what you are saying is - we will delist Johnson and draft Sam Siggins and cross our fingers we don't have 2 or 3 key forwards get injured. Or we will be up that creek for the first 5 or 6 weeks until Tex is ready to play.

Because if you are going to delist Johnson, Luke Thompson won't be too far behind as he's on equal footing.

I wouldn't bet on either/both (Johnson & Thompson) being on our list in 2014. Together with Riley they would be players 4-6 on the chopping block, in no particular order.

And this is why we will cruise smoothly in year 16 without a premiership or even a Grand Final as we have zero forward planning with development.

Utter, utter garbage. Retaining players who offer nothing at the AFL standard, simply because they're "young", is the path that leads directly to mediocrity.

Next year we will have Reilly, Rutten & Callinan aged 30+. The former pair will be aged 30. Retaining a 3rd player aged 30+ will not make one iota of difference to prolonging our premiership drought. Delisting a player, while he is still playing well and fitting comfortably inside our best 22, purely on the basis of age, is a ludicrous policy - BigFooty idiocy at it's finest.

No list manager in his right mind would delist a performing player ahead of a dud. First to go are the retirements. Next to go are those who are simply not up to AFL standard. Then, and only then, would they consider list management based on age. On that basis, Callinan is not in the first 8 players on the chopping block. I doubt we'll be culling 8 players this year, so Callinan wins a new contract.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Get ready Fonzyyyyyyy


Yiu will be saying you are wro...wro...wro...

 

[Bicks]

Right now, Callinan is safe as houses. The AFC don't subscribe to the "player X is old, therefore he must be chopped" idiocy that pervades BigFooty. If a player is performing, then he'll get another contract, whether he's 21 or 31. Right now, Callinan is in our best 22 and was one of our better players in the Richmond debacle. Unless he has a major loss of form, he will be almost certain to get a new contract for 2014.

Not so in Jason Torney's case that's for sure, given his marching orders at 30 after a particularly good game in the 2007 Elimination Final against the Hawks when he had 24 disposals, 10 marks, 5 inside 50's and kicked 1 goal 1 point. Played all 23 games so must have been best 22???

 

[cmndstab]

At least Giles is only at his 2nd club.. LJ would be looking to be selected by a 3rd. I just don't see any clubs being interested.

That's only because Port held onto him for four years before moving him on. Giles went to GWS two years ago, and was recruited two years before Johnston. Presumably Giles was around the same age that Johnston is now.

 

[Vader]

Tex was injured in round 5. Are you sure Johnston wasn't an emergency for round 6? I can't find confirmation anywhere online, but I found a text I sent on the Thursday before round 6 saying Johnston was named as an out for the Roosters. That suggests that he was an emergency, before ultimately not making the 22, dropping back to North Adelaide and breaking his leg that weekend.

It took a bit of searching, but here's the team list for R6. LJ did actually make the emergency list:
ADELAIDE
B: Rutten Talia Otten
HB: Brown Reilly Mackay
C: Kerridge S Thompson Smith
HF: Douglas McKernan Lyons
F: Porplyzia Lynch Jenkins
R: Jacobs Dangerfield Sloane
I/C: Jaensch Wright Vince Henderson
EMG: Tambling Johnston Petrenko
IN: Porplyzia McKernan Lyons
OUT: Petrenko Walker (knee) Laird (thigh)

With McKernan, Lynch, JJ and Jacobs already selected he was pretty much the last man standing amongst our SANFL based talls - and was selected on that basis alone (ie the Hail Mary in case another one of our talls went down).

Care to provide a link for the emergency lists for last year's games? Johnston's stocks rose as last year went on, and particularly after he was played as a permanent forward in the second half of the year at SANFL level. He was one of the dominant players of the finals series.

I'm using the AFL Record Season Guide 2013 as my source. It contains a table for each club, listing how every player went in every round in 2012. For those who played AFL, it lists the number of goals the player scored. For those on the Emergency List, it notes "Em". Where a player was MIA due to injury, this is noted. For the rest, it says "SANFL".

LJ is listed as "SANFL" for R1-16, 18-19 and 22-23. He was on the Emergency List in R17 & 21 (yes, twice - I was incorrect in stating he was only emergency listed once). He played just 1 AFL game, in R20, failing to score a goal.

And this is my point exactly. You have no idea how close he was to selection ahead of McKernan in round 6. Whether he was an emergency or not (and I maintain it's more likely he was), it was a race in 2 for Walker's spot. The selection committee might have tossed a coin for all we know.

Come on.. McKernan has played 29 AFL games, including 6 last year. He's been named on the emergency list on numerous occasions, indicating that he was close to making the team even when not named in the best 22. LJ has been about as far from selection as it's possible to be, without being delisted or placed on the injury list.

There is not a shred of evidence, other than BF wishful thinking, to suggest that LJ was ever seriously considered by the selection committee.

I never mentioned LJ kicking 7 against Sturt. You brought that up. In fact, the argument could be made that it was Smack's 5 against Sturt that got him the gig in round 6. He'd only kicked 2 goals in his 3 SANFL games this season prior to that one. I would bet good money that if Walker didn't come up from the corkie he suffered against the Bulldogs the week before, LJ would have been out on the MCG playing Carlton ahead of McKernan, who had done less than nothing in the SANFL prior to Walker's injury.

Neither Smack nor LJ had any SANFL form to speak of, other than bags against Sturt. I wouldn't bet on LJ having been selected at any stage this year - past or future.

I just think your reasons for planting LJ in the delist category are crap and suspect you're inventing statistics about appearances on the emergency list.

I haven't invented stats about anything - though I was wrong with a couple that I quoted. He was on the emergency list twice last year, not once - and he was on the emergency list in R6 (behind Lynch, JJ and McKernan, who all made the 22).

 

[Vader]

Johnstone is Jackson Bird. Doing everything he needs to at Shield level but just on the outer because of the strength in our fast bowling attack.

Nah.. he's more like Peter George - competent, but miles away from Test selection.

 

[Vader]

Not to mention that idiot who came over from Geelong to coach us. And no, I'm not talking about Gary Ayres. Or Sando, for that matter.

Surely you're not suggesting that he sacked them purely on the basis of age? Good grief.

 

[Vader]

Not so in Jason Torney's case that's for sure, given his marching orders at 30 after a particularly good game in the 2007 Elimination Final against the Hawks when he had 24 disposals, 10 marks, 5 inside 50's and kicked 1 goal 1 point. Played all 23 games so must have been best 22???

Different case.. Back then we had a veritable Dad's Army of players approaching their 30th birthdays, so the club instituted a policy whereby only the best players were retained after their 30th birthday. Even then we ended up with 6 players aged 30+ on our list at one point.

As of today, we have 2 players aged 30+, Johncock & Callinan. Reilly & Rutten will join them, but Johncock will depart at the end of the year.

Completely different situation.