Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[Chris Grant]

I rate Jack Martin as the most talented junior footballer that I've seen and I've been following junior football very regularly over the last 5 years. I really like Stringer and Macrae but Martin is just something else.

 

[Scary_Foot_9]

I rate Jack Martin as the most talented junior footballer that I've seen and I've been following junior football very regularly over the last 5 years. I really like Stringer and Macrae but Martin is just something else.

As special as Martin seemingly is, it will be hard for one player to out weigh the value of two great ones in the long run.

 

[doggies ftw]

As special as Martin seemingly is, it will be hard for one player to out weigh the value of two great ones in the long run.

Yeah agree with this, and its not like Macrae and Stringer don't have an extremely high ceiling as well, sure they might not end up as good as Martin but I doubt they will be a huge distance behind, I also see them both having much better careers than Anderson.

 

[Chris Grant]

As special as Martin seemingly is, it will be hard for one player to out weigh the value of two great ones in the long run.

But I think when you add Anderson to that, it's a fair debate.

 

[fronkalicious]

I just find myself asking too many questions about Macrae. Not quick, not a great kick, not a great set shot, no right side, not great one on one, nothing special about his tackling, so on and so forth. He needs to improve on a number of areas (at minimum his kicking and his ability one on one) for me to feel as though he's genuinely something special, whereas I can very clearly see what I expect Anderson to become. I'm not writing Jack off, it's just that my view on how good he actually becomes is still very foggy due to a variety of concerns. It's similar to how I feel about Bontempelli, although my uncertainty is much more extreme in the latter case. I still think Macrae will be a good player but I don't see his potential as being as high as others do.

This is the "paint by numbers" type of player analysis that gets teams into trouble IMO. I keep coming back to the eye test. Watch him play and what do you see?? I see a guy who just keeps finding the ball and is smarter than the next player. I see a kid with elite vision, footy smarts and a fire inside.

It's like meeting a chick that's good on paper, but the magic just isn't there. Macrae's the complete opposite. Kid's just got it.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

To be fair I think that Anderson this season was a tad overrated. It's easy to appear good when you're slot straight into a good team. Harder to appear good as a youngster slot into a bad team, which made Macrae and Stringer even more impressive this season.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

This is the "paint by numbers" type of player analysis that gets teams into trouble IMO. I keep coming back to the eye test. Watch him play and what do you see?? I see a guy who just keeps finding the ball and is smarter than the next player. I see a kid with elite vision, footy smarts and a fire inside.

It's like meeting a chick that's good on paper, but the magic just isn't there. Macrae's the complete opposite. Kid's just got it.

No, I don't think I'm using a paint by numbers approach as you've phrased it. I watch him play and I take notice of all of the things that you've said as well as all of the things that I've mentioned above. He finds the ball effortlessly both inside and outside but his disposal leaves a lot to be desired. When he's forced onto his right side and his sidestep is closed out he is lucky to get any sort of decent disposal away, and this will begin to happen more and more as opposition sides figure him out. He has a tendency to play "small football" and gain very little ground with his disposals, often opting for sideways ball or aimless kicks forward. He can really shank the ball too but that can be fixed. He has superb vision, great mobility and is deceptively good one on one and overhead in addition to his innate ball-winning ability, but past that I find myself questioning what he can become.

It's funny, the consensus on this board seems to be that he is a very good outside midfielder who can win his own ball, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that summary. To me he's an inside receiver who doubles as an inside extractor but can also distribute on the outside and I think once he fills out and builds more strength we'll see him move into the centre square with a 70-20-10 split inside, outside and forward. I think he'll be a very good player Fronk and in no way am I saying that you're wrong, I just personally don't see a future elite player of the competition in him.

 

[fronkalicious]

No, I don't think I'm using a paint by numbers approach as you've phrased it. I watch him play and I take notice of all of the things that you've said as well as all of the things that I've mentioned above. He finds the ball effortlessly both inside and outside but his disposal leaves a lot to be desired. When he's forced onto his right side and his sidestep is closed out he is lucky to get any sort of decent disposal away, and this will begin to happen more and more as opposition sides figure him out. He has a tendency to play "small football" and gain very little ground with his disposals, often opting for sideways ball or aimless kicks forward. He can really shank the ball too but that can be fixed. He has superb vision, great mobility and is deceptively good one on one and overhead in addition to his innate ball-winning ability, but past that I find myself questioning what he can become.

It's funny, the consensus on this board seems to be that he is a very good outside midfielder who can win his own ball, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that summary. To me he's an inside receiver who doubles as an inside extractor but can also distribute on the outside and I think once he fills out and builds more strength we'll see him move into the centre square with a 70-20-10 split inside, outside and forward. I think he'll be a very good player Fronk and in no way am I saying that you're wrong, I just personally don't see a future elite player of the competition in him.

Fair call man. Yep, he needs to work on his right foot, but I think his ball use in general was better than what you're suggesting. Re the backwards and sideways stuff, our most experienced players were leading the charge in this regard, so it's tough to hammer an 18 year old kid about it. I sincerely hope this kind of stuff isn't seen in 2014. As soon as we put it away, we played our best footy in 2013.

I actually think with his vision and decision making he can be one of the most damaging, creative mids in the comp in time. He's also an underrated goal-kicker. That's a massive part of his game and is another string to his bow that I can see pushing him into the elite category. Kid just knows where the big sticks are.

And finally, it's as much about the quality of the kid for me. He just seems like the kind of guy that HATES losing and will not stop at nothing to win.

 

[True Dog]

No, I don't think I'm using a paint by numbers approach as you've phrased it. I watch him play and I take notice of all of the things that you've said as well as all of the things that I've mentioned above. He finds the ball effortlessly both inside and outside but his disposal leaves a lot to be desired. When he's forced onto his right side and his sidestep is closed out he is lucky to get any sort of decent disposal away, and this will begin to happen more and more as opposition sides figure him out. He has a tendency to play "small football" and gain very little ground with his disposals, often opting for sideways ball or aimless kicks forward. He can really shank the ball too but that can be fixed. He has superb vision, great mobility and is deceptively good one on one and overhead in addition to his innate ball-winning ability, but past that I find myself questioning what he can become.

It's funny, the consensus on this board seems to be that he is a very good outside midfielder who can win his own ball, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that summary. To me he's an inside receiver who doubles as an inside extractor but can also distribute on the outside and I think once he fills out and builds more strength we'll see him move into the centre square with a 70-20-10 split inside, outside and forward. I think he'll be a very good player Fronk and in no way am I saying that you're wrong, I just personally don't see a future elite player of the competition in him.

I hear what you're saying Dannnnnnnnn and you may be proven correct in time, however I see a kid that has a hell of a lot more in the plus coloum than he does in the negative... I recall a 7 time best & fairest for our club who was slow and couldn't kick on his right foot yet was considered by most as an elite player of the competition unless your name was Mike Sheehan of course??

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I hear what you're saying Dannnnnnnnn and you may be proven correct in time, however I see a kid that has a hell of a lot more in the plus coloum than he does in the negative... I recall a 7 time best & fairest for our club who was slow and couldn't kick on his right foot yet was considered by most as an elite player of the competition unless your name was Mike Sheehan of course??

This I completely agree with - my argument is simply that I don't expect him to become an elite player of the competition. I expect him to be a very good player and he adds a lot of composure to our occasionally trigger-happy midfield, but I just don't personally see him reaching the heights some do. He definitely could, it's just not where I see him getting to.

 

[NthBondiDoggies]

There are some elite players - like Cotchin - who just always looked like it. Others take a bit longer - think Sam Mitchell.

I reckon Macrae's first year was pretty fantastic - his poise as a first year kid was pretty impressive but could be a little whole before we know either way - elite or not -!and now growing to 191/192 could be a whole new ball game.

By contrast Hunter look to have a skill level well above average but we don't know whether all the other aspects will come together. Tricky forward or elite midfielder

Stringer has flashes of Carey like dominance - but could be A. Jakovich?

Wallis really started to shine and live up to junior brilliance, Smith looks like he will exceed expectations and Libba is closest of the new group to elite status.

Cox was a rookie - Campbell?

Could be 7 elite - could be none - likely a few but not all.

 

[black pup]

What

I just find myself asking too many questions about Macrae. Not quick, not a great kick, not a great set shot, no right side, not great one on one, nothing special about his tackling, so on and so forth. He needs to improve on a number of areas (at minimum his kicking and his ability one on one) for me to feel as though he's genuinely something special, whereas I can very clearly see what I expect Anderson to become. I'm not writing Jack off, it's just that my view on how good he actually becomes is still very foggy due to a variety of concerns. It's similar to how I feel about Bontempelli, although my uncertainty is much more extreme in the latter case. I still think Macrae will be a good player but I don't see his potential as being as high as others do.

 

[Fossie 32]

Stringer has flashes of Carey like dominance - but could be A. Jakovich?

Was going to like but this hurt my eyes!

 

[black pup]

That is the greatest load of rubbish I have read in a long time. Maybe you should give us a little insight into your ability to critique such talent. Having watched Jack play TAC 2 years ago, and then watched his first game for Williamstown at Torquay, his first against men, which was outstanding, he then went on to have a terrific first season, by anyone's standard. ( except yours). Then you proceed to put the boots into Bontempelli. You carried on here for weeks why we should no recruit him. I for one as you as you probably know, was really pleased we recruited him. The boy has not had a chance to do anything right or wrong at this stage,( fair go). I personally believe our recruiters have done a magnificent job with our recruits since Macca arrived and our list is in the best shape it has been in for years. Smith, Talia, Young, Stevens, Goodes , Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat, Hunter, Prudden . Thank god we have trained professionals doing our recruiting, and not amateurs.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

You clearly have comprehension issues so I'm not going to bother with that.

 

[black pup]

This I completely agree with - my argument is simply that I don't expect him to become an elite player of the competition. I expect him to be a very good player and he adds a lot of composure to our occasionally trigger-happy midfield, but I just don't personally see him reaching the heights some do. He definitely could, it's just not where I see him getting to.

What a bit each way now, you are unbelievable, what about the sun will it or won't it come up in the morning. Why not have a guess.

 

[ManOfClay]

By contrast Hunter look to have a skill level well above average

That passage of play with him and Dahlhaus on the wing in either the crows, carlton or 2nd eagles game in 2013, wow.

 

[Dav1d]

That passage of play with him and Dahlhaus on the wing in either the crows, carlton or 2nd eagles game in 2013, wow.

West Coast game, if it was marked and foaled; the passage of play would of definitely been on the highlight reel
think the Hunter mark came in the Crows game

 

[paulveed]

I just find myself asking too many questions about Macrae. Not quick, not a great kick, not a great set shot, no right side, not great one on one, nothing special about his tackling, so on and so forth. He needs to improve on a number of areas (at minimum his kicking and his ability one on one) for me to feel as though he's genuinely something special, whereas I can very clearly see what I expect Anderson to become. I'm not writing Jack off, it's just that my view on how good he actually becomes is still very foggy due to a variety of concerns. It's similar to how I feel about Bontempelli, although my uncertainty is much more extreme in the latter case. I still think Macrae will be a good player but I don't see his potential as being as high as others do.

Dannnnnn,
We were all 'KIDS' once and, as such we all had more than our share of weaknesses and limitations. What makes us mature adults is our ability or otherwise to rise above them. Will Macrae learn to find a way to exceed his limitations, or find a way around them? That is a question only time will answer.
Very few 'champions' are born, or even reach the top level already devoid of any weaknesses in their game. Will Macrae reach the absolute elite level, or not? Who can say. Does he have enough 'stuff' to give him the chance to make it. Perhaps. We have all seen players with less natural talent at a comparable stage go on to achieve elite status... Williams [Carlton], Scot West, etc for example. We have also seen players with more natural talent go on to achieve precious little. Is it all in the coaching, or is it all in the head? Damned if I know the answer to that, though if forced to guess, I would say that varies from one individual to another.

Don't ask me why, but my gut tells me Macrae has a good chance of getting a hell of a lot better in a few years time. Perhaps I just have confidence in the environment that is growing at the Whitten Oval these days. Though I must admit there have always been players who I doubted would make 'IT'. It is always easy to sound bright with the advantage of hind sight, but there have always been some [ like Howard and Everitt] where from day one I always had serious doubts.

Will he be a world beater? Damned if I know. But if we are putting the right coaches and competition for spots around him, I believe the option is there for his taking. I hope he goes on to be the next Griff. Will he ??????

 

[Scary_Foot_9]

Elite status is a hard thing for a player to reach. J-Mac could play 200+ games win a B&F or two and never be considered 'Elite'.

 

[doggies ftw]

You cant argue with what he has done so far, looked right at home in the afl from day 1 and killed it when he went back to the VFL, what more can you ask from an 18 year old.

 

[Dav1d]

You cant argue with what he has done so far, looked right at home in the afl from day 1 and killed it when he went back to the VFL, what more can you ask from an 18 year old.

51 goals

 

[Interloper]

West Coast game, if it was marked and foaled; the passage of play would of definitely been on the highlight reel
think the Hunter mark came in the Crows game

If I'm not mistaken they were playing with a Sherrin that day and not a horse. They would not play with a horse of course unless of course they could source a horse and force a horse but that's another tail.
Marked and goaled it is of course. I remember I yelled myself hoarse.
Spellers' remorse

 

[Dav1d]

If I'm not mistaken they were playing with a Sherrin that day and not a horse. They would not play with a horse of course unless of course they could source a horse and force a horse but that's another tail.
Marked and goaled it is of course. I remember I yelled myself hoarse.
Spellers' remorse

I was auto corrected to a word I didn't want!
I noticed reel was spelt as real and fixed that, but didn't pick up on that
Shame on me

 

[Interloper]

I was auto corrected to a word I didn't want!
I noticed reel was spelt as real and fixed that, but didn't pick up on that
Shame on me

I'm having the same trouble with this new phone I have. Think I'll disable it.