Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[cleveland]

Theres something about the rat I like too

 

[The_Bulldogs_Bite]

Also a fan of Hrovat, hampered by injuries in his first season yet still showed more than enough. I think he'll have a pretty solid 2014, ditto Hunter.

 

[King Harold]

Theres something about the rat I like too

Yeah come round 22 next year think he will be well and truly established in our starting line up.
Going to be a great player for this club.

 

[boydsno1]

I love the Rat. My fav of last years draftee's. I think he showed the most followed by Hunter. Stringer and Macrae will be guns and like most i love Stringer but Rat has future captain written all over him. So well spoken aswell. Can be our media guy also.

 

[Clay]

Nathan Hrovat to win Rising Star. Potentially the best kid I have seen at Bulldogs in last 25 years. Go Rat.

Bit of a crazy call but I agree at least that Hrovat is a very special young player from what I've seen of him. Best 22 already in my books.

 

[Some Idiot]

I think Hrovat is the most well rounded of the draftees, hard to see a weakness in his game unless you count his height. The others I think have a special attribute or two that he doesn't have, (Macrae's spatial awareness, Hunter's vision, Stringer's strength and potentially speed) but don't have the same well rounded game.

 

[yebiga]

I think Hrovat is the most well rounded of the draftees, hard to see a weakness in his game unless you count his height. The others I think have a special attribute or two that he doesn't have, (Macrae's spatial awareness, Hunter's vision, Stringer's strength and potentially speed) but don't have the same well rounded game.

It's like trying to decide which of your children you love most.
FWIW there be something about this foursome from last year. Unlike some of our draftees from previous years, these guys exude an absolute confidence in themselves. I think their own expectations of themselves are all very high. They all expect to be starting regulars in our 22 during 2014, and would be mega pissed at themselves if it were not to eventuate. All 4 have shown they can tear games apart at VFL standard.

 

[Godogs247]

You do

 

[True Dog]

It's like trying to decide which of your children you love most.
FWIW there be something about this foursome from last year. Unlike some of our draftees from previous years, these guys exude an absolute confidence in themselves. I think their own expectations of themselves are all very high. They all expect to be starting regulars in our 22 during 2014, and would be mega pissed at themselves if it were not to eventuate. All 4 have shown they can tear games apart at VFL standard.

Have you been reading my mind??? FWIW Macrae was putting on the moves at training today wrong footing guys left right and centre and if that wasn't enough to make you drool the Bontman was cutting a rug with the midfield group himself...

 

[Godogs247]

I have this feeling that Macrae will become a great player for our club ever since he's gained the kg i strongly believe he's gonna have a great year running through the midfield or across half back.

Ok want the stats on johno hawkins and even mr football you will find this kid is way in front -love him boys our wings od bon and mcrae are as classy as the club will ever see.

 

[King Harold]

Ok want the stats on johno hawkins and even mr football you will find this kid is way in front -love him boys our wings od bon and mcrae are as classy as the club will ever see

Take a breath Godog , Mr Football played CHB in a premiership team in his first year.
But Macrae was outstanding last year and I am a big fan.
We have drafted 5 potential guns in one draft , Happy Days

 

[Super Hans]

Ok want the stats on johno hawkins and even mr football you will find this kid is way in front -love him boys our wings od bon and mcrae are as classy as the club will ever see

wut.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

That's fine mate and I appreciate your passion, but I feel this in depth analysis would be better served on players with at least 3 years on our list. Nobody really knows how these boys are going to end up. The only thing I am convinced of, for their age they are in privileged position, and have been chosen by our club because of their ability. They are 18 year olds working their guts out trying to achieve their dream. As for my comprehension, who cares.

Yep, I can't disagree with any of that. My point on Macrae wasn't intended to be a baseless slight against him or anything of the sort, it was just an opinion on the Anderson vs. Macrae debate - in which both of them have only had a year. Am enjoying watching both of them develop and as you mentioned earlier, Macrae's first year was fantastic. He could well prove me wrong and become an elite player - which I'd be really happy with, obviously.

The only thing I would say re your argument that players will know to expect his side step when forced onto his right side is : At pace instinct tends to take over for most players [ yes very experienced and particularly alert players will remember and sweat on him because of it] most of the time. My observation is that lefties tend to get away with it far more often than right footers. Instinct does take over more often than not when time to think and remember is limited, which helps explain why lefties get away with more than their right footed counterparts.

You make a great point re: instinct, however I'd argue that this is reduced a little when you're talking about 'top-line players'. In this case I'm assuming Macrae goes on to be somewhere between very good and elite, in which case this sort of weakness is going to be brought up in every single brief for every single team before they play us. If, by the time he makes a name for himself, he hasn't improved this side of his game, you're going to have every opposition midfielder targeting it and being aware of it. While instinct does play a part, and lefties do indeed get away with more, this sort of limitation becomes more of an issue as the player gets better as it gets a lot of focus in team meetings and the like. On the basis of this I think it sits as a 'wall' between very good and elite, rather than a barrier that he needs to break through to become a good player, if that makes sense.

 

[Snake Livermore]

Have you been reading my mind??? FWIW Macrae was putting on the moves at training today wrong footing guys left right and centre and if that wasn't enough to make you drool the Bontman was cutting a rug with the midfield group himself...

If I could like this post 50 times I would. Did Hrovat and Prudden train? How are they looking injury wise?

 

[paulveed]

Yep, I can't disagree with any of that. My point on Macrae wasn't intended to be a baseless slight against him or anything of the sort, it was just an opinion on the Anderson vs. Macrae debate - in which both of them have only had a year. Am enjoying watching both of them develop and as you mentioned earlier, Macrae's first year was fantastic. He could well prove me wrong and become an elite player - which I'd be really happy with, obviously.




You make a great point re: instinct, however I'd argue that this is reduced a little when you're talking about 'top-line players'. In this case I'm assuming Macrae goes on to be somewhere between very good and elite, in which case this sort of weakness is going to be brought up in every single brief for every single team before they play us. If, by the time he makes a name for himself, he hasn't improved this side of his game, you're going to have every opposition midfielder targeting it and being aware of it. While instinct does play a part, and lefties do indeed get away with more, this sort of limitation becomes more of an issue as the player gets better as it gets a lot of focus in team meetings and the like. On the basis of this I think it sits as a 'wall' between very good and elite, rather than a barrier that he needs to break through to become a good player, if that makes sense.

As with most things Dannnnnn, I have little argument with your position, except....does that not assume that as his opponents come to terms with this perceived weakness in his game, he will not either overcome that weakness, with the aid of good coaching, or like so many players with a recognised weakness before him, find a way around those who work to his weakness?
Cross and West were never great kicks for instance. So they tended to kick within their limitations, and became extraordinarily good with their hands to compensate. Do you truly believe the current level of Macrae's game is as good as it is ever going to get, or that he and the coaches are incapable of improving or varying his play?

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

As with most things Dannnnnn, I have little argument with your position, except....does that not assume that as his opponents come to terms with this perceived weakness in his game, he will not either overcome that weakness, with the aid of good coaching, or like so many players with a recognised weakness before him, find a way around those who work to his weakness?
Cross and West were never great kicks for instance. So they tended to kick within their limitations, and became extraordinarily good with their hands to compensate. Do you truly believe the current level of Macrae's game is as good as it is ever going to get, or that he and the coaches are incapable of improving or varying his play?

No, I don't think that he's hit his ceiling and I've no doubt that his game will improve. My point is simply that at this stage, I feel that he's a bit one-dimensional and quite predictable. There are three major reasons why I believe that this could prove to be a more difficult limitation to overcome completely than others you see in juniors. Firstly, because it's mostly instinctual and instincts can prove quite difficult and time-consuming to shift, especially as players tend to regress when put under extreme pressure. Macrae has had this "sidestep whenever you're in trouble" mentality throughout his junior career, and I noticed in a few instances that he did just this in situations where it was impossible to do so, and it ended up putting him in even more trouble. It's difficult to change this; it's the way he's always known and the way that's always been successful for him, and players don't go away from this easily. Secondly, due to his confidence (or lack thereof) on his non-preferred. In order to reduce his dependence on this sidestep in pressure situations he needs to be able to use his opposing side frequently - something that he simply doesn't do at the moment. He hesitates whenever he is actually forced to do so and often opts to offload the ball in whatever way is possible, but not necessarily effective. I have faith that his kick will improve but I feel as though his confidence in it is at such a low base that it's going to have to improve a hell of a lot before he begins to have faith in it at the level that's required of him. Lastly, and semi-related to the previous point, he doesn't have much of a fall-back option if the sidestep isn't a reasonable possibility. His right foot kick has been covered already, and at this stage his left kick is decent, but not exactly a weapon. His hands are fantastic in close but in many of these situations he is on the outside moving away from the contest.

I believe that Macrae's game is tailored for an inside player, but at this stage he's held back from doing so due to a few other weaknesses (including strength and size). The few VFL games of his I saw, he was playing much closer to the centre with much more support and many more options than he has on the outside in the AFL, and he was quite impressive. Not that he wasn't at AFL level for a 19 year old, just that his game looked more suited to that role. That's another reason why I haven't quite made my mind up on whether he'll become elite or not - personally I feel as though his game is built around a position that we're yet to see him play in.

 

[True Dog]

If I could like this post 50 times I would. Did Hrovat and Prudden train? How are they looking injury wise?

Hrovat trained well, it was only a light session today with a biggie on the cards for Friday... He was with the forwards for most of the ball work and ran strongly in the running drills. Didn't see Prudden or any of the "rehab" group.... No Smith, Higgins, Cooney, Redpath, Howard, Fuller.... I couldn't belive how thin Stringer was, looked a million bucks, still runs with a waddle, we might have to nicname him duck (if only he truns out just as good)... Special mention to Dickson who also ran and trained well...

 

[Interloper]

On McCrae, the fact he has a sidestep at all is a better fallback position than most players will have when put in a difficult position. He is competent on his left already. Most players will only ever have their preferred boot to get out of trouble. McCrae is already effectively 1 up. How many of our preferred right footers can kick on their left? Can't think of 1 but happy to be corrected. If McCrae can develop a right foot he will be so far above the majority of the competition with a left, right and a sidestep. At the moment we settle for 2 out of 3 which already elevates above average and hope he can achieve the 3 (I've no doubt he/they'll be working on it). Add to that his already exposed work rate, tackling and vision and I have few concerns. We are simply spoiled at the moment and splitting off season hairs. Fact is there doesn't appear to be a dud amongst our top end reruits and even the mid rounders look good/promising. We've struck the jackpot and a flag is close.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

On McCrae, the fact he has a sidestep at all is a better fallback position than most players will have when put in a difficult position. He is competent on his left already. Most players will only ever have their preferred boot to get out of trouble. McCrae is already effectively 1 up. How many of our preferred right footers can kick on their left? Can't think of 1 but happy to be corrected. If McCrae can develop a right foot he will be so far above the majority of the competition with a left, right and a sidestep. At the moment we settle for 2 out of 3 which already elevates above average and hope he can achieve the 3 (I've no doubt he/they'll be working on it). Add to that his already exposed work rate, tackling and vision and I have few concerns. We are simply spoiled at the moment and splitting off season hairs. Fact is there doesn't appear to be a dud amongst our top end reruits and even the mid rounders look good/promising. We've struck the jackpot and a flag is close.

You raise a good point in that his sidestep is a better fall back than many players have, but the problem I see is when you pair it with his other attributes. His kick isn't great; in fact it was rated either poor or below average (will have to double check this when I have the figures in front of me) by CD. They have some flawed systems but kick rating is generally very good. Considering 65% of Macrae's disposals were uncontested, that's a pretty telling stat. He has the vision but I don't think he has the execution from both the stats and from watching closely. When coupled with his very poor non-preferred I think it makes him a pretty easy player to target. None of our players are Sam Mitchell-level even on both sides, but most of them are at least reasonable and can use it when they're forced to. Macrae seems to have no confidence in it at all, and from the little I've seen it's not very good at all.

Anyway I've never been arguing that he's a dud or anything of the sort. I was as impressed as anybody with his first year and he's done nothing wrong as yet; I just enjoy discussing where people see a player's game progressing into the future.

 

[black pup]

Champion data stats are only that stats, they can be very misleading. They should only a guide and should be used as such.
A good example of this was Luke Dahlhaus in is draft year, he and Michael Turner were so frustrated with recruiters continuely over looking him for his so called really poor disposable, he was leading tackler in TAC, and his stats were very good in all other areas.
This frustration led Michael and Luke to sent a DVD to all clubs of Luke's highlights, showing where he got his possessions, which were mainly in and under and always under pressure. This showed the reason for his poor disposable.
Thank god our recruiters gave him a chance. I believe sats have a place, but that's it, only a place. They are not gospel and must be put into context.

 

[Reptilia]

Champion data stats are only that stats, they can be very misleading. They should only a guide and should be used as such.
A good example of this was Luke Dahlhaus in is draft year, he and Michael Turner were so frustrated with recruiters continuely over looking him for his so called really poor disposable, he was leading tackler in TAC, and his stats were very good in all other areas.
This frustration led Michael and Luke to sent a DVD to all clubs of Luke's highlights, showing where he got his possessions, which were mainly in and under and always under pressure. This showed the reason for his poor disposable.
Thank god our recruiters gave him a chance. I believe sats have a place, but that's it, only a place. They are not gospel and must be put into context.

I agree with this!

 

[yebiga]

For mine, 50% of the kids that are recruited nowadays are capable of being elite and all of them are capable of being serviceable. The deciding factor is in their heads not their abilities. Certainly injuries may cruel their careers but aside from that its up to them. Any kid recruited nowadays is so extensively researched that clearly almost all have the ability to reach AFL standard.

Consider Geelong's Captain Selwood. On the surface he has no outstanding skills set, he is neither quick nor elusive. His kicking average, his hand balling average but his sheer desire, courage and will power put him in the elite class of AFL players. On the other hand, north melbourne's Wells, has sublime skills, speed, evasiveness, vision, grace. He is around 30 years of age and it is only the last 2 seasons where he has delivered performances with any consistency but still below Selwood.

Macrae, Stringer, Hunter, Hrovat are very determined young men. They all have deficiencies in their game, they also all have strengths. Ablett Snr, Matthews, Carey, Lockett like Geelong's Selwood all had deficiencies. They just got the most out of the strengths they did possess.

 

[KDF67]

Whatever his deficiencies, and I've been on the 'one-sided' bandwagon from the first time I saw him play, one of Jack Macrae's most impressive assets is that he has elite vision; he can see opportunities at ground level that I can't see from the stands. He is not a great kick, but he often mongrels/floats the ball to an unlikely place and opens up play in a way that others wouldn't. You can teach a get-out-of-gaol non-preferred, but the sort of vision Jack has is innate, unteachable and priceless. It's one of the things that makes him seem to have a little more time than others. He's still learning the game. Expect him to become a serious inside/outside playmaker in the next couple of years. Now that he has bulked up and grown another inch, the early comparisons with Pendlebury may not have been that far from the mark.

 

[fronkalicious]

Champion data stats are only that stats, they can be very misleading. They should only a guide and should be used as such.
A good example of this was Luke Dahlhaus in is draft year, he and Michael Turner were so frustrated with recruiters continuely over looking him for his so called really poor disposable, he was leading tackler in TAC, and his stats were very good in all other areas.
This frustration led Michael and Luke to sent a DVD to all clubs of Luke's highlights, showing where he got his possessions, which were mainly in and under and always under pressure. This showed the reason for his poor disposable.
Thank god our recruiters gave him a chance. I believe sats have a place, but that's it, only a place. They are not gospel and must be put into context.

Sidenote - I grew up next to mick turner in ocean grove. He and diesel Williams would come over for dinner when mick's wife was away cos they couldn't cook. Nice fella.

 

[black pup]

Sidenote - I grew up next to mick turner in ocean grove. He and diesel Williams would come over for dinner when mick's wife was away cos they couldn't cook. Nice fella.

I did a bit of junior development early days with Vic Fuller and Kevin Sheahan, I understand where you are coming from.Good Bloke.