When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

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[Bjchan13]

He was on overs last year and is on overs this year. He will be on less than the AFL average over the next three and it’ll be a sweet deal, should we manage and use him correctly (I don’t have much faith).

It is hardly a ridiculous contract. Far more concerned about the cash paid to McGovern and Curnow. Curnow’s issues were unpredictable but they still hurt. It’s a lot of money tied into rehab.

It averages at 620k per season for 5 years. 700k if he hits certain triggers. You'd be expecting a lot more from him. McGovern is just taking the piss.

 

[citizen-erased]

Leaving aside the Pies, if you think you're a finals team, at least one of them right? Hard to make finals if you can only beat teams 9 and down (largely pointless too).

Realistically, they have enough playing talent to beat every team, but have probably the equal worst mentality in the league. Be curious what the review says the reason/s is/are.

I dont see that much talent there

Mckay, walsh and weitering are excellent
Cripps is a week to week prospect at the moment
Saad is a weapon, williams too sporadic

Rest of the list doesn't really scream "beat anyone"

Midfield is too shallow, need another kpf out there and a decent small fwd still

 

[freddy mercury]

Saad is getting paid 600k plus match payments and incentives.

Also at his third club in 7 years, looking for success. Wait until he wipes you like a dirty arse. He couldn't care less about the club or anyone, he will no have hesitations in leaving.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Tuohy is done.

Let's examine.

He's playing a mix of HBF and Wing in a top 4 side, and has been a great recruit. Still playing good football.
It hurts your case if he's 'done' because Tuohy 'done' is still getting more of the footy than two of your highly paid recruits in their prime.

 

[Rich01]

SOS left before he got sacked.
Trading and drafting a real deficiency over the last 6 years.

 

[maskmcgee]

Hard to make finals if you can only beat teams 9 and down (largely pointless too).

How many people actually expected Carlton to play finals? Because in the same segment they checked their preseason ladders and Carlton were right were everyone expected them. They pointed out the only people to expect Carlton to play finals were Carlton board members.

 

[Ambrosia]

Saad. 850k
Hind. 350k

What’s more concerning for Carlton is it seems a big part of getting Saad was telling him he wouldn’t have to play on any good forwards in a defensive role which means he doesn’t really fit alongside Williams let alone Docherty as well.

It’s obvious that 4 of Saad, Stocker, Williams, Newman and Docherty can’t all play in the same backline.

 

[Soapy V]

It’s not one person or one recruiting decision or anything similar

In the early 2000s we were broke and got done for cheating. Since then we have been a basket case with a toxic culture

Draftees don’t come on and develop and recruits don’t improve

Until the club addresses this from a football sense we will struggle. This review is absolutely vital and tough decisions and the right selections of people must be made

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

It averages at 620k per season for 5 years. 700k if he hits certain triggers. You'd be expecting a lot more from him. McGovern is just taking the piss.

Was on 600k a season at GC. Dogs and Bombers offered similar deals if not more over the years. I don’t think the deal is bad at all and if he hits those performance based triggers we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

To my eye he needs at least two weeks off and then staggered game time in the VFL. Playing him underdone does nothing for us. He can offer so much more than he is.

 

[Rich01]

Was on 600k a season at GC. Dogs and Bombers offered similar deals if not more over the years. I don’t think the deal is bad at all and if he hits those performance based triggers we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

To my eye he needs at least two weeks off and then staggered game time in the VFL. Playing him underdone does nothing for us. He can offer so much more than he is.

If the AFL average is $370k and he’s averaging $620k for 5 I think he’s laughing. I’m not sure he’s worth the average AFL wage at the moment.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

If the AFL average is $370k and he’s averaging $620k for 5 I think he’s laughing. I’m not sure he’s worth the average AFL wage at the moment.

I think he’s an above average AFL player and certainly an above average player at Carlton. Obviously came across in unique circumstances which impacts his contract value.

We aren’t getting the best out of him and for whatever reason we insist on playing him and others underdone. I’m confident he’ll prove his worth and he has already played some good footy for us. I can’t say the same for Gov and whilst ZW is a great player he’s on overs too.

 

[talkingparrot]

they’re absolutely tragic and I love it

 

[kaiserchief13]

SOS left before he got sacked.
Trading and drafting a real deficiency over the last 6 years.

What should his new nickname be? CRFS? Cant recruit for....

 

[Great8]

Those brave Blues have a soft run home according to some of their fans.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

They're 4 and 9 in a year they're supposed to be challenging top 8 (I can find multiple quotes from their supporters).

They lost to a soft West Coast team missing 6 of their top 10 players in a city WC hadn't won in since 1999.

Carlton aren't anywhere near arriving and won't be for another 3 years minimum.

They also keep paying overs for average players.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

I feel bad for them because you can’t see where the growth is coming from. McKay, Walsh, Cripps, Weitering are all playing relatively well. Even Williams, Docherty, Jones, Fisher and Owies are going okay.

It’s really down to Kemp and Curnow. If their bodies don’t come good Carlton could be heading for spoon competition again next year.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

It’s not one person or one recruiting decision or anything similar

In the early 2000s we were broke and got done for cheating. Since then we have been a basket case with a toxic culture

Draftees don’t come on and develop and recruits don’t improve

Until the club addresses this from a football sense we will struggle. This review is absolutely vital and tough decisions and the right selections of people must be made

Its a popular narrative and no doubt you Carlton supporters know the club better than me, but I don’t think it’s been toxic the whole time. 2011 stands out, Carlton won 14 games and were half a kick from a PF.

And it’s not surprising looking back, Judd Murphy Kruezer Walker Gibbs Simpson Yarra Betts Henderson Waite Garlett Jamison and Touhy were all on the list, not a bad core, and young.

The ten years since has certainly seen some extremely dodgy decision making and appointments.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

I feel bad for them because you can’t see where the growth is coming from. McKay, Walsh, Cripps, Weitering are all playing relatively well. Even Williams, Docherty, Jones, Fisher and Owies are going okay.

It’s really down to Kemp and Curnow. If their bodies don’t come good Carlton could be heading for spoon competition again next year.

Nonsense.

Walsh, Weitering, McKay, Owies and maybe Jones and JSOS are the only players who are playing about as well as you could expect.

Fisher, Saad, Williams, Curnow, Martin, Cripps, Doc, Martin, TDK, SPS, Stocker, Dow and Cuningham have plenty of improvement left in them whether it be through form, development or fitness. Gov, LOB and Setterfield are long shots at this stage but might find something in the right environment. Then there are the kids who we won’t even bother trying (Honey/Ramsey) or haven’t had the chance to try (Kemp/Philp/Carroll).

Nothing changes until we see improvements in coaching, conditioning and player development though. Listing names is a somewhat pointless exercise and we’ve been doing it for years. There is more than enough talent on the list.

 

[FreoRicci]

Im dead set terrified he will want to come home and we will have yet another treacle slow mid.

Redden is a far better acquisition at this point. Wouldn’t trade in Cripps to replace him.
Cripps looks awful. The game surely hasn’t gone by him that quick? Just slow, not overly tall and has such poor ball use.

 

[FreoRicci]

Nonsense.

Walsh, Weitering, McKay, Owies and maybe Jones and JSOS are the only players who are playing about as well as you could expect.

Fisher, Saad, Williams, Curnow, Martin, Cripps, Doc, Martin, TDK, SPS, Stocker, Dow and Cuningham have plenty of improvement left in them whether it be through form, development or fitness. Gov, LOB and Setterfield are long shots at this stage but might find something in the right environment. Then there are the kids who we won’t even bother trying (Honey/Ramsey) or haven’t had the chance to try (Kemp/Philp/Carroll).

Nothing changes until we see improvements in coaching, conditioning and player development though. Listing names is a somewhat pointless exercise and we’ve been doing it for years. There is more than enough talent on the list.

Sorry but saying most of those have improvement left in them is optimistically saying you hope they suddenly come good
Dow MAY have a pass mark since he’s only a few seasons in but Curnow hasn’t played for 2 years now, plus SPS? He’s a dud. Even coaches and fans feel so. The fact he’s not getting a game in a team that’s 4-9 is the answer.
Martin is what you get. He’s hot and cold. Thin body that’s easy to push over.
Cripps is looking awfully out of touch with today’s game.
Saad and Williams are exactly how they’re tracking when at their previous clubs. Absolutely ignorance to think that they’re capable of a higher ceiling. Why you think Essendon managed to pick up Hind and is already better then Saad? He’s just not that type of player for the salary.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Sorry but saying most of those have improvement left in them is optimistically saying you hope they suddenly come good
Dow MAY have a pass mark since he’s only a few seasons in but Curnow hasn’t played for 2 years now, plus SPS? He’s a dud. Even coaches and fans feel so. The fact he’s not getting a game in a team that’s 4-9 is the answer.
Martin is what you get. He’s hot and cold. Thin body that’s easy to push over.
Cripps is looking awfully out of touch with today’s game.
Saad and Williams are exactly how they’re tracking when at their previous clubs. Absolutely ignorance to think that they’re capable of a higher ceiling. Why you think Essendon managed to pick up Hind and is already better then Saad? He’s just not that type of player for the salary.

It’s not optimism or wishful thinking. A good 80% of our list would underperforming as it stands.

We aren’t getting enough out of them whether it be through form (Doc, Saad, Williams), fitness (Charlie, Cuningham) or development (Dow, SPS, Fisher).

Have a look at Melbourne’s improvement over the last 18 months. They’ve got most of their players on the park (step 1) and are playing to their strengths. They’ve made big changes to their coaching department and strategy. They’re also now the fittest team in the comp. The talent on the list hasn’t actually changed all that much. I’m not for a second suggesting we’re in for a Melbourne like rise to 1st but I’m sure we can be better than what we’re putting out as of now. Heck we ended 7-10 last season playing better football with a lesser list. McKay has improved out of sight yet somehow we’ve regressed. It’s almost impressive.

 

[The 747]

Tuohy is done.

That is the sort of thinking that shows why Carlton is where they are, and why Geelong is where they are. Every year.

 

[The 747]

Im dead set terrified he will want to come home and we will have yet another treacle slow mid.

Nah, in a good side, coached properly, he would be a weapon.

 

[The 747]

He was on overs last year and is on overs this year. He will be on less than the AFL average over the next three and it’ll be a sweet deal, should we manage and use him correctly (I don’t have much faith).

It is hardly a ridiculous contract. Far more concerned about the cash paid to McGovern and Curnow. Curnow’s issues were unpredictable but they still hurt. It’s a lot of money tied into rehab.

It's not a sweet deal, you have already paid him way more than he is worth. Martin is a below average AFL player.

 

[btdg]

I feel bad for them because you can’t see where the growth is coming from. McKay, Walsh, Cripps, Weitering are all playing relatively well. Even Williams, Docherty, Jones, Fisher and Owies are going okay.

It’s really down to Kemp and Curnow. If their bodies don’t come good Carlton could be heading for spoon competition again next year.

It is interesting to me that the external perspective is so heavily focused on the list. I don't think any Carlton supporter would agree, mainly because the players are so badly underperformed right now it is almost impossible to evaluate.

I'd argue you are totally wrong on every player listed except Walsh. McKay doing the Coleman but so down on confidence he won't take a straight set shot for goal and providing zero beyond the contest. The others:
- Cripps averaged 29.5 disposals, 6.5 tackles and just under 8 clearances in his last non-Teague season. He is a shadow of that now - 24 disposals, 5 tackles, 5.5 clearances.
- Weitering is awful. Does nothing to defend as a team. Neutralises his opponent, but is just never a ignited doing any of the things good defenders do - covering the goal line, providing a punch to support a team mate, even being a genuine attacking option.

Williams has been notoriously awful.
Docherty - has somehow turned into a fumbly Seagull who leaks goals. Many Carlton supporters want him dropped
Jones - continually leaks goals by being out of position. Finlayson kicked 5 last night without breaking a sweat
- Fisher has been injured for 9 weeks and since returning has been awful
- Owies doesn't even merit discussion.

Honestly, if those 7 players were playing 'relatively well' then this whole thread is different. But you can roll across the entire list and find players who are out of form and down on confidence.

Veterans: Saad, Ed Curnow, Martin, Casboult - all miles off their best, whatever you think thatvis

Younger players: SPS, Williamson, Dow, JSOS - have all been contributors at some point in the past and are unplayable bad now.

I think from the whole list you can say Walsh (last night aside), Pittonet, maybe pre injury Plowman are about the only players remotely near their best.

That's the incredibly frustrating thing. The coaching is just so, so bad. We leak easy goals, get 5 goals behind, will ourselves back into the match, then blow a chance or two, concede an easy one, and get beaten by 20-30 points. Every week.

I've seen list problems before at Carlton and it isn't that. The issue right now is chronic underperformance, underdevelopment, and a complete lack of confidence in the system structures and each other.