West Coast - where to now?

[Sweet Jesus]

Except hindsight is exactly what you have been using.

Did you read the post you responded to?

Any critique about past actions involves hindsight. That doesn't automatically invalidate the critique.

You've been accusing West Coast of not doing enough to fix its midfield.

And this is self-evidently true, isn't it?

The fact that the midfield remains the glaring weakness after several years is beyond dispute. That means they haven't done enough to fix it.

Which part of that do you disagree with?

When the many efforts they took to fix it are pointed out, and that they seemed like the right decisions at the time, you say they didn't work...i.e.hindsight.

You call it "hindsight". I call it a statement of fact. I am simply describing what has happened. It's woefully inadequate for you to keep insisting that this is somehow off-limits "because hindsight".

Disagree with the assessment if you like. But your insistence that any critique that involves hindsight is therefore unfair - I'm sorry but that's absurd.

If you want to argue that someone's getting the picks wrong, fine, but thats not what you've been arguing.

Again, I've been arguing that WC haven't done enough to fix the midfield, which has been the weakness for several years.

Do you disagree? Do you think they've done enough? Do you think nothing more could have been done?

Because whatever they've done hasn't had the desired effect.

 

[kranky al]

s**t our midfield has been the problem since 2008.

Nearly 10 years of pics and the best we have unearthed has been shuey.

Whos a grade but not elite.

 

[RookiePick]

Fyfe to gov

Clunk

Fyfe to gov

Clunk.

Rinse repeat.

Happens a fair bit in Derbys as it is.

 

[kranky al]

Happens a fair bit in Derbys as it is.

Farquin lol

 

[Sweet Jesus]

s**t our midfield has been the problem since 2008.

Nearly 10 years of pics and the best we have unearthed has been shuey.

Whos a grade but not elite.

Nah hindsight. It simply wasn't possible to do better than we have. Or something.

Am I doing it right, JackOutback?

 

[JackOutback]

Did you read the post you responded to?

Any critique about past actions involves hindsight. That doesn't automatically invalidate the critique.

And this is self-evidently true, isn't it?

The fact that the midfield remains the glaring weakness after several years is beyond dispute. That means they haven't done enough to fix it.

Which part of that do you disagree with?

You call it "hindsight". I call it a statement of fact. I am simply describing what has happened. It's woefully inadequate for you to keep insisting that this is somehow off-limits "because hindsight".

Disagree with the assessment if you like. But your insistence that any critique that involves hindsight is therefore unfair - I'm sorry but that's absurd.

Again, I've been arguing that WC haven't done enough to fix the midfield, which has been the weakness for several years.

Do you disagree? Do you think they've done enough? Do you think nothing more could have been done?

Because whatever they've done hasn't had the desired effect.

They have taken more than enough actions to fix the midfield; they drafted Shuey, Gaff, Sheed and Duggan, traded in Redden, Mitchell, Jetta, Wellingham, made a grand final. All seemed like good decisions at the time. In hindsight, it was just short of enough to win a grand final.

Could they have picked differently? Sure, if they'd picked Fyfe, maybe we would have won the grand final. But no one can point to the decision made back then and say it was obviously a dud call at the time.

You're a sky is falling type. Making a grand final is failure to you, whereas most would say they did something right. Having fallen short, they are now making new decisions and you're still complaining without knowing what the results will be.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

They have taken more than enough actions to fix the midfield; they drafted Shuey, Gaff, Sheed and Duggan, traded in Redden, Mitchell, Jetta, Wellingham, made a grand final. All seemed like good decisions at the time. In hindsight, it was just short of enough to win a grand final.

If they've done enough, why is the midfield still the glaring weakness?

Could they have picked differently? Sure, if they'd picked Fyfe, maybe we would have won the grand final. But no one can point to the decision made back then and say it was obviously a dud call at the time.

I haven't said anything about Fyfe.

This is just another strawman argument.

You think WC have done enough to fix the midfield, even though it remains the glaring weakness after several years. Go figure.

You're a sky is falling type.

By pointing out that the midfield has been the weakness for several years?

I'd suggest that makes me a "sky is blue" type. If you want to tie yourself in knots to avoid the obvious, that's up to you.

Making a grand final is failure to you, whereas most would say they did something right. Having fallen short, they are now making new decisions and you're still complaining without knowing what the results will be.

More bullshit. The fact you need to make up these absurd statements suggests you know you have a shitty argument.

We had a great season in 2015. But the two years since have been wasted and we appear to be going backwards.

 

[picko]

Happens a fair bit in Derbys as it is.

Well played

 

[refresh]

So you think Freo will tank again and finish 18th in 2018?

It is one way to rebuild I suppose.........just not the West Coast way.

Culture!!

I guess you have forgotten 2010

 

[Steinfreo]

I was wondering some time ago if AFL players get tax free travelling allowances outside the salary cap?

Those who travel more get more.

Well need 20 years of Victorian Premierships before that happens.

 

[kranky al]

Well need 20 years of Victorian Premierships before that happens.

End of the day our guys put a lot more hours in than theirs.

That time should be recompensed.

 

[Obeanie1]

I guess you have forgotten 2010

What happened in 2010?

 

[RookiePick]

I guess you have forgotten 2010

And 2011?

 

[Obeanie1]

If they've done enough, why is the midfield still the glaring weakness?

I haven't said anything about Fyfe.

This is just another strawman argument.

You think WC have done enough to fix the midfield, even though it remains the glaring weakness after several years. Go figure.

By pointing out that the midfield has been the weakness for several years?

I'd suggest that makes me a "sky is blue" type. If you want to tie yourself in knots to avoid the obvious, that's up to you.

More bullshit. The fact you need to make up these absurd statements suggests you know you have a shitty argument.

We had a great season in 2015. But the two years since have been wasted and we appear to be going backwards.

Isn't Hawthorn also going backwards since 2015? That's how the premiership cycle works isn't it?

Because we don't tank we finish just in the eight and miss out on the top draft picks.

Because we are based in WA many top players are not interested in relocating here. Lucky Geelong, Hawthorn.

We have drafted and traded in a lot of mids, some are finally going to get a chance to play midfield consistently. Duggan, Venables, Partington and Redden. Ainsworth, Petrucelle and Brayshaw we will see in the next 2-3 years.

Sure our recruiters seem to have a great eye for talls later in the draft but not so much for picking midfield 'diamonds in the rough' with later picks.

But our list and club are not a basket case. Is our list a total failure?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Isn't Hawthorn also going backwards since 2015? That's how the premiership cycle works isn't it?

Do you think a comparison with Hawthorn flatters WC?

Hawthorn won three flags and then aggressively turned the list over when they realised they had done their dash.

If WC had done a better job of addressing the weakness in the midfield, they could be well and truly still contending.

Surely our list management strategy should be geared around challenging while we still have an elite key forward in Kennedy. In other words, there is no reason we should have gone backwards since 2015, whereas Hawthorn going backwards in that period was entirely understandable.

Because we don't tank we finish just in the eight and miss out on the top draft picks.

Because we are based in WA many top players are not interested in relocating here. Lucky Geelong, Hawthorn.

We have drafted and traded in a lot of mids, some are finally going to get a chance to play midfield consistently. Duggan, Venables, Partington and Redden. Ainsworth, Petrucelle and Brayshaw we will see in the next 2-3 years.

Sure our recruiters seem to have a great eye for talls later in the draft but not so much for picking midfield 'diamonds in the rough' with later picks.

This is just another variation on "we couldn't have done any more".

Judge the result.

But our list and club are not a basket case. Is our list a total failure?

I didn't say the whole list was terrible. My criticism is about the failure to fix the midfield.

 

[kranky al]

For the people who wring their hands and say we couldnt have done any more

Yes we could.

Start by figuring out who out of all the recruiters in the afl - is the best at identifying midfield talent as well as whos next best

And throw a tonne of coins at them to come here.

Because the guys we have are really good at talls - not so good at mids

 

[Obeanie1]

For the people who wring their hands and say we couldnt have done any more

Yes we could.

Start by figuring out who out of all the recruiters in the afl - is the best at identifying midfield talent as well as whos next best

And throw a tonne of coins at them to come here.

Because the guys we have are really good at talls - not so good at mids

You can always do better, thats a given.

Our last list cull and draft was something very different from previous drafts. What threw a spanner in the works was O Allen still being there at 21. I think we were lining up Kelly but went WTF Allen hasn't gone?

If anyone is surprised on way we have attempted to do over the past 4 years and what we are now moving towards doing doesn't understand list management and list cycle.

 

[kranky al]

You can always do better, thats a given.

Our last list cull and draft was something very different from previous drafts. What threw a spanner in the works was O Allen still being there at 21. I think we were lining up Kelly but went WTF Allen hasn't gone?

If anyone is surprised on way we have attempted to do over the past 4 years and what we are now moving towards doing doesn't understand list management and list cycle.

Im really happy with the last draft.

Given the circumstances i dont think we could have done any better.

I think we went balls out to snare some mids later in the draft - but covered ourselves - in the event noone weve drafted / traded turns out to be the midfield messiah.

I have absolutely zero worries about our guys recruiting talls - we are one of the best clubs in the league at doing so and developing them.

We have either drafted who we need in the midfield - and they come on - or we have planted the seeds for the next spine.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

If anyone is surprised on way we have attempted to do over the past 4 years and what we are now moving towards doing doesn't understand list management and list cycle.

If you want to talk about "list cycles", we have a mature list and should be contending. It'll get much harder once Kennedy goes.

So yeah, if you're all about list cycles, in that window of 2015 to now we should have been busting our balls to give ourselves the best chance with Kennedy still there. That would involve acting aggressively to fix the midfield. But we haven't done that.

 

[Scotland]

What do Hawthorn have to do with anything? They won 3 flags in a row, 4 if you go back a further 5 years where a bunch of key players were involved.

Our problem isn't just the midfield, it's the top end of the midfield. Nothing wrong with Priddis, Rosa, Scott Selwood, Redden, Shuey, Gaff - whoever. Every premiership team has players around this level.

In the mid 2000s we had Judd and Cousins who won multiple AA jumpers, Kerr who won one and was runner up in the Brownlow twice and even Chad Fletcher won an AA jumper. Embley, Braun, Stenglein, RoJo and Adam Selwood were a great support cast. Since Kerr on 2007 we've had Priddis and Gaff get one AA jumper each in a decade and both have been criticised for their deficiencies. Shuey has been our best for a few years but most people would have him on the cusp of a top 20 mid in the comp at best. If we had another Shuey or another player better than Shuey then it changes the dynamic. Redden, Jetta, Wellingham are/were all decent players but none were ever going to come in and be our #1 mid which is what we have needed.

We've had a couple of cracks at top end talent in that time but none have worked out. Masten was pick 3 in 2007 and is a potato. Danger would've made a difference, but pick 3 to pick 10 is a fair drop. Naitanui was pick 2 in 2008, happy with that call. 2009 our chance at top end talent was to tank and get two early picks which we didn't do. Sheppard is OK but again pick 7 down to pick 20 (Fyfe) is a big drop. Gaff was pick 4 in 2010 and has been pretty good but isn't a game breaker. Our best pick since has been 6 in 2013 which we swapped for Yeo and Sheed. Happy with that result. I would've like to see us be a bit more aggressive when GWS had mini draft picks on offer as they were effectively extra early picks that they couldn't keep. Adelaide traded pick 10 and a compo pick to get pick 2 and Luke Brown, so it wasn't just Melbourne/GC/GWS shuffling top 5 picks between each other.

Pleasingly we're actually seeing a bit of change this year. Priddis and Mitchell were going to go soon anyway at their age, and we've let go Wellingham and Hill who have always around the side and underwhelming. I'm hopeful that Masten, Redden, Jetta will get the same treatment once they are out of contract if they continue to be underwhelming.

 

[dajesmac]

I'm fairly comfortable that the club recognised the midfield ineptitude and has been sufficiently proactive in addressing it. It's the execution of that strategy which has seen us continue to fall short in that part of the ground. Between 2007 and 2017, WC took a midfielder (or utility player with the intention of turning them into a midfielder) either with their first pick or in the first round.

07: Masten (Craverage)
08: Shuey (Priority pick after NN, a definite tick)
09: Sheppard (a failed mid)
10: Gaff (Quality but one-dimensional)
11: Newman (Talented but mentally wasn't up to it)
12: Hutchings (Meh)
13: Sheed (Promising but not a top-liner)
14: Duggan (Not a midfielder's butthole)
15: Partington (Doesn't appear to be internally rated and has been pushed to a flank)
16: Venables (Finally a potential star)

They also traded first rounders for Wellingham & Redden and brought across Yeo and Ah Chee as potential mids.

I'm not entirely sure what more could have been done - I suppose it would've been ideal if Rockliff or Kennedy had nominated WC. That being said, you cannot deny the abject failure of the club's plan to build an elite midfield despite clearly focusing their energies toward it.

The sad reality is even going forward we don't have much to show for it. Of our Under 25 midfielders, only Sheed and Venables look like they could be the necessary level of quality. We added 5 top 38 picks last year but I just wish at least one of our top 3 picks had been a midfielder. Instead we have to hope Ainsworth or Brayshaw unexpectedly become stars, or that Oscar Allen and/or Jack Petrucelle transition their games effectively to being midfielders.

I'm a believer that we don't need to go through a dramatic rebuild, but I'm starting to think we need to pull a midfield rabbit out of the hat if we're to avoid facing the same issues again in 4-5 years.

 

[Obeanie1]

If you want to talk about "list cycles", we have a mature list and should be contending. It'll get much harder once Kennedy goes.

So yeah, if you're all about list cycles, in that window of 2015 to now we should have been busting our balls to give ourselves the best chance with Kennedy still there. That would involve acting aggressively to fix the midfield. But we haven't done that.

What do you mean 'act aggressively'?

 

[kranky al]

I'm fairly comfortable that the club recognised the midfield ineptitude and has been sufficiently proactive in addressing it. It's the execution of that strategy which has seen us continue to fall short in that part of the ground. Between 2007 and 2017, WC took a midfielder (or utility player with the intention of turning them into a midfielder) either with their first pick or in the first round.

07: Masten (Craverage)
08: Shuey (Priority pick after NN, a definite tick)
09: Sheppard (a failed mid)
10: Gaff (Quality but one-dimensional)
11: Newman (Talented but mentally wasn't up to it)
12: Hutchings (Meh)
13: Sheed (Promising but not a top-liner)
14: Duggan (Not a midfielder's butthole)
15: Partington (Doesn't appear to be internally rated and has been pushed to a flank)
16: Venables (Finally a potential star)

They also traded first rounders for Wellingham & Redden and brought across Yeo and Ah Chee as potential mids.

I'm not entirely sure what more could have been done - I suppose it would've been ideal if Rockliff or Kennedy had nominated WC. That being said, you cannot deny the abject failure of the club's plan to build an elite midfield despite clearly focusing their energies toward it.

The sad reality is even going forward we don't have much to show for it. Of our Under 25 midfielders, only Sheed and Venables look like they could be the necessary level of quality. We added 5 top 38 picks last year but I just wish at least one of our top 3 picks had been a midfielder. Instead we have to hope Ainsworth or Brayshaw unexpectedly become stars, or that Oscar Allen and/or Jack Petrucelle transition their games effectively to being midfielders.

I'm a believer that we don't need to go through a dramatic rebuild, but I'm starting to think we need to pull a midfield rabbit out of the hat if we're to avoid facing the same issues again in 4-5 years.

What more could have been done?

Not deluded ourselves last year that we wus condenduhs and loaded up with mitchell and petrie.

Good start there

 

[dajesmac]

What more could have been done?

Not deluded ourselves last year that we wus condenduhs and loaded up with mitchell and petrie.

Good start there

How would that have improved the midfield? An extra rookie spot or two?

I'd rather have Mitchell as our midfield coach personally.

 

[Obeanie1]

I'm fairly comfortable that the club recognised the midfield ineptitude and has been sufficiently proactive in addressing it. It's the execution of that strategy which has seen us continue to fall short in that part of the ground. Between 2007 and 2017, WC took a midfielder (or utility player with the intention of turning them into a midfielder) either with their first pick or in the first round.

07: Masten (Craverage)
08: Shuey (Priority pick after NN, a definite tick)
09: Sheppard (a failed mid)
10: Gaff (Quality but one-dimensional)
11: Newman (Talented but mentally wasn't up to it)
12: Hutchings (Meh)
13: Sheed (Promising but not a top-liner)
14: Duggan (Not a midfielder's butthole)
15: Partington (Doesn't appear to be internally rated and has been pushed to a flank)
16: Venables (Finally a potential star)

They also traded first rounders for Wellingham & Redden and brought across Yeo and Ah Chee as potential mids.

I'm not entirely sure what more could have been done - I suppose it would've been ideal if Rockliff or Kennedy had nominated WC. That being said, you cannot deny the abject failure of the club's plan to build an elite midfield despite clearly focusing their energies toward it.

The sad reality is even going forward we don't have much to show for it. Of our Under 25 midfielders, only Sheed and Venables look like they could be the necessary level of quality. We added 5 top 38 picks last year but I just wish at least one of our top 3 picks had been a midfielder. Instead we have to hope Ainsworth or Brayshaw unexpectedly become stars, or that Oscar Allen and/or Jack Petrucelle transition their games effectively to being midfielders.

I'm a believer that we don't need to go through a dramatic rebuild, but I'm starting to think we need to pull a midfield rabbit out of the hat if we're to avoid facing the same issues again in 4-5 years.

2018
Gaff goes as a FA in 2018 = top 10 pick draft best mid,
Gold Coast 2nd rounder best mid
WC 2nd rounder best ruck

2019
Throw kitchen sink at Coniglio as a fa. If we need to get dirt on him and blackmail him (aka being more aggressive )
1 st round trade to GC for C Ah chee or Martin - HF / Mid
2nd rounder best mid

2020
In contention in Kennedy's final year aged 33.