Current Trial The Teachers Pet Podcast & Chris Dawson's Murder Trial * New Carnal Knowledge Trial

[craffles]

It still goes on though Craffles, if it's not so easy to disappear someone. We think we've come a long way since then and I thought we had too but there's still a long way to go, we can't take it for granted.

100% agree with what you're saying in terms of now and moving forward. Sometimes we do just need to reflect and not judge historical events on today's standards (which as you've rightfully pointed out are still not good enough)

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Essentially men and women are hard wired differently through their genetics and goes back ultimately to creation when men were hunters and providers (nature). We don't anymore in a civilized society but innate aspects of hard wiring remain. The soft wiring through societal values and beliefs and their affect on us all has an equal effect as to 50% (nurture). But there are soft wiring biases within family units too where parental value systems are copied and replicated giving rise to repetition of negative stereotypes at times. So there are nuanced changes toward complete gender equality which is undeniably the ideal in an advanced society, but to some extent it fights the wiring (hard and soft) for small parts of the whole of society. That will never change entirely because the differences are at least partly genetically based 50% in fact and those differences will always remain long into the future. (a desire to to be a dominant hunter provider projecting a healthy attachment image to attract the most beneficial mate for procreation- to an extent always entrenched hard wiring no matter how hard you try to soft wire eradicate).

The important thing is that despite innate differences between the sexes our capacity to act as educated people and gravitate
toward complete gender equality prevails as conscious choice.

 

[Dusty 17]

It's very easy to write that based of 2022 standards of both gender equality and connectivity through social media.

You forget the power dynamics that men had over women back then and that it was perfectly normal to go months without speaking to people because of limited Tech.

Her mum was a victim, as we are her friends too. I strongly disagree with your position.

I understand all that - and I even said that I had a similar mother, who thought that men were the be all and end all. This was the eighties though - so maybe on reflection, women weren’t as liberated as I thought. I found when I mixed with non teachers and stay at home mothers, that many were very different to the women I normally associated with - but - Lyn was a professional; Marilyn was a professional woman - and I am still surprised at that mother. Sorry. Maybe I am projecting, because my mother let me down badly at a very crucial time in my life around then.

 

[craffles]

I understand all that - and I even said that I had a similar mother, who thought that men were the be all and end all. This was the eighties though - so maybe on reflection, women weren’t as liberated as I thought. I found when I mixed with non teachers and stay at home mothers, that many were very different to the women I normally associated with - but - Lyn was a professional; Marilyn was a professional woman - and I am still surprised at that mother. Sorry. Maybe I am projecting, because my mother let me down badly at a very crucial time in my life around then.

No need to apologize and I am really sorry you had a difficult family experience, thanks for sharing with us. I have lots of trauma that triggers me way, way harder than what you did so well done on controlling the responses mate and sorry if I was a bit heavy handed in my reply. You never know who is at the end of the keyboard and how they are feeling.

Ultimately it's a tragic circumstance and in its simplest form we need to be better regardless. Don't ever be afraid to speak up and get support yourself mate

 

[FTY1]

Another episode of the podcast is out - Super Sleuths. They have given an email for questions if you want it. As with the last few there is a lot of fluff. It starts with the Coronial Inquests and ends up talking about various podcasts including the Lady Vanishes and Shandee's story.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Listened to the most recent podcast. I was unaware that there was no evidence provided of credit card transactions at all. Rather the 12/01 transaction information was from CD. The records are no longer available.

So financially we have no idea what transpired for LD immediately after LD disappearance from the financial perspective. Thats terrible. As far as police are concerned there could have been 6 months full of transaction data post disappearance. They simply wouldn't know. Nor do we.

Government agency information is helpful to proof of life if the enquiries aren't stilted by passage of time. Even then, I occasionally have taxpayers come to me not having lodged tax returns for 20 years, so it's not conclusive as credit card data would be.

 

[jason_recliner]

Listened to the most recent podcast. I was unaware that there was no evidence provided of credit card transactions at all. Rather the 12/01 transaction information was from CD. The records are no longer available.

So financially we have no idea what transpired for LD immediately after LD disappearance from the financial perspective. Thats terrible. As far as police are concerned there could have been 6 months full of transaction data post disappearance. They simply wouldn't know. Nor do we.

Government agency information is helpful to proof of life if the enquiries aren't stilted by passage of time. Even then, I occasionally have taxpayers come to me not having lodged tax returns for 20 years, so it's not conclusive as credit card data would be.

I, for one, am not surprised that there's no transaction history for a person who almost certainly has been murdered.

 

[FTY1]

Listened to the most recent podcast. I was unaware that there was no evidence provided of credit card transactions at all. Rather the 12/01 transaction information was from CD. The records are no longer available.

So financially we have no idea what transpired for LD immediately after LD disappearance from the financial perspective. Thats terrible. As far as police are concerned there could have been 6 months full of transaction data post disappearance. They simply wouldn't know. Nor do we.

Government agency information is helpful to proof of life if the enquiries aren't stilted by passage of time. Even then, I occasionally have taxpayers come to me not having lodged tax returns for 20 years, so it's not conclusive as credit card data would be.

There was definitely a credit card statement that was sent to the Child Care Centre. From memory Barbara Cruise had received a statement which she opened and looked at but could not remember any details on it. She had given it to Chris. I would expect that if it had been used after Lyn's disappearance it would be remembered.

That statement has never been produced. Surely it would have been kept for proof it it existed with a brother as a solicitor just in case. Being able to raise this in both the inquest and the trial without providing evidence is surely an advantage.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

There was definitely a credit card statement that was sent to the Child Care Centre. From memory Barbara Cruise had received a statement which she opened and looked at but could not remember any details on it. She had given it to Chris. I would expect that if it had been used after Lyn's disappearance it would be remembered.

That statement has never been produced. Surely it would have been kept for proof it it existed with a brother as a solicitor just in case. Being able to raise this in both the inquest and the trial without providing evidence is surely an advantage.

Yes she handed it back to CD I recall. But nothing in evidence.

I just want the full evidence whatever it discloses.

 

[Dusty 17]

There was definitely a credit card statement that was sent to the Child Care Centre. From memory Barbara Cruise had received a statement which she opened and looked at but could not remember any details on it. She had given it to Chris. I would expect that if it had been used after Lyn's disappearance it would be remembered.

That statement has never been produced. Surely it would have been kept for proof it it existed with a brother as a solicitor just in case. Being able to raise this in both the inquest and the trial without providing evidence is surely an advantage.

Chris was probably devious enough to use the credit card himself.


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[checkraiseulite]

what do people think the verdict will be?

i’ll guess not guilty as fishy as this all is.

 

[Kurve]

what do people think the verdict will be?

i’ll guess not guilty as fishy as this all is.

No idea here, really. I'm sure he killed her but I'm not so sure a judge would find there's enough there to convict him for it.

 

[BFew]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/verdict-ready-in-chris-dawson-murder-trial/news-story/20d8c726f7e18339919a4418fe22b378

'NSW Supreme Court judge Ian Harrison is ready to deliver his verdict in the trial of former teacher Chris Dawson for the alleged murder of his wife Lynette.
Justice Harrison will convict or acquit Mr Dawson on Tuesday, August 30.'

'The public will know precisely why Justice Harrison finds Mr Dawson guilty or not guilty due to a requirement in judge-alone trials for reasons to be published.'

In the case of the Claremont (Serial?) Killer, the WA Supreme Court trial judge published verdict decision document was 619 pages long and publicly published on the day (in Sep 2020) that the Trial Judge gave his verdict (Judge only trial).

https://ecourts.justice.wa.gov.au/eCourtsPortal/(X(1)S(a2z1jud25x5sqmnfuoswtq5z))/Decisions/DownloadDecision?id=9582e4ba-91ec-4119-998b-269447363aed

 

[insanity]

what do people think the verdict will be?

i’ll guess not guilty as fishy as this all is.

I'm thinking guilty. Not sure if the Teacher's Podcast is biased but from listening to it the defence did not do a great job...

 

[Dusty 17]

I'm thinking guilty. Not sure if the Teacher's Podcast is biased but from listening to it the defence did not do a great job...

Guilty. I cant see any evidence pointing to any other outcome for Lyn. And that is the crux of this - what happened to Lyn?


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[checkraiseulite]

Guilty. I cant see any evidence pointing to any other outcome for Lyn. And that is the crux of this - what happened to Lyn?


Sent from my iPad using BigFooty.com

that was the crux of the inquest.

agree it sounds from the podcast that the defence haven’t done an amazing job. but they don’t need to prove he didn’t do it.

going judge alone seems like a very smart decision.

 

[FTY1]

Today's episode of the podcast Episode 16 - Save the Date has questions answered like could JC have made that call to the Northbridge Baths. Would Lyn have left the girls at home while she was taken to the bus stop in Mona Vale? It also goes through a couple of Helena Simms letters. One to Pat and Ron a couple of weeks after Lyn's disappearance. Worth listening to.

 

[BFew]

Worth listening to.

I'll 2nd that.

 

[Poppy Penny]

I'll 2nd that.

Hellena’s last letter about losing contact with her granddaughters was heart breaking.

 

[Dusty 17]

Today's episode of the podcast Episode 16 - Save the Date has questions answered like could JC have made that call to the Northbridge Baths. Would Lyn have left the girls at home while she was taken to the bus stop in Mona Vale? It also goes through a couple of Helena Simms letters. One to Pat and Ron a couple of weeks after Lyn's disappearance. Worth listening to.

Very much worth listening to. I have been a bit harsh about that poor mother in some comments - and am happy to withdraw them. I took heart from what the judge remarked about her - and it would be wonderful if Helena’s sadly fruitless efforts in tracking down Lyn make all the difference to the judgement.


Sent from my iPad using BigFooty.com

 

[Dusty 17]

Today's episode of the podcast Episode 16 - Save the Date has questions answered like could JC have made that call to the Northbridge Baths. Would Lyn have left the girls at home while she was taken to the bus stop in Mona Vale? It also goes through a couple of Helena Simms letters. One to Pat and Ron a couple of weeks after Lyn's disappearance. Worth listening to.

Could also have been Marilyn. She and Paul were staying in an area that would have been STD at the time.


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[FTY1]

Could also have been Marilyn. She and Paul were staying in an area that would have been STD at the time.


Sent from my iPad using BigFooty.com

If it was an STD call I am sure it was Marilyn. It is also a possibility that there was no STD call at all and it was on another day. The girl with the diary had notes she worked that day and it was another girl who said she had an STD call for either Chris or Paul on a day in January.

I did find it interesting that the kids were away with Syd and Joan at Shoalhaven for 2 weeks after it occurred.

 

[PoopingHindi]

going judge alone seems like a very smart decision.

I know this was something the defence requested and I understand why but I believe it favours the prosecution.
I think there’s a significant amount of people who may feel that he’s guilty but would struggle to convict him based purely on circumstantial evidence…and you only need one of them on the jury.
Someone who understands the law better and is more capable of weighing evidence won’t have that mental roadblock.

Obviously I’m wrong or they wouldn’t have gone down this path but the thought still sticks in my brain.

 

[FTY1]

I know this was something the defence requested and I understand why but I believe it favours the prosecution.
I think there’s a significant amount of people who may feel that he’s guilty but would struggle to convict him based purely on circumstantial evidence…and you only need one of them on the jury.
Someone who understands the law better and is more capable of weighing evidence won’t have that mental roadblock.

Obviously I’m wrong or they wouldn’t have gone down this path but the thought still sticks in my brain.

I tried to have a look for statistics on this but they were out of date. Criminal Lawyers often have these statistics on their pages. I think over time the Judge Vs Jury Guilty/Acquittal statistics have got a lot more even. The only recent thing I could find on this was this Age article but it refers to NSW verdicts says they have marginally higher chance of acquittal.

"Mr FitzGerald, who represented the stepmother acquitted of abusing her stepson, said while there is some evidence of marginally higher acquittal rates over the first 20 years of judge-alone trials in NSW, it was too early to draw conclusions about Victoria."

More people acquitted in judge-only trials as applications increase

I had read an article a while ago which I can no longer find, that said if the case was a high profile case then it was more likely to be an acquittal with a judge.

With all these statistics it assumes that all cases are equal which I don't believe they are. The statistics don't also say if someone was acquitted because a lower charge was accepted. The old saying is there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

[PoopingHindi]

with the verdict just around the corner I figured I’d jump back into the podcast and see what’s happening…it was actually quite interesting.

I enjoyed the listener questions and the explanation of reasonable doubt from a defence attorney was very informative. After listening to it, and with a better understanding of what reasonably doubt actually is, I now for the first time believe there’s a strong chance of a guilty verdict.

The conversation about language and how meaning can change with perception, which changes with experience, was also interesting.

It finishes with the usual colour/fluff piece but you can always skip the last 10 minutes.

I’m really looking forward to Tuesday, not so much for the verdict but for the reasoning behind it.