Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[sr36]

Freo have had a number of WA-native players leave over the last few years (Hogan, B.Hill, Acres, Lobb, Henry, Logue, Hamling just off the top of my head). Weirdly our success rate of retaining Victorians has been much better. And just in the past year alone we failed to woo Warner or Kozzy.

Failed to woo? Are you seriously counting them.

A few of those you did lose are ones you'd previously poached back who then realised the grass wasn't greener.

You were a battling team - the biggest player drain is from ordinary teams to good teams. Go home is obviously a factor for many, but is also often secondary. Players enjoy success. Good teams don't lose many that they want to keep. Battling teams lose a lot.

It was the go home factor that made Hogan, Hill, lobb and your good current ones return when you were a middling or below team - if they were heading home to Victoria - they wouldn't have headed to a team where you guys were at - unless you were paying way overs.

 

[sr36]

The Eagles went All-in on Tim Kelly, only for the club to miss out on multiple first round picks during the start of their rebuild. Combine that with repeated long term injuries, bad trading and actively pushing out their captain, no wonder they are in a bad way.

The covid hub seemed to decimate WCE. Whilst the Vic players got relative freedom in the hub, it was probably a prison for those whose friends and family were in WA living free.

 

[Senor M]

The covid hub seemed to decimate WCE. Whilst the Vic players got relative freedom in the hub, it was probably a prison for those whose friends and family were in WA living free.

The Eagles were sooking about the COVID hubs only weeks in, at a time when the Eastern states were open to one another in June 2020.

Adam Simpson's complaining & their victim mentality after only a few weeks was what caused their mental fragility rather than the COVID hubs

 

[sr36]

The Eagles were sooking about the COVID hubs only weeks in, at a time when the Eastern states were open to one another in June 2020.

Adam Simpson's complaining & their victim mentality after only a few weeks was what caused their mental fragility rather than the COVID hubs

They seemed to handle it really badly. iz htink the covid hubs would msake a good documentary.

 

[chaosball32]

Picking the most successful three clubs in the past 20 years to compare to the result of four clubs is deliberately cherry picking.

The same way comparing Carlton, Essendon, North Melbourne & Melbourne only making a combined 1 Grand Final across the same time period.

Instead of making it all about "VicBias" it is worth noting that all four of the WA/SA clubs have made bad decisions along the way that have led to their own struggles.

The Eagles went All-in on Tim Kelly, only for the club to miss out on multiple first round picks during the start of their rebuild. Combine that with repeated long term injuries, bad trading and actively pushing out their captain, no wonder they are in a bad way.

The Crows are the homophobic club that is still living in the aftermath of Collective Minds.

Port stuck with Hinkley for way too long, consistently have a decent side that chokes on the big stage.

It's not "VicBias" it's poor club management, no different than Essendon, Carlton, North & Melbourne

I have said multiple times WA/SA clubs have had mismanagement as most clubs do, most notably West Coast. It’s about the fact it’s harder for these clubs to bounce back from hence much less room for error.

Essendon, Carlton and Melbourne cheated the system and paid the price for it and you are trying to draw some false equivalency to the WA/SA clubs, it’s not the same. At all.

And even then Melbourne eventually got a flag out of it.

 

[chaosball32]

Failed to woo? Are you seriously counting them.

A few of those you did lose are ones you'd previously poached back who then realised the grass wasn't greener.

You were a battling team - the biggest player drain is from ordinary teams to good teams. Go home is obviously a factor for many, but is also often secondary. Players enjoy success. Good teams don't lose many that they want to keep. Battling teams lose a lot.

It was the go home factor that made Hogan, Hill, lobb and your good current ones return when you were a middling or below team - if they were heading home to Victoria - they wouldn't have headed to a team where you guys were at - unless you were paying way overs.

Kozzy was pretty much a Docker before the mega-deal Melbourne offered so yes.

Hogan joined GWS (who finished 10th the year before)

B.Hill joined St Kilda (who finished 14th the year before)

Acres joined Carlton (who finished 9th the year before)

etc etc

It’s not about success, it’s about money. These clubs were able to offer better deals because the potential fallout is not as significant as it would be at a WA or SA club who have less margin for error.

West Coast paid the big bucks for Tim Kelly, it didn’t work out, and now look at the position they are in.

 

[Senor M]

I have said multiple times WA/SA clubs have had mismanagement as most clubs do, most notably West Coast. It’s about the fact it’s harder for these clubs to bounce back from hence much less room for error.

Essendon, Carlton and Melbourne cheated the system and paid the price for it and you are trying to draw some false equivalency to the WA/SA clubs, it’s not the same. At all.

And even then Melbourne eventually got a flag out of it.

I'm not trying to draw some false equivalency, I'm suggesting that your claim is biased, flawed, and not an authentic discussion of the AFL.

The WA/SA clubs aren't as well managed as the Cats, Hawks, Swans & Lions. Using those four clubs as evidence of #VICBIAS (especially when two of the four are north of the Barassi) is an absurd statement that you're trying to defend with whataboutism

 

[chaosball32]

I'm not trying to draw some false equivalency, I'm suggesting that your claim is biased, flawed, and not an authentic discussion of the AFL.

The WA/SA clubs aren't as well managed as the Cats, Hawks, Swans & Lions. Using those four clubs as evidence of #VICBIAS (especially when two of the four are north of the Barassi) is an absurd statement that you're trying to defend with whataboutism

Again, if you actually read, I’ve said multiple times it’s more of an EAST COAST bias nowadays. Last time I checked Sydney, Brisbane and Gold Coast are situated on the east coast.

The preferential treatment of Victorian teams (traditionalism) and QLD/NSW teams (trying to grow the game in that market) is blatant, but if you want to keep chalking down one premiership between two footballing states in 20 years as mismanagement and “choking” and keep resorting to false equivalencies whenever you have no retort then there is no use continuing the discussion.

 

[sr36]

Kozzy was pretty much a Docker before the mega-deal Melbourne offered so yes.

Hogan joined GWS (who finished 10th the year before)

B.Hill joined St Kilda (who finished 14th the year before)

Acres joined Carlton (who finished 9th the year before)

etc etc

It’s not about success, it’s about money. These clubs were able to offer better deals because the potential fallout is not as significant as it would be at a WA or SA club who have less margin for error.

West Coast paid the big bucks for Tim Kelly, it didn’t work out, and now look at the position they are in.

Money is obviosly one of hte other drivers for player movement. The vast majority who leave for money, leave from unsuccessful clubs and they do often go to mediocre teams, because good teams don't overpay. The low teams have to overpay them - thus low teams salary caps don't go as far - particularly in Victoria with 9 other teams copeting if the player is valuable. With go home recruits to WA this isn't as much the case - there's only two teams competing for them. There's no way that a player like Liam Baker would have even considered North Melbourne if he was returing to play in Victoria.

Regardless of where you are on the ladder, you are in a much better position in terms of recruiting and retention than the Vic teams in the bottom half.

 

[sr36]

Again, if you actually read, I’ve said multiple times it’s more of an EAST COAST bias nowadays. Last time I checked Sydney, Brisbane and Gold Coast are situated on the east coast.

And if Adelaide do improve and win the flag, they'll be included within the bias. Meanwhile, since Wa teams joined the comp, a proportional number of flags have headed to WA. And WCE are one of the only teams to rise to a flag with 3 entirely different playing groups.

 

[doppleganger]

Again, if you actually read, I’ve said multiple times it’s more of an EAST COAST bias nowadays. Last time I checked Sydney, Brisbane and Gold Coast are situated on the east coast.

Lets be real about it.

It is EAST COAST NON MELBOURNE bias.

Of the Melbourne based teams, only Richmond and Collingwood have any success.

WB, StK, Ess, Carl, NM, Melbourne they are perennial struggles.

Geelong, Tassie Hawks, Sydney, Brisbane and GWS consistently in finals and playing for flags. And it now looks like Gold Coast will join them as a power.

Meanwhile the Melbourne based clubs
Richmond are back to being a basket case
North are horrible
Essendon, Carlton and Melbourne are in no man's land
StK have sold the farm to try and make finals
WB are seeing stars walk out
Pies have some cliff coming

If you want to be successful in the AFL, don't play in Melbourne.

 

[ReturningHawk]

Again, if you actually read, I’ve said multiple times it’s more of an EAST COAST bias nowadays. Last time I checked Sydney, Brisbane and Gold Coast are situated on the east coast.

Explanation 1: Vicbias has undergone metamorphosis and consumed more states in its unquenchable thirst for more bias.

Explanation 2: You lost to Gold Coast at home.

 

[doppleganger]

And if Adelaide do improve and win the flag, they'll be included within the bias. Meanwhile, since Wa teams joined the comp, a proportional number of flags have headed to WA. And WCE are one of the only teams to rise to a flag with 3 entirely different playing groups.

Adelaide and Port have combined for 11 top 2 finishes after H&A season in the 21st century.

The 8 Melbourne based teams - Carl, Coll, Ess, Melbourne, North, Rich, StK, WB - have combined for only 9.

Not our fault that SA clubs get given advantageous H&A fixture to only then shit the bed in undeserving SA finals.

Are the WA wowsers finally catching on that it ain't the Melbourne clubs they should be sooking about?

 

[Senor M]

Again, if you actually read, I’ve said multiple times it’s more of an EAST COAST bias nowadays. Last time I checked Sydney, Brisbane and Gold Coast are situated on the east coast.

The preferential treatment of Victorian teams (traditionalism) and QLD/NSW teams (trying to grow the game in that market) is blatant, but if you want to keep chalking down one premiership between two footballing states in 20 years as mismanagement and “choking” and keep resorting to false equivalencies whenever you have no retort then there is no use continuing the discussion.

"False equivalencies," how?

You listed four teams that made five Grand finals combined in 20 years. I listed four teams that made 1 Grand Final in 20 years.

There is bias across the league toward different clubs at every stage, but to suggest that the four SA/WA clubs don't have advantages is disingenuous.

Gather Round favours the two SA teams, providing them with an extra home game throughout the season.

The Eagles have just been gifted a Pick 2 compo pick for an injured key forward whose only kicked more than 30 goals in a season once.

The AFL ticked off on the worst trade of all time when they were given Pick 2 for Lachie Weller

 

[sr36]

Adelaide and Port have combined for 11 top 2 finishes after H&A season in the 21st century.

The 8 Melbourne based teams - Carl, Coll, Ess, Melbourne, North, Rich, StK, WB - have combined for only 9.

Not our fault that SA clubs get given advantageous H&A fixture to only then shit the bed in undeserving SA finals.

Are the WA wowsers finally catching on that it ain't the Melbourne clubs they should be sooking about?

The incoming Northern era has been writ large for a few years, but rather than admitting that they have been barking up the wrong tree, they're going to pivot to East Coast bias. I wonder how they're going to pivot regarding their travel theories when the team that travels the most often and the 3rd largest distances - Gold Coast - have a really strong period. WA can pivot to time zones and directions of travel (which is at least plausible), but SA's excuses are already blown out of the water by Brisbane.

 

[doppleganger]

The incoming Northern era has been writ large for a few years, but rather than admitting that they have been barking up the wrong tree, they're going to pivot to East Coast bias.

Sydney, Brisbane, Geelong the teams with unique home grounds and advantageous lifestyles have been doing well for the 21st century (apart from the post crazy Voss era when Brisbane self sabotaged themselves).

I wonder how they're going to pivot regarding their travel theories when the team that travels the most often and the 3rd largest distances - Gold Coast - have a really strong period.

The WA wowsers will do the usual - travel doesn't count if you are the home team line, to explain away Gold Coast in Darwin and North playing in Bunbury (still advantage to North according to the WA wowsers).

 

[go_the_dockers]

Not sure how any of those excuses apply to Freo choking in the 2013 Grand Final.

Home Grand Final

• Hawthorn played 6 home games @ the MCG during the 2013 H&A season.
• How many home games did Freo play @ Subiaco that year (HINT: it was more than 6)

Father Son
-- Hawthorn didn't have any father-sons in the squad at that stage

Free Agents (had only started the season before)

• Hawthorn - Jonathan Simpkin ( A delisted free agent)
• Fremantle - Danyle Pearce ( highly rated at Port)

"Marquee time slots"
-- not sure what time of day or week impacts your ability to win games of football; but if you're going to complain about it, explain to me how to make Thursday night football work in Perth when WA fans complain the games starts too early to attend.

Marquee time slots = extra player sponsorship, which is free salary cap.

If one clubs players can get 5 million in sponsorship, and the other club can only get 3 million then first club virtually gets 2 million in extra salary cap space.

Of course the clubs with more marquee time slots will get more sponsorship, and only the big Vic clubs get good marquee games.

You forget Gunston, Lake, Burgoyne - this has been a huge impact. The ability to attract other clubs players. We can only target WA players, Vic clubs can attract 75% of players and when they are in the top 4 with a young list players line up to join.

Look at this year with Adelaide and Hawks. Both similar lists, but Hawks had their pick of Petracca and Merrett. Adelaide could not get either.

How does the number of games played at Subiaco impact a home grand final ??

 

[go_the_dockers]

The incoming Northern era has been writ large for a few years, but rather than admitting that they have been barking up the wrong tree, they're going to pivot to East Coast bias. I wonder how they're going to pivot regarding their travel theories when the team that travels the most often and the 3rd largest distances - Gold Coast - have a really strong period. WA can pivot to time zones and directions of travel (which is at least plausible), but SA's excuses are already blown out of the water by Brisbane.

There are 4 groups of clubs.

Big Vic Clubs - Big Advantage
NSW/QLD - Big Advantage
Small Vic clubs - Disadvantaged to some extent
SA and WA - Massively disadvantaged

 

[go_the_dockers]

Failed to woo? Are you seriously counting them.

A few of those you did lose are ones you'd previously poached back who then realised the grass wasn't greener.

You were a battling team - the biggest player drain is from ordinary teams to good teams. Go home is obviously a factor for many, but is also often secondary. Players enjoy success. Good teams don't lose many that they want to keep. Battling teams lose a lot.

It was the go home factor that made Hogan, Hill, lobb and your good current ones return when you were a middling or below team - if they were heading home to Victoria - they wouldn't have headed to a team where you guys were at - unless you were paying way overs.

Give us 5 father sons, or academy players who are rated as top 10 picks for junk picks and we will have success.

Maybe, give us 15 marquee time slots a year and players will ensure the extra sponsorship and want to stay.

Yes, players chase success but it is not an even playing field.

 

[go_the_dockers]

There is bias across the league toward different clubs at every stage, but to suggest that the four SA/WA clubs don't have advantages is disingenuous.

What ****ign advantages?


Marquee time slots - negative
Academy - Negative
Percentage of home ground talent on list - Under 40%
Father son - negative
Home grand final - negative
AFL introduces a NGA system for Vic clubs, conveniently forgets WA and SA clubs.

SA and WA clubs are seriously screwed over.

Then if you consider the WA player development, it is not even close.

Seriously, how the AFL gets away with funding TAC cup development to the tune of 10's of million of dollars, but does not fund SA or WA development near as much is embarrassing.


It is no wonder QLD is out producing WA for players in the top 30 of the draft for a number of years.

2021 was WA's last good draft, for a state that used to produce 20% plus of players in the AFL, that is dropping massively especially at the top end of the draft.

 

[sr36]

What ****ign advantages?


AFL introduces a NGA system for Vic clubs, conveniently forgets WA and SA clubs.

What are you talking about: the NGAs all came in it at the same time. And Freo got one of the first highly rated ones.

 

[go_the_dockers]

What are you talking about: the NGAs all came in it at the same time. And Freo got one of the first highly rated ones.

What was the point, when all we got was a small remote area and Vic clubs got all of Tas, Vic and NT.

Another one to ensure Vic clubs are advantaged.

and then we finally got the metro region, but only after pick 40.

It was a great example of the VFL screwing over SA and WA clubs

 

[kirky]

Adelaide and Port have combined for 11 top 2 finishes after H&A season in the 21st century.

The 8 Melbourne based teams - Carl, Coll, Ess, Melbourne, North, Rich, StK, WB - have combined for only 9.

Not our fault that SA clubs get given advantageous H&A fixture to only then shit the bed in undeserving SA finals.

Are the WA wowsers finally catching on that it ain't the Melbourne clubs they should be sooking about?

Your third point - “advantageous H&A fixture and undeserving SA finals”.

Please explain.

 

[sr36]

That is bull shit and you know it.

SA and WA clubs got the NGA 12 months after the Vic clubs, and it excluded metropolitan areas.

Then we got metropolitan but only after pick 40. We were screwed over at every chance the AFL could

It excluded metropolitan areas in an effort to have the NGA academies equal in terms of numbers of eligible kids. No matching access after pick 40 applied to all NGA academies - not just SA and WA. You then got access to metroplitan areas as no one cared that it gave you academies with far greater potential when it didn't include the top kids.

As it stands, in comparision to Vic teams, WA teams have academies with an average of 9 times the number of potential Aboriginal recruits and 7 times the number of potential international recruits. It's a significant advantage. Made more advantageous by the respective wealth of the WA clubs, which is a product of the distribution of clubs per state. SA much greater potential in their academies as well - but WA academies in particular should become gold mines - if the rules remain and clubs are well run - every second Aboriginal kid from WA tied to Fremantle - that's gold if the state can sort out their talent pathways.

 

[go_the_dockers]

It excluded metropolitan areas in an effort to have the NGA academies equal in terms of numbers of eligible kids. No matching access after pick 40 applied to all NGA academies - not just SA and WA. You then got access to metroplitan areas as no one cared that it gave you academies with far greater potential when it didn't include the top kids.

As it stands, in comparision to Vic teams, WA teams have academies with an average of 9 times the number of potential Aboriginal recruits and 7 times the number of potential international recruits. It's a significant advantage. Made more advantageous by the respective wealth of the WA clubs, which is a product of the distribution of clubs per state. SA much greater potential in their academies as well - but WA academies in particular should become gold mines - if the rules remain and clubs are well run - every second Aboriginal kid from WA tied to Fremantle - that's gold if the state can sort out their talent pathways.

So instead they screwed the WA and SA clubs over, instead of giving them a small advantage.

So 1 more advantage to the vic clubs, to add to 20 other advantages they already have.

Nothing to see here, as long as the Vic clubs plus the NSW and QLD are successful, then everything is good.

No wonder WA player development is a pile of shit, when it has been under resourced for 10 years

WA, SA clubs make play for indigenous talent

Clubs hope to extend their access into metropolitan areas

www.afl.com.au