Opinion Troy Menzel - Where is he at?

[Golumless]

Well worth the risk. Could have paid off. Was a good roll of the dice, wish we'd do stuff like that more.

Absolutely was. Though, we've done it a few times. Lynch, Johnston, Hampton and Seedsman come to mind.

That somewhat highly rated player who hasn't come on has really been our bread and butter trade for the past decade.

 

[Sanders]

Well worth the risk. Could have paid off. Was a good roll of the dice, wish we'd do stuff like that more.

Absolutely

But being a worthwhile gamble is not the same as that gamble paying off

Pick 28 & Kerridge was a big loss in retrospect

 

[Iron]

Absolutely

But being a worthwhile gamble is not the same as that gamble paying off

Pick 28 & Kerridge was a big loss in retrospect

Well sure, but in retrospect any trade for a player who fails to make a single contribution will be a failure. Think its more productive to look at that sort of trade as a nice try.

 

[John Who]

Absolutely

But being a worthwhile gamble is not the same as that gamble paying off

Pick 28 & Kerridge was a big loss in retrospect

The recruiting team can only make do with the odds they have at the time. They don’t work in retrospect or hindsight, unlike us with the benefit over time to do a comparison.

The Troy Menzel move I was eager to see what the result was, because he genuinely looked like a potential star, not unlike his brother Dan. His delisting was disappointing, but I think more to do with his mind not being fully committed than a lack of necessary talent.

 

[GreyCrow]

The Troy Menzel move I was eager to see what the result was, because he genuinely looked like a potential star, not unlike his brother Dan. His delisting was disappointing, but I think more to do with his mind not being fully committed than a lack of necessary talent.

Probably should have hired a psychologist

 

[Thetrader15]

Well worth the risk. Could have paid off. Was a good roll of the dice, wish we'd do stuff like that more.

And 10 games for carlton is like 1 for us

 

[Sanders]

The recruiting team can only make do with the odds they have at the time. They don’t work in retrospect or hindsight, unlike us with the benefit over time to do a comparison.

So you don’t think results matter?

 

[1970crow]

I actually rate the trade itself rather highly. 2nd rounder (ignoring the on-trade) and depth with promise for a top 10 regular (and shown some promise to boot). That's not far off ideal for a player of Menzels calibre.

Despite that however, Menzel was such a flop that break even is probably the most generous rating you could give it (and really to give it, you're focusing primarily the trade itself). Really it's a trade that we shouldn't have lost, but shit happens occasionally.

Of course that is all completely ignoring the Dangerfield sized elephant which does make this deal a whole lot worse.

I'm still glad we did the trade, packaging up foot soldiers and picks in pursuit of high end talent is exactly what we should be doing. But it turned out to be a reasonably large loss. Someone trying to paint it as a win is complete fantasy though.

 

[1970crow]

Probably should have hired a psychologist

If only we'd turned to Collective Minds earlier.

 

[Golumless]

I'm still glad we did the trade, packaging up foot soldiers and picks in pursuit of high end talent is exactly what we should be doing. But it turned out to be a reasonably large loss. Someone trying to paint it as a win is complete fantasy though.

It's a loss, but it's to the equivalent of a 2nd rounder not working out which is more in the "ah well" category then actually doing damage to a clubs aspirations.

That's probably the one good part of this trade, we didn't use a first rounder. That's the point a loss becomes reasonably large.

 

[John Who]

Probably should have hired a psychologist

If only we'd turned to Collective Minds earlier.

Liked the posts for the humor.

Note though how in Troy’s situation, the club didn’t bother with a psychologist and no fans are chucking tantrums no psychologists were utilised to get his mind more on the job? I’ve been trying to make a point many times over, a psychologist can’t help fix everything to do with the mind!

 

[John Who]

So you don’t think results matter?

Of course results matter! But results always need to be in context, and never ever on face value only.

Kerridge (midfielder) moving to Carlton, he was always going to be played from the get go because their midfield depths are low. Troy (forward) in for us was always going to be a punt more than a certainty. Especially when our forward line had Betts and Cameron being our settled small forwards.

 

[GreyCrow]

Note though how in Troy’s situation, the club didn’t bother with a psychologist and no fans are chucking tantrums no psychologists were utilised to get his mind more on the job? I’ve been trying to make a point many times over, a psychologist can’t help fix everything to do with the mind!

So how do you know the psychologist couldnt fix Troy?

The bolded bit are at odds with each other.

 

[Apsaalooke]

Well sure, but in retrospect any trade for a player who fails to make a single contribution will be a failure. Think its more productive to look at that sort of trade as a nice try.

A definite failure. I wonder if got got stuck in the headlights because of some highlight reels and didn't do our due diligence with a pre-trade psychological profile. Carlton got rid of him for a reason that we didn't catch on to, similar to Tambling. No huge loss apart from a 2nd rounder but hopefully we learn from it.

 

[Golumless]

A definite failure. I wonder if got got stuck in the headlights because of some highlight reels and didn't do our due diligence with a pre-trade psychological profile. Carlton got rid of him for a reason that we didn't catch on to, similar to Tambling. No huge loss apart from a 2nd rounder but hopefully we learn from it.

I would say we did our due diligence and thought Menzel was a good chance to change his ways at a better club. We didn't pay much so I would say we were well aware of the risk.

 

[Apsaalooke]

I would say we did our due diligence and thought Menzel was a good chance to change his ways at a better club. We didn't pay much so I would say we were well aware of the risk.

Pick 28 in 2015 was used by Carlton to help get some GWS rejects then ultimately for Luke Partington who just got delisted too, with not too many superstars in the draft after that. Kerridge did at least win 1 game for us but no great loss. In the end a bit of nothing all round really.

 

[1970crow]

Pick 28 in 2015 was used by Carlton to help get some GWS rejects then ultimately for Luke Partington who just got delisted too, with not too many superstars in the draft after that. Kerridge did at least win 1 game for us but no great loss. In the end a bit of nothing all round really.

So if you trade someone like Danger for a mid 40's pick and select Sloane it's only a small loss at the trade table. But if you sell him for pick 1 and take Watts, it was a massive loss. So pick 1 is less valuable to you than 45?

 

[John Who]

So how do you know the psychologist couldnt fix Troy?

The bolded bit are at odds with each other.

Are you saying all AFL players need psychological sessions as an AFL requirement?
Or are you suggesting all soon-to-be delisted players require a psychological assessment to see whether they should be delisted?

Another take:
- for mind healing - see psychologist
- for decisions on whether a player should (mentally) toughen up or when to be delisted - coaches' job (no need for a psychology degree).

 

[GreyCrow]

Are you saying all AFL players need psychological sessions as an AFL requirement?
Or are you suggesting all soon-to-be delisted players require a psychological assessment to see whether they should be delisted?

Another take:
- for mind healing - see psychologist
- for decisions on whether a player should (mentally) toughen up or when to be delisted - coaches' job (no need for a psychology degree).

I am saying your comments are at odds with each other

You blurted out that the club didnt use a psychologist then said psychologists cant help. Either they did and couldnt help Troy or they didnt.

I do know exactly what occurs, but I shall let you stumble around a little more

 

[John Who]

I am saying your comments are at odds with each other

You blurted out that the club didnt use a psychologist then said psychologists cant help. Either they did and couldnt help Troy or they didnt.

I do know exactly what occurs, but I shall let you stumble around a little more

Obviously I won't know if a club psychologist is involved with any of the players. The points are not at odds at all. Whether a club psychologist is used or not, this has no bearing on the generalisation of "psychologists can help heal the mind, but they're not always needed to help motivate (or to decide on whether a delisting should occur)."

 

[GreyCrow]

Obviously I won't know if a club psychologist is involved with any of the players. The points are not at odds at all. Whether a club psychologist is used or not, this has no bearing on the generalisation of "psychologists can help heal the mind, but they're not always needed to help motivate (or to decide on whether a delisting should occur)."

You definitively said ' In Troys situation the club didnt use a psychologist' . You then went on to rubbish psychologists once again. Not once did you link his delisting to the lack of a psychologist until now.

I would be disappointed if the club was making delisting or retention decisions based on a psychologists report.

 

[Apsaalooke]

So if you trade someone like Danger for a mid 40's pick and select Sloane it's only a small loss at the trade table. But if you sell him for pick 1 and take Watts, it was a massive loss. So pick 1 is less valuable to you than 45?

I'm not sure what you mean. What I meant was that in the 2015 draft there was nobody at pick 28 that we've regretted not taking (except McDonald-Tipungwuti and maybe Majak Daw in the rookie draft but we passed on those anyway).
In other years missing out on pick 28 may have been a retrospective mistake, so we got lucky.

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

Absolutely

But being a worthwhile gamble is not the same as that gamble paying off

Pick 28 & Kerridge was a big loss in retrospect

Was it though? I’m not sure Kerridge would have lasted this long if he remained on our list. As for pick 28, it was a deep draft and I don’t think there were good players taken after that pick. On its own I don’t think it’s a big loss.

I’ve said before that in retrospect the real loss was the opportunity cost of not trading up for higher draft pick.

 

[Scorpus]

Was it though? I’m not sure Kerridge would have lasted this long if he remained on our list. As for pick 28, it was a deep draft and I don’t think there were good players taken after that pick. On its own I don’t think it’s a big loss.

I’ve said before that in retrospect the real loss was the opportunity cost of not trading up for higher draft pick.

2015 was one of the shallowest drafts in recent years. Almost zero good players taken after pick 20. A barren wasteland. Best player probably Tom Papley and he was taken in the rookie draft

 

[John Who]

You definitively said ' In Troys situation the club didnt use a psychologist' . You then went on to rubbish psychologists once again. Not once did you link his delisting to the lack of a psychologist until now.

I would be disappointed if the club was making delisting or retention decisions based on a psychologists report.

I’m actually a bit confused with your post. First of all, I have never rubbished the role of a psychologist. They have a significant role in help dealing with mental conditions eg. grief counseling, PTSD, depression etc.

Regarding Troy, I made the statement that no psychologists were involved in the decision for his delisting, with the emphasis on the talks of posters on here acknowledging his “mind” wasn’t quite on the job. This is a point to counter the common misconception that all mental issues “need” to involve a psychologist.