Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[sr36]

So the question is why don't the Eagles and Dockers put in to produce the talent and the answer again comes back to why should they if the talent leaves WA and we get no access really to them.

The why should they is really obvious if you ask me. The more local talent the better off they are in terms of recruitiment - a percentage of players do want to return to their home state - and the more involvement they have with junior development the more hidden gems they'll uncover.

Stewart, Miers, Atkins and Jack Henry are pretty bloody important for the Cats - all acquired on the cheap and probably wouldn't be there if the Cats didn't play a big role in development of the players in their local area. Does Danger come back if he wasn't a Geelong Falcon or choose the Cats if they hadn't worked with him as a junior.

WCE with all their cash have dropped the ball big time. Cat's involvment with junior footy in their area is a significant factor in why they stay up the ladder.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

The why should they is really obvious if you ask me. The more local talent the better off they are in terms of recruitiment - a percentage of players do want to return to their home state - and the more involvement they have with junior development the more hidden gems they'll uncover.

Stewart, Miers, Atkins and Jack Henry are pretty bloody important for the Cats - all acquired on the cheap and probably wouldn't be there if the Cats didn't play a big role in development of the players in their local area. Does Danger come back if he wasn't a Geelong Falcon or choose the Cats if they hadn't worked with him as a junior.

WCE with all their cash have dropped the ball big time. Cat's involvment with junior footy in their area is a significant factor in why they stay up the ladder.

I am not saying it’s right, I am saying as it is.

 

[p4p1]

And just like players, the same applies to off field staff - if you're an in demand assistant coach, fitness trainer, recruiter or administrator who wants to live in Victoria, where are you going Collingwood or North?

If you want a job in the AFL as in any of the roles you have mentioned, being in Victoria not only allows you more chance to accept a better offer without uprooting your family.

If you lose your job, there is 9 other teams within driving distance that might hire you. In the other states if you lose your job and want to stay in the AFL industry, you are likely going to need to move states.

 

[p4p1]

The why should they is really obvious if you ask me. The more local talent the better off they are in terms of recruitiment - a percentage of players do want to return to their home state - and the more involvement they have with junior development the more hidden gems they'll uncover.

Stewart, Miers, Atkins and Jack Henry are pretty bloody important for the Cats - all acquired on the cheap and probably wouldn't be there if the Cats didn't play a big role in development of the players in their local area. Does Danger come back if he wasn't a Geelong Falcon or choose the Cats if they hadn't worked with him as a junior.

WCE with all their cash have dropped the ball big time. Cat's involvment with junior footy in their area is a significant factor in why they stay up the ladder.

Cats have been very good with mature age recruits, recognising that they might not get a decade plus out of them but they will be better someone else on their list or through the draft in a role for a few years.

Surely there is a couple of guys running around in the state leagues that will cost WCE next to nothing but will improve their results for a few years while they are rebuilding with high-end draft picks.

 

[Grin]

Not gonna blame Vic bias for dockers losing to the suns.

Gutted with the loss but not angry or upset about it.

Neutral fans would say the dockers vs suns Elim final was watchable

AFL did want Brisbane vs Gold coast in a final.

I’d love to see Collingwood lose to a non-Vic club

 

[joe444]

I’d love to see Collingwood lose to a non-Vic club

And that's the thing, isn't it? Behind the vicbias stuff is this assumption is that we all band together when, in fact, we have century-old rivalries. e.g. If the Cats can't win it, a West Coast fivepeat is fine if it means watching Essendon suffer.

 

[Freomaniac]

It's more than just free agency, it's also cultural attitudes towards player movement. But I think you are wrong to say it favours Vic teams. It disfavours just as many Vic teams. On average it actually favours the WA teams as the ratio of players in the league from WA compared to the ratio of clubs in the league from WA is really favourable. And you see it with a guy like Liam Baker moving to WCE - a fellow current basket case team like North would have to pay a godfather offer to attract a standard setter like him. And you see it with how many players Freo have attracted in recent years. Freo have been comparable to the Saints in terms of success and aura within the league - yet you've been consistently able to attract high profile recruits without paying through the nose like the Saints are currently doing - as they only have one other team competing for quite a lot of go home recruits.

What it does though is that it makes the Vic clubs more extreme - really good or really bad and Collingwood and Geelong who have an extra recruiting pull within the Vic market - beyond just the state - the Pies size, massive crowds and extra off field earning potential and the Cats unique location - are the most likely to attract players and thus they become even more likely to attract players because success is the biggest recruiting pull of them all.

If the other factors were as big as people think, Vic clubs would do better on average - they don't. For a while now there's been more Vic clubs at the bottom than at the top.

Easier player movement has made the Vic clubs more extreme in terms of good or bad and thus both flags and spoons are more likely to end up in Victoria.

Having said all of that, the Northern academy recruiting advantage isn't close to hitting it's peak yet - even if it was shut down immediately. The first ones taken over a decade ago - Heeney and Andrews - are now at their peak and there's been a heap more taken since. Northern clubs are going to have an awesome era, which means they'll also increasingly be able to recruit top players - as success is a massive draw card - and if anyone thinks that Sydney or Qld is a massive detractor as a location for Vics to move to - they're wrong.

I agree with most of your post when it comes to free agency.

It does favour certain Victorian sides. MCG tenants specifically like Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond and Melbourne, especially if they are good.

Free agency didn't help the Docklands tenants.

North Melbourne have been bottom 2 for 5 or 6 years in a row. They are slowly improving.

But one example was McKay left North Melbourne as a free agent to Essendon, a tenant at the MCG.

Saints are trading in players. Don't get me wrong, Nasiah Wanganeen Milera is a good player. But 2 million dollars a year is a lot of money. I wished he signed for 4 years extension rather than 2. That would of been a benefit to both club and player.

Saints won't be nervous and keep him. Let him at least do his 8 years at the saints, become a free agent.

 

[Freomaniac]

And that's the thing, isn't it? Behind the Vic bias stuff is this assumption is that we all band together when, in fact, we have century-old rivalries. e.g. If the Cats can't win it, a West Coast five peat is fine if it means watching Essendon suffer.

Well I am a dockers fan. But I live in South Australia.

I don't go on bay 13 to engage in WA poo fights.

Mind you, it was very bad 10 years ago. Bay 13 was constantly flooded with South Australian poo fights.

But I just found it hilarious that eagles fans cheered hard for the suns in the Elim final vs Freo.

Eagles didn't have a lot to cheer about this season. They posted a 1 win and 22 loss record this season

 

[doppleganger]

I have to disagree about both SA sides struggling to win their 1st finals in finals series. Or it isn't as bad as you think.

What does the first final have to do with anything? Who cares if they won an EF or not?

Top 2 finishes are the focus, this is when they should be really strong teams and progress through to a GF due to having two home ground advantage games against inferior opponents..

Of the 12 times (which is almost the same number as all 8 Melbourne teams combined with 13) that SA teams have finished top 2, currently only 3 times they have won through to the GF (Port 04, 07 and Ade 17).

Compared to Melbourne based teams, of the 13 times a Melbourne team has finished top 2, it is only Richmond in 18 (losing to another Melbourne team Collingwood) and Melbourne in 22 who failed to make it through to the GF.

Why are the SA teams so frequently finishing top 2 after H&A and then losing to "lower ranked" opponents at home in finals?

 

[sr36]

I agree with most of your post when it comes to free agency.

It does favour certain Victorian sides. MCG tenants specifically like Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond and Melbourne, especially if they are good.

Free agency didn't help the Docklands tenants.

North Melbourne have been bottom 2 for 5 or 6 years in a row. They are slowly improving.

But one example was McKay left North Melbourne as a free agent to Essendon, a tenant at the MCG.

Saints are trading in players. Don't get me wrong, Nasiah Wanganeen Milera is a good player. But 2 million dollars a year is a lot of money. I wished he signed for 4 years extension rather than 2. That would of been a benefit to both club and player.

Saints won't be nervous and keep him. Let him at least do his 8 years at the saints, become a free agent.

It's not about MCG tenants. The big recruitment/retention factors are: likelihood of success, location, money and relationships. The only MCG relevant bit is that the Pies have the added advantage of massive crowds. Meanwhile the Cats have their unique surf coast location as an attraction.

Pies, Cats, Hawks and Dogs are the Vic clubs to be at at the moment as they're seen as the ones most likely to be successful in the near future. So overall they're going to attract and retain their staff more cheaply than the other Vic clubs. So you end up with a Vic footy landscape of good teams and shit teams because good teams are far more desirable to play or work at.

Saints are having a massive splurge. If it is successful it might get them in a position where they become one of the good teams that can retain and recruit staff more cheaply in the future. If it doesn't work they remain stuck where they are or below - it's worth a crack, I think. NWM was the right move - the recruits - I think they're the wrong blokes, but time will tell.

 

[Macca180]

Why are the SA teams so frequently finishing top 2 after H&A and then losing to "lower ranked" opponents at home in finals?

Nice favourable draw.

Finals different beast.
Still think Crows will bounce back this week then get a touch up from Geelong.

 

[doppleganger]

It's not about MCG tenants.

The tenant stuff is just another red herring

Tenant Clubs - Marvel Stadium

Marvel Stadium is a multi-purpose venue designed to cater to major sporting, entertainment, corporate or casual events - celebrate in true Melbourne style.

www.marvelstadium.com.au

Essendon and Carlton chose the no home ground route by being co-tenants. It is no real surprise why they have been poor in the 21st century, as they don't actually have a home ground. They just play a glut of neutral games at familiar venues.

 

[doppleganger]

Nice favourable draw.

Agree, they have a favourable H&A fixture every year due to their ground familiarity advantage over their opponent.

Finals different beast.

Yep, the best team tends to win finals.

Despite the SA teams being "higher ranked" they have rarely been the best team.

Still think Crows will bounce back this week then get a touch up from Geelong.

You would think so, it is 1st playing 8th based on H&A ladder rankings...and 1st have home ground advantage.

 

[Freomaniac]

What does the first final have to do with anything? Who cares if they won an EF or not?

Top 2 finishes are the focus, this is when they should be really strong teams and progress through to a GF due to having two home ground advantage games against inferior opponents..

Of the 12 times (which is almost the same number as all 8 Melbourne teams combined with 13) that SA teams have finished top 2, currently only 3 times they have won through to the GF (Port 04, 07 and Ade 17).

Compared to Melbourne based teams, of the 13 times a Melbourne team has finished top 2, it is only Richmond in 18 (losing to another Melbourne team Collingwood) and Melbourne in 22 who failed to make it through to the GF.

Why are the SA teams so frequently finishing top 2 after H&A and then losing to "lower ranked" opponents at home in finals?

Bloody hell you are a funny person lol

You don't spend 6 or 7 years in a row of no finals then win the flag.

If that's the case then crows would of dominated and not choked in this year's finals.

Brisbane finished 5th last season and won the flag.

 

[doppleganger]

Bloody hell you are a funny person lol

You don't spend 6 or 7 years in a row of no finals then win the flag.

Who was talking about winning the flag?
Just the simple task of a supposedly top2 H&A team winning a final where they have home ground advantage over a "lower ranked" opponent.

Gold Coast were able to go and win their first ever final...but they also lucked out to be playing against a team who enjoyed an SA style 13 games at their home ground, 11 with a large ground familiarity advantage in H&A.

If that's the case then crows would of dominated and not choked in this year's finals.
Brisbane finished 5th last season and won the flag.

So did the crows before ground rationalisation came in.

But in the 21st century SA teams have no problem finishing top2 after H&A, but can't win home finals despite also being the "higher ranked" team.

 

[Freomaniac]

Nice favourable draw.

Finals different beast.
Still think Crows will bounce back this week then get a touch up from Geelong.

You also had a soft draw in 2012 too.

I said this on the crows board. I predicted 5th spot, a home Elim final win and then a semi final exit.

Most crows fans would of taken that at the start of the season.

Crows had a round 15 bye and then the fixture started to open up for the crows.

I hope for your sake the crows win on Friday night

 

[Mr Meow]

Cats have been very good with mature age recruits, recognising that they might not get a decade plus out of them but they will be better someone else on their list or through the draft in a role for a few years.

Surely there is a couple of guys running around in the state leagues that will cost WCE next to nothing but will improve their results for a few years while they are rebuilding with high-end draft picks.

If there are, Geelong are more likely to pick them up on the cheap like Tim Kelly and Lawsom Humphries.

 

[Macca180]

You also had a soft draw in 2012 too.

I said this on the crows board. I predicted 5th spot, a home Elim final win and then a semi final exit.

Most crows fans would of taken that at the start of the season.

Crows had a round 15 bye and then the fixture started to open up for the crows.

I hope for your sake the crows win on Friday night

Right.

But my point is sometimes teams with soft draws finish higher than they should.

Then finals come around and you really see.

As for us and the Crows I can´t see either getting near Geelong or Pies and Crows are just lucky they have Hawthorn at home coming off Friday break going from Sydney, Melbourne to Adelaide.

 

[Freomaniac]

Right.

But my point is sometimes teams with soft draws finish higher than they should.

Then finals come around and you really see.

As for us and the Crows I can´t see either getting near Geelong or Pies and Crows are just lucky they have Hawthorn at home coming off Friday break going from Sydney, Melbourne to Adelaide.

Sorry I thought you were Crows fan.

Brisbane has had a solid season.

Interesting that it's a Queensland derby in a semi final. Brisbane has got injuries.

 

[Freomaniac]

I still don't think that WA is producing the talent it should and I think there is reason behind it.
Originally some decades ago the WAFL clubs invested heavily in talent in all their zones. They don't do this anymore as firstly they don't have the funds to do it and secondly they get virtually nothing for producing AFL talent.

So the question is why don't the Eagles and Dockers put in to produce the talent and the answer again comes back to why should they if the talent leaves WA and we get no access really to them.

This is why I am a believer that the best two players in WA each year should go to the WA clubs, the best 10 players in Victoria go the Vic clubs, same with SA, Qld and NSW.
Then after that you have the draft.
This makes AFL clubs dig in and produce talent for some gain. (Won't happen of course)

WA in my opinion should be having on average 8-15 players taken in the first two rounds of the draft yearly. Yet in reality we are averaging around 2-4.

It is very poor for a footy state. But again as I say there are reasons why.

You got a very good point about WA locals being produced to AFL standard draftees.

I mean the 2024 AFL draft. I looked at that draft, specifically the 1st 23 players taken.

Sid Draper was taken by the crows early. Eagles got Ben Allans son Bo Allen. Gold Coast grabbed a local academy picks in the 1st round. The rest of the 23 blokes? All 20 of them recruited in the Tac cup or under 19 talent league or country Victoria league or what ever league it's called now.

AFL doesn't care about talent being produced in the SANFL or WAFL. AFL cares about one thing.... Money.

But as you said.... WAFL used to put in the effort of producing local talent.

They don't anymore. Why? Again as you said, they don't have the funds to do it and AFL doesn't hand out cash to the WAFL for any draftees, even if they did, it's little money the AFL gives.

The AFL can justify it if it's VFL or the Vic country league....

If you want a good example, go look at the eagles flag sides.

1992 and 1994, virtually all of them were WA locals.

2006, most of them were WA locals, a few Victorians like Judd and Braun, a couple of SA blokes in Beau Waters and Sam Butler.

2018 was similar to 2006. Half of them were solid WA locals. A few Victorians and a decent serviceable bloke from SA in Shannon Hurn.

 

[garlic munchers]

But I just found it hilarious that eagles fans cheered hard for the suns in the Elim final vs Freo.

Eagles didn't have a lot to cheer about this season. They posted a 1 win and 22 loss record this season

Good on you for finding humour after dropping one of the best things in life:



Love your resilience!

 

[Freomaniac]

Good on you for finding humour after dropping one of the best things in life:

View attachment 2423620

Love your resilience!

I live in South Australia by the way.

I was gutted we lost to gold coast suns in that Elim final. I didn't "melt" over it.

I wasn't too angry or upset either or wanted the coach to be sacked after the game.

Similar feeling to Port Adelaide after the 2017 Elim final loss to your mob. We should of won but let it slip out of our fingers

 

[sr36]

I live in South Australia by the way.

I was gutted we lost to gold coast suns in that Elim final. I didn't "melt" over it.

I wasn't too angry or upset either or wanted the coach to be sacked after the game.

Similar feeling to Port Adelaide after the 2017 Elim final loss to your mob. We should of won but let it slip out of our fingers

I think you and I might be the only two people in South Australia who don't want to sack our coach after every final's defeat.

 

[joe444]

If there are, Geelong are more likely to pick them up on the cheap like Tim Kelly and Lawsom Humphries.

Every time WCE (premiers 2018) cry poor I am reminded of the fact that if they just looked in their own backyard properly, they'd be fine.

Harry Taylor, Joel Corey, Mitch Duncan, Tim Kelly, Lawson Humphries, Shannon Neale ... I mean, sheesh.

 

[garlic munchers]

Every time WCE (premiers 2018) cry poor I am reminded of the fact that if they just looked in their own backyard properly, they'd be fine.

Harry Taylor (retired 2020 - WC traded in Josh Kennedy the same year he was drafted), Joel Corey (WTF he retired 2013, picked at 8 before WC had a pick which was 11, and WC picked Darren Glass), Mitch Duncan (yep WC missed him but did draft All-Australian Brad Sheppard before him, who would have had the 2018 premiership but for a hamstring tear), Tim Kelly (yep missed him but got Liam and OA in that draft, both serviceable and OA will be getting us pick 2 in this draft) , Lawson Humphries (yep, missed but we did get Harley Reid and Archer Reid in that draft who for 203cms is developing nicely for a 2023 draftee), Shannon Neale (2020 draft, Tim Kelly trade meant we didn't have a pick before Neale at 33) ... I mean, sheesh.

I mean, sheesh.

Plenty of reasons why WC have created this shitty situation, but claiming in part that we are where we are because we missed drafting Joel Corey (who retired in 2013) and Harry Taylor is a tad bewildering and lets be honest, we are 'crying poor' for the first time since 1987.

It's not like we are perennial beggars saying to the AFL, please sir, can I have some more?

Rather when we are supposedly one of the worst ever sides in AFL history, we are still taking the smallest part of the pie to which we contribute a very significant part:



I think you also may be a little tone deaf if you ignore that fact that the Cats have been able to bring in superstars from other clubs, which is a large part of their current success.

All power to them for creating this culture that attracts your Jeremy Cameron and Bailey Smiths, but gee you sure would want to win it this year.