Society/Culture What makes a man a man?

[Gethelred]

you are thinking in absolutes. Think in probabilities or distributiions. Actions of Manliness isnt defined by no women being good or enjoying it. It can be defined as a far greater proportion of men being capable/enjoying it then women.

And you are saying that an act that makes you feel like a man can be experienced and enjoyed by women.

This is silly. I feel stupider for entering this thread.

 

[ShanDog]

I'm going to go with the very scientific nah.

What they are doesn't matter as much as who they are. We spend too much time putting ourselves and other people into categories anyway.

But this isn't about categories and abstract ideas - it's material reality. I like the idea of doing away with rigid ideas about it in our society, but since when has basing a way of life or philosophy on ignorance been a good thing or worked out well?

 

[ferball]

And you are saying that an act that makes you feel like a man can be experienced and enjoyed by women.

This is silly. I feel stupider for entering this thread.

Watch the Frans de Waal video I posted on page three (the Chimp one). It'll fix that.

 

[Gethelred]

But this isn't about categories and abstract ideas - it's material reality. I like the idea of doing away with rigid ideas about it in our society, but since when has basing a way of life or philosophy on ignorance been a good thing or worked out well?

Biological sex is material reality. Gender is not. This thread is not about biology.

 

[ShanDog]

Biological sex is material reality. Gender is not. This thread is not about biology.

They are not opposite sides of a coin. It's more like a Venn Diagram with notable overlap. You can't disregard biology altogether when discussing gender. Otherwise, for example, the whole concept of someone being transgender falls down completely.

 

[Gethelred]

They are not opposite sides of a coin. It's more like a Venn Diagram with notable overlap. You can't disregard biology altogether when discussing gender. Otherwise, for example, the whole concept of someone being transgender falls down completely.

Not really. It is true to say that biological sex influences gender, but the inverse is not true. Biological sex does not determine gender, either. So, if there is a link, its negligible.

The concept of transgenderism is another need to put people in a box. It's unnecessary. 'I'm a man, and I see myself as a man, and I'm going to do as much as I can to be a man, up to and including surgery.' Their gender is not their biology.

Their gender is who they are, contrasted to what they are.

 

[ShanDog]

It is true to say that biological sex influences gender

That's what I have been saying.

The concept of transgenderism is another need to put people in a box. It's unnecessary. 'I'm a man, and I see myself as a man, and I'm going to do as much as I can to be a man, up to and including surgery.' Their gender is not their biology.

The gender is not their biology? It's not all it is, sure, but that statement is immediately called into question by your own previous sentence which suggests that surgical change to alter physiology is significant - perhaps even the ultimate change.

 

[ShanDog]

By the way Gethelred, I'm not sure it needs mentioning but I will anyway - I'm not at all trying to have a go at you or find a gotchya moment. Just trying to figure it all out.

 

[Gethelred]

By the way Gethelred, I'm not sure it needs mentioning but I will anyway - I'm not at all trying to have a go at you or find a gotchya moment. Just trying to figure it all out.

No, I got that.

That's what I have been saying.

What I'm saying is that it's an overhyped connection, and is seen as thoroughly more important than is should be.

The gender is not their biology? It's not all it is, sure,

... there we go.

.. but that statement is immediately called into question by your own previous sentence which suggests that surgical change to alter physiology is significant - perhaps even the ultimate change.

Nope. That's them doing what they can to force biology to reflect gender, which is their choice. Over time, we as a species might get better at allowing sex changes, but at the moment it's imperfect as a process goes.

The only way for gender to change biology is through artificial means. I do not see how that is incompatible with what I was saying before.

A caveat: this is an imprecise area. I'm certainly not going to run down the street or put in a tweet the fact that I think a transgender woman is biologically a man, because a tweet or the side of the road doesn't do the subject justice or add any degree of nuance and that'd be an oversimplification of my thoughts. But there's so much whistling in this area from all directions that the respect goes missing, which is more or less the point of what I'm saying.

What is it about their near unalterable biology that makes it more important than who they choose to be?

 

[ShanDog]

That's them doing what they can to force biology to reflect gender, which is their choice.

And that's exactly why I think it's important to figure out why. Is it because of social pressures? Is it that sex and gender are more closely related than people want to admit? A little of columns A through to Z?

 

[Gethelred]

And that's exactly why I think it's important to figure out why. Is it because of social pressures? Is it that sex and gender are more closely related than people want to admit? A little of columns A through to Z?

I think we're unlikely to solve that without actually having someone who's trans in this thread (probably yelling at me for a little bit!) or on BF period.

We ask why a little too much sometimes. Not everything has to make sense right now, and I say that as someone who has and has always had an incredible thirst for more knowledge and understanding of everything around me.

Why isn't useful unless it can denote an alternate path for behaviour, and I don't think it can accomplish that. Not when the answer there is just to let people live.

 

[Seeds]

Describing a thought process or action as stupid is not a personal insult. Its a description of a behaviour as being stupid. Not a statement about that person who is displaying the behaviour as being stupid. Please dont confuse the two as Its not only factually wrong but its insulting.

describing a thought process as being stupid is also a transfer of knowledge (or at least an attempt to do so) when reasons are provided as to why something is stupid. the very process of argument and reason is the process of rejecting ideas as being stupid and accepting those that are not.

 

[ShanDog]

I think we're unlikely to solve that without actually having someone who's trans in this thread (probably yelling at me for a little bit!) or on BF period.

We ask why a little too much sometimes. Not everything has to make sense right now, and I say that as someone who has and has always had an incredible thirst for more knowledge and understanding of everything around me.

I should clarify, I meant to ask why we - as in 99% or more in society - shape our appearance to match a shared understanding of what male and female should look like. I didn't mean "Why do trans people change their appearance?"

 

[ShanDog]

Describing a thought process or action as stupid is not a personal insult. Its a description of a behaviour as being stupid. Not a statement about that person who is displaying the behaviour as being stupid. Please dont confuse the two as Its not only factually wrong but its insulting.

describing a thought process as being stupid is also a transfer of knowledge (or at least an attempt to do so) when reasons are provided as to why something is stupid. the very process of argument and reason is the process of rejecting ideas as being stupid and accepting those that are not.

You were trying to insult the poster in an indirect way. Don't insult my intelligence by pretending otherwise.

 

[Gethelred]

I should clarify, I meant to ask why we - as in 99% or more in society - shape our appearance to match a shared understanding of what male and female should look like. I didn't mean "Why do trans people change their appearance?"

Is 'because we're a social species' too simplistic?

I really think it's that simple. We've got tradition stuck on top of trends and intercommunication millennia old coupled with survival imperatives that are being met easily and extended lifetimes that have caused us to multiply and to mean that where there might once have been one or two people within a community that were different now there are thousands, millions of them. And all of them can talk on the internet.

We are attracted to others like ourselves. We actively seek community. And over time, that community grows, it develops its own culture and subcultures and countercultures. I rather think we shape our appearance/identity to shape our culture more than our gender, anyway; look at the supposed examples of manliness in this thread. The vast majority of the experiences evinced to make one feel like a man are Australianisms, or at the very least are Australian conceits.

We conform, because if we don't we are alone. It doesn't even have to be an active process.

 

[ferball]

Anyway, as an aspiring alpha male primate I feel that empathy and a fierce sense of fair play and an instinct for social justice are vital parts of being a man. As vital as being able to kick all your arses and have people willingly follow me into the gates of hell.

Just like my chimp cousins.

 

[RudyBlue]

What about dick and balls

 

[Gethelred]

Anyway, as an aspiring alpha male primate I feel that empathy and a fierce sense of fair play and an instinct for social justice are vital parts of being a man. As vital as being able to kick all your arses and have people willingly follow me into the gates of hell.

Just like my chimp cousins.

Another phrase I wish would go the way of the dodo.

It's stupid. If you need to say that you're aspiring to being an alpha, it means you're not an alpha. You can behave like an alpha, but you're still not. You can pull chicks like an alpha, but you're not. You can own all in ****ing sundry, but you're still not alpha. You can kick the shit out of Conor McGregor, but you're still not alpha.

Depict being Alpha for me. Do so in the narrowest fashion you can imagine. Chances are, someone will disagree with your definition upon reading. Being Alpha is less about other people and more about dissatisfaction within yourself. To want to be Alpha is to admit you're not happy. It's a cry for help through being a ********.

 

[ferball]

Another phrase I wish would go the way of the dodo.

It's stupid. If you need to say that you're aspiring to being an alpha, it means you're not an alpha. You can behave like an alpha, but you're still not. You can pull chicks like an alpha, but you're not. You can own all in ******* sundry, but you're still not alpha. You can kick the sh*t out of Conor McGregor, but you're still not alpha.

Depict being Alpha for me. Do so in the narrowest fashion you can imagine. Chances are, someone will disagree with your definition upon reading. Being Alpha is less about other people and more about dissatisfaction within yourself. To want to be Alpha is to admit you're not happy. It's a cry for help through being a ********.

An alpha male is a pack leader.

By definition every pack has one at any time.

They change with time. Watch the chimp video. Really ... you will learn heaps including the facts that alpha males in chimp societies exhibit the highest levels of empathy and compassion of any males in the group except perhaps the lowest status ones, they maintain their position thru incredibly scrupulous behaviour. They don't favour their friends in dispute resolution situations they do the "right thing" and have a bias toward the underdog.

Well you might not learn them anymore cos I just brought them up but that video shows the evolutionary biologist who did most to popularise the term alpha male criticising its modern use while providing examples of leadership in chimpanze societies that put our leaders to shame. Given what I just quoted you saying in this post, I reckon you'd find alot to agree with in that video.

Understand this isn't some opinion based bullshit about how humans should act. This is an evolutionary biologist describing the dynamics of chimpanzee societies using the term "alpha" to refer to the male, or female cos that happens too, who is in charge.

I'm not an aspiring alpha either, that was a rhetorical trick to try and get some of the less open minded people reading this to think about things from a different pov. Tho technically I am an alpha cos I'm the captain of a bush fire brigade. That means I'm responsible for the safety and well being of all of my memebers, active fire fighters or not (and for getting what needs doing done.) And that is actually the real def of leadership, being responsible for the well being of others in your charge (or care). Its not necessarily a male thing but it appears to be an alpha thing across many species especially primates.

 

[Gethelred]

An alpha male is a pack leader.

By definition every pack has one at any time.

They change with time. Watch the chimp video. Really ... you will learn heaps including the facts that alpha males in chimp societies exhibit the highest levels of empathy and compassion of any males in the group except perhaps the lowest status ones, they maintain their position thru incredibly scrupulous behaviour. They don't favour their friends in dispute resolution situations they do the "right thing" and have a bias toward the underdog.

Well you might not learn them anymore cos I just brought them up but that video shows the evolutionary biologist who did most to popularise the term alpha male criticising its modern use while providing examples of leadership in chimpanze societies that put our leaders to shame. Given what I just quoted you saying in this post, I reckon you'd find alot to agree with in that video.

Understand this isn't some opinion based bullshit about how humans should act. This is an evolutionary biologist describing the dynamics of chimpanzee societies using the term "alpha" to refer to the male, or female cos that happens too, who is in charge.

I'm not an aspiring alpha either, that was a rhetorical trick to try and get some of the less open minded people reading this to think about things from a different pov. Tho technically I am an alpha cos I'm the captain of a bush fire brigade. That means I'm responsible for the safety and well being of all of my memebers, active fire fighters or not (and for getting what needs doing done.) And that is actually the real def of leadership, being responsible for the well being of others in your charge (or care). Its not necessarily a male thing but it appears to be an alpha thing across many species especially primates.

I got that you were being ironic. It's people looking at hierarchies in nature to justify the way they want to behave, or looking at what they feel are inadequacies within themselves and wishing they were otherwise.

 

[ferball]

I got that you were being ironic. It's people looking at hierarchies in nature to justify the way they want to behave, or looking at what they feel are inadequacies within themselves and wishing they were otherwise.

We are part of nature tho. We evolved, like all pack animals, to behave certain ways.

The thing about alpha males, and masculinity in general, is people not so much looking carefully or even looking at hierarchies in nature as being vaguely aware of them then making up a whole lot of bullshit to justify the way they behave.

Like this alpha and beta stuff. By definition the beta is the person (or monkey) who is looking to depose the alpha at the first opportunity but the way people go on these days you would never know that. They think alphas rule and betas are meek and weak when in reality the beta in a pack is the most dangerous to the alpha's position. Yet throughout this site people get called betas as if its some kind of put down that means they are inferior and will never be successful, when it usually means they are the future. Notice how similar this is to everyday or office politics. Which must be why so much of this crap about how to be an alpha includes things like "avoid office politics". Cos the people pushing it literally have no idea what they are talking about.

And from my reading that is the subtext of this thread and why it started. Its not so much what makes the man (clothes obviously) or makes a man a man as "This is why i'm an alpha".

Good point about people's percieved inadequacies too. But its hard to break free of that. We live in a society where everyday the constant messaging is "You aren't good enough" - its the basis of consumer culture.

"You aren't good enough as you are but if you buy this crap you will be."

From what I can gather tribal or what people call indigenous societies have this thing called initiation. And getting thru that makes you a man (or a woman but that's not my business). Nothing else.

Part of the process is scarring or genital mutilation or tattooing - making some permanent change to your body to signify a permanent change inside yourself - from childhood to adulthood. Part of it involves showing courage usually by experiencing pain from scarring or whatever and not sooking like a baby with teething pains. Part of it involves some form of simulated death where the candidate genuinely thinks they have died and gone to the land of the dead or whatever, usually because they encounter their ancestors and communicate with them. (This bit is controversial cos westerners think it isn't "objectively real".)

During or afterwards they learn about their responsibilities to their community (ie duty) as a man, and why its important they maintain their duties and carry them out. No doubt meeting your great, great, great grandad who has been dead for generations and hearing them say "I'm watching you and we'll meet again when you die properly so you better live right! But if its hard and you need us we'll always be here (and inside you.)" has a profound effect on young men in that situation.

There is very little of that in this thread even tho its how humans lived for tens of thousands of years, maybe more, at least according to most modern ideas about humanities origins.

 

[Gethelred]

We are part of nature tho. We evolved, like all pack animals, to behave certain ways.

The thing about alpha males, and masculinity in general, is people not so much looking carefully or even looking at hierarchies in nature as being vaguely aware of them then making up a whole lot of bullshit to justify the way they behave.

Yes, we are part of nature, but it is through our defiance of our own limitations that we are no longer a mere prey species in Africa, fleeing for the treetops the second an apex predator comes arunnin'. We might still have the side effects of having been a prey species for the longest time - why fear motivates us above and beyond all else, why taking risks comes second to perpetuating the status quo - but by and large we've moved beyond the overly simplistic pack social structures and basic hierarchies.

That's not to say hierarchies don't exist among humans, just that it's a hell of a lot more complicated than Alphas and Betas.

Like this alpha and beta stuff. By definition the beta is the person (or monkey) who is looking to depose the alpha at the first opportunity but the way people go on these days you would never know that. They think alphas rule and betas are meek and weak when in reality the beta in a pack is the most dangerous to the alpha's position. Yet throughout this site people get called betas as if its some kind of put down that means they are inferior and will never be successful, when it usually means they are the future. Notice how similar this is to everyday or office politics. Which must be why so much of this crap about how to be an alpha includes things like "avoid office politics". Cos the people pushing it literally have no idea what they are talking about.

And from my reading that is the subtext of this thread and why it started. Its not so much what makes the man (clothes obviously) or makes a man a man as "This is why i'm an alpha".

Good point about people's percieved inadequacies too. But its hard to break free of that. We live in a society where everyday the constant messaging is "You aren't good enough" - its the basis of consumer culture.

"You aren't good enough as you are but if you buy this crap you will be."

I am not a tall man. I am, at best, 5'4". I can be angry about this, compensate for it in other parts of my life; I can go out and hit on a thousand girls or boys, and bang those who will let me; I can own monoliths, testaments to my own inward feelings of inadequacy; I can do pretty much whatever I want, what I feel driven to move towards, to assuage my feelings of not being enough because of my height. I could be ****ing Napoleon - who wasn't even that ****ing short - and still feel like I'm not enough.

Or, I can recognise that this is not something that I can change. I am a product of my parents, both of whom were fellow shortarses. I can never feel intimidated by someone bigger than me, because I'm confident within myself and stubborn as a mule, and because I know if I don't want to move you ain't moving me.

Everyone feels inadequate for one reason or another. It is in how you choose to react to those feelings that decides what kind of a person you are, man or otherwise.

From what I can gather tribal or what people call indigenous societies have this thing called initiation. And getting thru that makes you a man (or a woman but that's not my business). Nothing else.

Part of the process is scarring or genital mutilation or tattooing - making some permanent change to your body to signify a permanent change inside yourself - from childhood to adulthood. Part of it involves showing courage usually by experiencing pain from scarring or whatever and not sooking like a baby with teething pains. Part of it involves some form of simulated death where the candidate genuinely thinks they have died and gone to the land of the dead or whatever, usually because they encounter their ancestors and communicate with them. (This bit is controversial cos westerners think it isn't "objectively real".)

During or afterwards they learn about their responsibilities to their community (ie duty) as a man, and why its important they maintain their duties and carry them out. No doubt meeting your great, great, great grandad who has been dead for generations and hearing them say "I'm watching you and we'll meet again when you die properly so you better live right! But if its hard and you need us we'll always be here (and inside you.)" has a profound effect on young men in that situation.

There is very little of that in this thread even tho its how humans lived for tens of thousands of years, maybe more, at least according to most modern ideas about humanities origins.

You've given this a great deal of thought, or at least have researched it a good deal more than I have.

I like the idea of a ritual to move from childhood to adulthood, but it kind of doesn't work in practice without some acknowledgement of something greater than yourself; otherwise, to what end are you changing your character and how you react and interact with the world? A secular ritual wouldn't do any better than the religious/spiritual ones; swearing oneself to their nation carries some pretty ordinary undertones, and swearing oneself to humanity is both too general and I'm inclined to take the piss out of it.

I really think the most human thing you can do is to go to someone when they feel alone, and to let them know they aren't. **** being 'a man'; I'd rather just be a human.

 

[ferball]

That's not to say hierarchies don't exist among humans, just that it's a hell of a lot more complicated than Alphas and Betas.

Totally. That's part of my point.

Everyone feels inadequate for one reason or another. It is in how you choose to react to those feelings that decides what kind of a person you are, man or otherwise.

I'm just like Homer Simpson. Self improvement has always been a passion. lol

You've given this a great deal of thought, or at least have researched it a good deal more than I have.

I like the idea of a ritual to move from childhood to adulthood, but it kind of doesn't work in practice without some acknowledgement of something greater than yourself; otherwise, to what end are you changing your character and how you react and interact with the world? A secular ritual wouldn't do any better than the religious/spiritual ones; swearing oneself to their nation carries some pretty ordinary undertones, and swearing oneself to humanity is both to general and I'm inclined to take the piss out of it.

Yeah I got interested by that stuff years ago. I've known indigenous people from alot of different places in and out of Australia and the similarities in that process are eye opening. There are very specific cultural differences too. But its a general similarity.

Anyway the whole thing about ancestors is interesting cos inside every cell of your body is a code unique to you that was first written at the start of life wherever and whenever that happened. Some people would say that is how you carry your ancestors with you. Everything that led to you is in total greater than yourself. So is the rest of the world.

Not to say we're worthless, far from it, more everything else has value too and the sum of it is pretty big.

I think its a human urge to connect and identify with something bigger than yourself or outside yourself. Even if its something you help build for the future, or especially that...

Also Bigfooty. We're all here cos we identify with a club we feel connected to for whatever reason.

 

[ferball]

I really think the most human thing you can do is to go to someone when they feel alone, and to let them know they aren't. fu** being 'a man'; I'd rather just be a human.

I like love this. I quoted it separately cos believe it or not its a big part of what has motivated my posting in this thread. All those alpha traits are alpha traits but not exclusively male ones.

But how is this... its also an important thing that alpha (males in chimp societies, females in bonobo societies) primates will do even tho they aren't human. From what I can tell they go out of their way to make sure no one in their society really feels alone.

Can't imagine [insert any so called alpha human here] doing that.

 

[ShanDog]

I see some value in it at times (particularly when discussing evolutionary forces), but I always cringe whenever human behaviour is compared to animals. I mean, chimps, yeah... Ok maybe, if it's a small evolutionary example. But still...

We aren't animals. I'll die on this hill and take anyone who disagrees down with me.