Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[Scotland]

Agree that we underachieved, though. The 90s was a hard era and I don't think we got the travel/recovery balance right. Should've won 91 after such a dominant season. MCG rule killed us in 96 and we blew a great start in 99.

Worsfold, Waterman, Heady, Sumich, Turnbull, Evans, Hynes, Pyke, Langdon all finished up 29 or younger. A few others like McKenna, Jakovich, Lewis etc. really tailed off their last year or few years.

In recent years we've had Glass and Cox go on to 33, Embley 32, Priddis is nearly 32 (started late), Kennedy/Hurn 20 and still firing. Pav played about 1,000 games for Freo and they've had a couple go on to 33/34 also so I think longevity of WA players has definitely improved.

For those playing at home Sam Mitchell is the oldest player (at the time of playing) to ever represent WC.

 

[Kram]

Plus we were on drugs and had umpiring assistance as a favoured franchise. We should have won it every year since 1987 really.

From memory it was bloody hard for them to get a free kick in Victoria early on. Also the odd bit of ridiculous scheduling playing away for 2 weeks and maybe even 3 a couple of times.

 

[Kwality]

Agree with this.

What year were the playing lists made equal - in 1987 the Eagles had 35, the rest of the clubs 53.

Starting off 18 players less, they had to get more at some point.

 

[Scotland]

From memory it was bloody hard for them to get a free kick in Victoria early on. Also the odd bit of ridiculous scheduling playing away for 2 weeks and maybe even 3 a couple of times.

We got murdered playing at Vic suburban grounds back in the days before we became a favoured franchise and the great conspiracy kicked in. Free kick differential for 11 away games in 1989 was -106. Can you imagine the tears coming out of Plugger35 and friends if this happened to St Kilda (FTR their overall FF-FA record last year was 370-394) today?

Six games on the road in a row in 1990. Bears at Carrara, Cats in Geelong then 4 finals at Waverley (one a replay).

1991 was all away finals after losing first up from 1st. 1992 was home EF (4th vs 5th), away SF (vs 1st) then GF with the final 6. Bizarre system had Geelong playing Footscray and West Coast twice in the space of 4 weeks. 1994 was the first home QF and home PF then GF with the original version of the final 8. 1996 was blatant rape. 4th beats 5th then travels to Victoria to play 6th who lost to 3rd. 1999 wasn't much better with 5th beating 4th then traveling to Victoria to play 6th who lost to 3rd.

 

[Scotland]

What year were the playing lists made equal - in 1987 the Eagles had 35, the rest of the clubs 53.

Starting off 18 players less, they had to get more at some point.

IIRC ours went up while others went down with the phasing out of the reserves and U/19s setup.

 

[footyfan1978]

Probably should have snagged a third, but it's extremely difficult to stay up for a sustained period.

Probably should have won 1991, 92 and 93 flags.
Got stage fright in 1991 I suspect and 1993 I cannot remember why you fell a little but 1993 was an incredibly even season and somehow my own club and Essendon made the grand final even though I did not really think we were the 2 best sides. North best was probably better and an experienced Eagles side by then should have been in their prime. On the flipside your best was behind one or two clubs but you won the flag anyway in 1994.

 

[FootyJunkie]

Probably should have won 1991, 92 and 93 flags.
Got stage fright in 1991 I suspect and 1993 I cannot remember why you fell a little but 1993 was an incredibly even season and somehow my own club and Essendon made the grand final even though I did not really think we were the 2 best sides. North best was probably better and an experienced Eagles side by then should have been in their prime. On the flipside your best was behind one or two clubs but you won the flag anyway in 1994.

North were the real stand out side for season 93 and could have stolen the flag that year... just ran out of puff towards the end, the new found success was a new feeling for the club after several years of playing ordinary (first finals appearance since '87), it was perhaps just too much too soon

West Coast were on a bit of a flag hangover, dropping a few games at home, but lifted for the first final at Waverley

 

[FootyJunkie]

1991 was all away finals after losing first up from 1st.

yep, the AFL only allowed one non Vic final for the first week of the finals for the Final 6 (1991-93) as it could be staged in place of a night final (which was still a controversial topic that was given a lot of resistance to back then)... all finals after Week 1 were to be held in Melbourne, with the MCC contract effectively putting it in writing from 1992. 1993 was the first finals series to feature 2 non Victorian sides... West Coast and Adelaide narrowly missed meeting each other in a Prelim that would have been played at the MCG regardless... hence the AFL "rushed" the introduction of the Final 8 in 1994 to give themselves some flexibility in the event of a non Vic side hosting a Prelim as they allowed any number of non Vic finals to take place in Weeks 1-3 as long as the MCC contract was still met

 

[Matchu]

The implication is that we were gifted success upon entry which is bullshit, and that were a state side competing against club sides, which is also bullshit.

It's been explained many times but the initial entry conditions were designed to prevent West Coast becoming a super team, not encourage it. The VFL and West Coast stumbled across the modern day premiership formula by accident.

Something else that has been posted many times...

1986 SOO reps signed to WC for 1987: Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson

1986 SOO reps not signed to WC for 1987: Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

Other WA players not signed to WC for 1987: Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis.

You keep coming back to this yet you completely dismiss the thread title. I think everyone appreciates the fact that West Coast had to build their list from nothing and that required them to recruit from the WAFL. Although exclusive access to the '85 U18 WA Teal Cup winning team was questionable, it was probably what happened after 1988 that people would dislike the most. I keep coming back to the title of the thread though - Was West Coast really a state team in the early 90s?

The reason we didn't sign guys like Gary Buckenara, Simon Beasley, the Krakouer brothers etc. is that we couldn't. You could make a super-team out of the above players, so the VFL enforced rules that meant that we could not - so we basically recruited from the WAFL Colts and created a super-team anyway.

The VFL didn't prevent the Eagles from signing Buckenara - it was the Victorian Supreme Court that dismissed their restraint of trade case against Hawthorn. West Coast tried to sign Buckenara, don't act like they didn't try to assemble a team of already established VFL stars who hailed from WA.

 

[Gazza Greatness]

From memory it was bloody hard for them to get a free kick in Victoria early on. Also the odd bit of ridiculous scheduling playing away for 2 weeks and maybe even 3 a couple of times.

Very true but same applied for visiting teams to Subi

 

[go you pups]

Agree that we underachieved, though. The 90s was a hard era and I don't think we got the travel/recovery balance right. Should've won 91 after such a dominant season. MCG rule killed us in 96 and we blew a great start in 99.

Worsfold, Waterman, Heady, Sumich, Turnbull, Evans, Hynes, Pyke, Langdon all finished up 29 or younger. A few others like McKenna, Jakovich, Lewis etc. really tailed off their last year or few years.

In recent years we've had Glass and Cox go on to 33, Embley 32, Priddis is nearly 32 (started late), Kennedy/Hurn 20 and still firing. Pav played about 1,000 games for Freo and they've had a couple go on to 33/34 also so I think longevity of WA players has definitely improved.

For those playing at home Sam Mitchell is the oldest player (at the time of playing) to ever represent WC.

MCG rule stuffed uz up in 1999 also


Imo Carlton don't play that years Grand Final if they had to play you guys at Subi

Then again, a lot of 5th-6th teams benefited under the McIntyre system in place at the time also.

 

[Kram]

Then again, a lot of 5th-6th teams benefited under the McIntyre system in place at the time also.

That finals system was beyond ****in stupid.

95% of the time 4v5 in W1 was going to be a meaningless game. Why the current (an very obvious) system wasn't used from the start is beyond me.

 

[go you pups]

That finals system was beyond ****in stupid.

95% of the time 4v5 in W1 was going to be a meaningless game. Why the current (an very obvious) system wasn't used from the start is beyond me.

The McIntyre 6 was even more flawed

It definitely helped West Coast win their first flag

Hypothetically, a 5th placed side could have made a grand final without needing to play a prelim if results went their way in week 1 with 3rd and 4th losing to 5th and 6th, all they then need to do is win the 2nd semi the next week against whoever won out of 1st and 2nd.


Inb4 Bulldogs only won because they were the only team to get the bye

 

[footyfan1978]

Inb4 Bulldogs only won because they were the only team to get the bye

Sydney had the bye too!!!!!!!

 

[Kram]

The McIntyre 6 was even more flawed

It definitely helped West Coast win their first flag

Hypothetically, a 5th placed side could have made a grand final without needing to play a prelim if results went their way in week 1 with 3rd and 4th losing to 5th and 6th, all they then need to do is win the 2nd semi the next week against whoever won out of 1st and 2nd.


Inb4 Bulldogs only won because they were the only team to get the bye

Was just gonna say the 6 was garbage particularly the 1st version. Although at least that had the excuse of 6 teams being a tough number to come up with something fair.

 

[Scotland]

You keep coming back to this yet you completely dismiss the thread title. I think everyone appreciates the fact that West Coast had to build their list from nothing and that required them to recruit from the WAFL. Although exclusive access to the '85 U18 WA Teal Cup winning team was questionable, it was probably what happened after 1988 that people would dislike the most. I keep coming back to the title of the thread though - Was West Coast really a state team in the early 90s?

And you keep harping on about this when the answer is, was and will always remain no. In 1991 and 1992 WC had more than half the representatives in the WA side, in every other year it's been fewer than half. If WC was a 'state team' then why was there a state team?

The VFL didn't prevent the Eagles from signing Buckenara - it was the Victorian Supreme Court that dismissed their restraint of trade case against Hawthorn. West Coast tried to sign Buckenara, don't act like they didn't try to assemble a team of already established VFL stars who hailed from WA.

Where have I argued that they didn't try? If WC could've started out with Rance at CHB, Beasley at FF, both Krakrouer brothers etc. they would have.

 

[Scotland]

The old finals systems were too complicated with ranked winners and losers. North beating Geelong in 1997 (7th vs 2nd) screwed everything up. North played us the following week in Melbourne (7th hosting 5th) and Geelong had to travel to Adelaide (4th hosting 2nd). The Bulldogs finished 3rd and beat 6th, then advanced straight to the prelim to play 4th.

I don't have an issue with a 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5 system but the one we had was s**t. The NBA playoffs are on now and they run it that way and it works fine. 1v8 & 4v5 on one half of the draw, 2v7 & 3v6 on the other. That system is designed to go 8-4-2 but the AFL want 8-6-4-2 for 4 weeks of finals. The current system is much fairer for that.

 

[Matchu]

Where have I argued that they didn't try? If WC could've started out with Rance at CHB, Beasley at FF, both Krakrouer brothers etc. they would have.

It's a pointless argument to make. It's like saying Adelaide weren't treated fairly when they entered the league because they weren't allowed to recruit an established VFL star from SA like Carlton's Stephen Kernahan. Sure, he was a South Australian but that doesn't necessarily mean he should have played for the Crows when they entered the league.

Based on the evidence produced in this thread, it's clear that West Coast were given very generous concessions when they entered the league and for many years thereafter. It's rich to hear an Eagles supporter trying to rewrite history and make it seem like WC were treated unfairly when, in actuality, quite the opposite occurred.

 

[Scotland]

Strange bump.

West Coast's concessions are deemed generous with the benefit of hindsight. I was a kid in the 80s but were people fearing a superteam based on being allowed to pick whatever we wanted from what was left of the WAFL? GWS' concessions for example have been talked about since they came in and they've only come good the last year or two, so it's not just hindsight heroes.

It's impossible to know what we would've done if the entry concessions were different. The 1980s were a different era in player recruitment, just look at the 1986 draft. It was really just a mechanism for existing VFL clubs to get players in from other states. We did what we did with what we had, and it turned out well.

 

[jatz14]

It's a pointless argument to make. It's like saying Adelaide weren't treated fairly when they entered the league because they weren't allowed to recruit an established VFL star from SA like Carlton's Stephen Kernahan. Sure, he was a South Australian but that doesn't necessarily mean he should have played for the Crows when they entered the league.

Based on the evidence produced in this thread, it's clear that West Coast were given very generous concessions when they entered the league and for many years thereafter. It's rich to hear an Eagles supporter trying to rewrite history and make it seem like WC were treated unfairly when, in actuality, quite the opposite occurred.

The concessions were not meant to be generous, they were meant to be stingy. The VFL did not consider a player to have made it unless they had made it in the VFL, so keeping a lot of the best WA players already in the VFL out of the Eagles was meant to keep them weak.

That they were able to get a lot of WAFL players who were really good, was in hindsight, generous.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[Matchu]

Peter Matera, Kemp, McIntosh and Heady after getting Glen Jakovich, Sumich, Turley, Pyke and Mitchell White was lucky timing to start up when all young around same time. So you certainly had some similar.

Very different era. Heady and Kemp were late picks anyway, but we had pre-draft selections to boost our list size to VFL/AFL standard over a period of years.

The AFL cocked up our entry concessions. Had they known how strong our young early 90s side was going to be they would've gone about things differently.

Finally an admission from your good self, Scotland.

 

[Dazzler9]

That finals system was beyond ****in stupid.

95% of the time 4v5 in W1 was going to be a meaningless game. Why the current (an very obvious) system wasn't used from the start is beyond me.

The same year the McIntyre 8 system came in (1994) the NRL (formerly ARL) initiated a top 8 system too. They were smart enough to adopt the current top 8 system though.

However, get this. When the AFL finally switched to its current format (year 2000?), the NRL switched to the McIntyre system. Cerrrrrrraazzzzyyyyyy!!!!! It's only been the past few seasons they've gone back again.

 

[kranky al]

From memory it was bloody hard for them to get a free kick in Victoria early on. Also the odd bit of ridiculous scheduling playing away for 2 weeks and maybe even 3 a couple of times.

I think the biggest was 6

 

[estibador]

In 1991 WA smashed Victoria 127 -51 with 15 of the WA squad being eagles players.

I don't know how anyone can argue that's not being a state team. That's a huge advantage over the other clubs where the state players are spread out evenly.

Ben Allan Guy McKenna Earl Spalding
Ashley McIntosh Glen Jakovich Dwayne Lamb
Peter Matera Mark Bairstow Chris Mainwaring
Nicky Winmar Craig Starcevich Brett Heady
Darren Bewick Peter Sumich Allen Jakovich
Paul Harding Craig Turley Don Pyke
Chris Waterman, Dean Kemp, Karl Langdon, Scott Watters

 

[estibador]

Coincidentally, 15 is the number of AFL players allowed to play WAFL finals. So now I think about, it's quite ironic that eagles fans denigrate Peel winning a WAFL premiership with a team of AFL players when they won their first two AFL premierships with a team of state players against club teams.